Adventure Gamers - Forums

Sefir - 13 December 2012 06:47 AM

Please, no more Monkey Kombat…

That’s just a case of poor design. If Monkey Kombat had been fun (like Insult Swordfighting) you wouldn’t have said anything…

CoyoteAG - 13 December 2012 11:06 AM

In a similar vein, I like when they show you if you are done with a location or not, like in GK2 when they would show you which locations still had essential tasks left.

Heh, Gray Matter did that too! Must be a Jane Jensen thing…

I can’t remember who said it now, but in an interview one of the writers on Escape from Monkey Island said that Monkey Kombat was pure filler and was only put in to make the game longer - based on this I don’t think anyone can safely say that this was a good feature.

The only amusing thing to come out of it was in an anecdote of mine…

I was playing escape on a particularly long train journey once, I know that to know all of the moves and what beats what etc you have to basically draw a pentegram with stances at each point and moves linking them together.

Having to draw a pentagram in full view of the rest of the train carriage must have looked quite strange to my fellow passengers. I had some funny looks thrown my way that day.

What i would really like to see is more dialog based puzzles.

Like in Culpa Innata og LA Noire, where you have to think about what questions you want to ask, and the NPC’s react to what you say, instead of the clasically “ask every question in the dialog tree”. Resonance and Diskworld Noir also had a cleaver dialog system with the short/long term memory in Resonance and the notebook/inventory questions in Diskworld Noir.

It is probadly not the easiest thing to implement, as you have to make sure the players don’t reach a dead end, if they ask all the wrong questions, and it migth not be suited for all games. 

Otherwise i agree with Badlemon, though i would like it to be a bit more than just an illusion of free will:

badlemon - 12 December 2012 04:29 AM

- Illusion of free will (multiple solutions to a puzzle; dialogue tree in which it matters what you are saying; clever conversation system like the short term memory in Resonance)

TimovieMan - 12 December 2012 04:21 PM

- Maps for easy traveling (that show all locations you’ve already visited).

Yes, I completely agree, along with other means of “fast travel” like clicking on the edges of screen… However, it got me thinking: Is it always necessary? Or more precisely - should game design prevent us from using it all the time in order for better experience?

Let me try to explain - most of LucasArts classics don’t feature the map that is accessible all of the time. Monkey Island features the map with already visited locations but you can access it only at certain screen exits. For example, you can’t access Scabb Island map while you’re at The Bloody Lip. You need to walk a couple of screens to the right to do so. So, would Monkey Island or other classics benefit from map that is accessible all the time, or would it take away something of its immersion? Of course, you can always say - it’s still optional, and you don’t need to use it if you don’t want it, but that kind of self-control is sometimes hard to players.

I think that, in general, we should not be able to access the map at EVERY screen, but it really depends of the game design. Also, A Vampyre Story has a very neat feature - as I recall, it doesn’t feature a map, but you can press Space for Mona’s “instant walk” to the desired spot.

Sefir - 13 December 2012 06:47 AM

Please, no more Monkey Kombat…

Like TimovieMan said - bad design. Or rather - it’s “overdesigned”. Monkey Kombat, at least to me, was fun to a certain point where they should have stopped, but they prolonged the same formula until the player grows tired of it.

CoyoteAG - 13 December 2012 11:06 AM

I know there are probably a group of people who will disagree with me, but I really like it when a game removes hotspots that are no longer needed.

I don’t disagree, but I’m not sure if I want to see it in every game - it’s a similar thing like what was done in Book of Unwritten Tales with cursor changing colors when it’s over a usable hotspot - a thing to make games “easier”, just like “show all hotspots” option. With “show all hotspots” feature there’s a choice whether you’ll use it or not, but with removing hotspots you’re ultimately making the game easier (also - shorter) because you leave yourself without some “red herrings” as well. Again, it all comes to a good design.

I agree with most of the above points.  There are a lot of good ideas here.  I’ll try to say something a little new rather than repeat.

I typically like Adventure - RPG Hybrids, so my list is oriented more in that direction.

Combat

I like to be able to engage in Combat in a game.  Part of this is the Free Will thing.  Part of this is that I grew up mostly playing Adventures with Combat elements like Quest for Glory, Action Adventures like Legend of Zelda, and RPGs like Final Fantasy.  I prefer Action Combat over Turn-Based, but that’s just me.  I have enjoyed both.

I seriously enjoyed Quest for Glory.  Trial By Fire had the best Combat System of the series, in my opinion, and AGDI did a great job of improving on some of the mechanics in their remake.  Infamous Quests has a decent concept for Combat in QFI (although we only have the Demo to go by), which seems based on QFG 4.  Himalaya Studios looks to be developing a great system for their Mage’s Initiation.

Stats are a little less important, although they make a great feature as well.  However, I don’t tend to enjoy games with too many Stats involved.  If there are Stats, they should be simple and streamlined.

Voice Acting

I don’t know if this is really a feature in the same sense, but when done well it can increase the immersion factor exponentially.  In some games, it has endeared me to characters I would have found otherwise boring.  And of course, always have the option to turn off Voice Acting.

Multiple Solutions

It’s been mentionned here, but I’ll say it again.  I like when there is more than one way to do something, and even better if there are multiple things that can be done multiple ways.  Quest for Glory had a bit of that, but it was mostly based on your Class.  You could do the same with a single character posessing all of the Class Skills.

Inventory

One of the things I like in a game is when you get items that are not specifically useful to the plot or puzzles.  Sometimes it’s a little keepsake or reward object, other games it’s some sort of decoy or red herring.  Sometimes they are simply Easter Eggs.

If it’s an Adventure Game (and most other games), you can be assured that the player will attempt to pick up everything.  Not every item needs to be a key, or solution to a puzzle.

diego - 16 December 2012 08:48 AM

TimovieMan - 12 December 2012 04:21 PM

- Maps for easy traveling (that show all locations you’ve already visited).

Yes, I completely agree, along with other means of “fast travel” like clicking on the edges of screen… However, it got me thinking: Is it always necessary? Or more precisely - should game design prevent us from using it all the time in order for better experience?

Let me try to explain - most of LucasArts classics don’t feature the map that is accessible all of the time. Monkey Island features the map with already visited locations but you can access it only at certain screen exits. For example, you can’t access Scabb Island map while you’re at The Bloody Lip. You need to walk a couple of screens to the right to do so. So, would Monkey Island or other classics benefit from map that is accessible all the time, or would it take away something of its immersion? Of course, you can always say - it’s still optional, and you don’t need to use it if you don’t want it, but that kind of self-control is sometimes hard to players.

I think that, in general, we should not be able to access the map at EVERY screen, but it really depends of the game design. Also, A Vampyre Story has a very neat feature - as I recall, it doesn’t feature a map, but you can press Space for Mona’s “instant walk” to the desired spot.

That’s why I mentioned Bethesda’s fast travel map. While inside a house/inn/store/dungeon/etc. you can’t fast travel anywhere. The second you get outside, though, you can fast travel to any (outdoor) location you’ve already discovered.

Think of it as not being able to access the map from inside the Scumm Bar, but being able to do so from just outside the Scumm Bar (thus not requiring you to first walk to the edge of town).

badlemon - 12 December 2012 04:29 AM

well most of the things I mentioned can be seen in a good RPG. So I can sum it up in the image of a clever non-battle hybrid between adventure and rpg, with a strong leaning on the adventure side. With all the karma, personal reactions from NPCs, non-linearity and so on.

TimovieMan - 12 December 2012 04:21 PM

(note: a few of these are present in most RPGs but could enrich the adventure genre)
...
Basically I want my games to be as varied as possible in terms of gameplay, and give you the illusion of free will as much as possible… which actually brings me close to actionless RPGs…

TerminusEst - 12 December 2012 08:13 PM

I would really like to see a mature full-fledged Western RPG (think Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment, The Witcher) with integrated hardcore adventure-game puzzles. Or, since this is an AG forum, an adventure game with fully-fledged RPG mechanics.

dactylopus - 17 December 2012 12:00 AM

I typically like Adventure - RPG Hybrids, so my list is oriented more in that direction.

I wonder how come so little developers go the adventure / RPG hybrid route.
Seems to me like there’s definitely a market for it…

TimovieMan - 17 December 2012 01:12 PM

badlemon - 12 December 2012 04:29 AM

well most of the things I mentioned can be seen in a good RPG. So I can sum it up in the image of a clever non-battle hybrid between adventure and rpg, with a strong leaning on the adventure side. With all the karma, personal reactions from NPCs, non-linearity and so on.

TimovieMan - 12 December 2012 04:21 PM

(note: a few of these are present in most RPGs but could enrich the adventure genre)
...
Basically I want my games to be as varied as possible in terms of gameplay, and give you the illusion of free will as much as possible… which actually brings me close to actionless RPGs…

TerminusEst - 12 December 2012 08:13 PM

I would really like to see a mature full-fledged Western RPG (think Fallout 2, Planescape: Torment, The Witcher) with integrated hardcore adventure-game puzzles. Or, since this is an AG forum, an adventure game with fully-fledged RPG mechanics.

dactylopus - 17 December 2012 12:00 AM

I typically like Adventure - RPG Hybrids, so my list is oriented more in that direction.

I wonder how come so little developers go the adventure / RPG hybrid route.
Seems to me like there’s definitely a market for it…

There certainly is, and I’m surprised that there haven’t been more of them.  But as I said earlier, there are a few on the horizon that look pretty nice.

It’s probably due to the difficulty of tackling a combat system and possibly adding stats, which increases the needs for programming quite a bit.  That, and a lot of Adventures just don’t call for violent action.

Oscar - 18 December 2012 12:35 AM

So I think we need to look into less features instead of more. Taking away the feature of automapping opened the way for a more exciting game.

Taking away too many features could easily lead to an unpolished appearance (especially today where disk space and PC requirements are less of an issue).
That’s why I’m definitely in favour of increasing the gameplay elements instead. You don’t want your game to be Arjen Robben a one-trick pony.
Making the map part of the gameplay instead of just a feature is a great idea, and I did acknowledge that:

TimovieMan - 12 December 2012 04:21 PM

Making the map an on-going game-element (like Miasmata seems to have done) looks interesting too.

Lots of good stuff here already and I’m mostly just repeating them.

Discworld Noir was really good at these things, the use of notebook was brilliant and the earlier mentioned gimmick on the spoiler tags there too. Wadjet Eye games have been using this notebook idea again (it’s surprisingly rare) even though in Resonance it was linked to memories instead of an actual book.

Gabriel Knight 1 type of conversation tree is very nice for games with lots of dialogue. Some other games have different kind of solutions (like using the items, or thoughts etc.) and pretty much anything makes the conversations more interesting that just clicking them away (or being able to “choose” from a couple of options and then clicking them away).

Maps and quick exits and stuff really smoothen the games, maps and diaries and such also paint you a better picture of the surroundings and events.

And the inventory items that were mentioned at the starting post. I really like to be able to look them up a bit closer, even when they’re not for puzzles. It’s really annoying to carry around stuff that have a two word tooltip and that’s it. But examining items more closely with zooming and rotating etc is really fun.

I personally also like a bit of extra “CSI stuff”. Like comparing fingerprints, licenseplates or scents to find out who they belong to and where they’ve been. Also the eavesdropping in GK3 was fun stuff. All this would preferrably be just volutary extra activities (except of course in games where you actually are that kind of detective).

Multiple solutions and alternate paths/endings can be fun but if these are implemented they should be thought out properly. All of them should be somewhat equally satisfying and logical.

I also like different kind of movement and interaction schemes. After some serious tweaking Dreamfall’s controls worked pretty close to some WASD action/rpg games which was actually quite nice for an adventure. The clumsy fighting wasn’t that good though. In Fahrenheit it was pretty fun to imitate swiping with a mop or a pouring a cup of coffee (but then again the quick time sequences and especially the left-right-smashings were mostly just pain in the butt). GK3 had also had a rather nice 3D moving scheme, you got into it rather fast, it worked pretty smooth and enabled a more thorough investigation of the surroundings, very nice.