[Rather Dashing]

From this Kotaku article. Specifically:

Originally Posted by Kotaku

[W]hen the jovial head of Paradox Interactive met me earlier this week in the Kotaku offices in New York City earlier this week, he said one game that was too hardcore for Paradox was called Señor Heinz.

"You're a German Nazi criminal who flees to South America to escape justice," Wester explained. It would have been an adventure game set in the world of Paradox's niche series Hearts of Iron. "The idea is pretty unique, but it was super-hardcore. Adventure games are a niche of the market and Hearts of Iron isn't huge."

Anyone think we should start a campaign to tell them that, hey, adventure games are totally awesome? Or should we just lament the loss of another video game due to "marketplace realities"?

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Official Forum Thread about the Interview

[Enter the Story]

This is why I'm not persuaded by the argument that all adventure games should have high res graphics and Hollywood production values. These things equal higher production costs, and studios cannot justify it.

If the Paradox game had a lower budget the story could be just as good, but it would actually get made. Then once people see the story and like it, that justifies a bigger budget for version 2.

[gray pierce]

I'm glad it wasn't realised. I think the idea is appaling! I don't like all those way too good guys in AGs but I think to cast the player in the role of a Nazi is just not something you want to do.

[Monolith]

^Ignorance is bliss. I think its quite an interesting take to play as a Nazi. It would give quite a unique experience and perspective in a game, without it relying on killing people *cough*COD*cough*.

The sad thing is, games that pit Nazi's and Allies against each other in a blood bath is more acceptable than a story driven thriller or adventure.

To be honest, I disagree with Enter the Story. This premise deserves a nice budget. A story is only as strong as its art direction.

[gray pierce]

Originally Posted by Monolith

^Ignorance is bliss. I think its quite an interesting take to play as a Nazi. It would give quite a unique experience and perspective in a game

Would you honestly like to be cast in the role of someone who believes his race is superior and others should be exterminated?

[SamandMax]

Originally Posted by gray pierce

I'm glad it wasn't realised. I think the idea is appaling! I don't like all those way too good guys in AGs but I think to cast the player in the role of a Nazi is just not something you want to do.

It is an appalling idea and I think that's the only way you could make it into a game: it has to be excruciating to play through. In 'I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream' one of the five characters you play as is a Nazi scientist but it's anything but enjoyable, it's designed specifically to be a torturous experience. If you're casting the player as a truly reprehensible character, you've got to be doing it because there are things you want to say about morality and ethics. It also helps if you're a brilliant writer like Harlan Ellison.

The fact that this planned game was called 'Señor Heinz' should have everyone's eyes rolling so hard they scrape their corneas off. Just from that short premise and title alone, it's clear on some level this was a gimmick, and this isn't a subject you can treat like a gimmick.

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by gray pierce

Would you honestly like to be cast in the role of someone who believes his race is superior and others should be exterminated?

So there is no story behind those that were forced into it or even give such a concept depth and personality? there is so much to work with. Life isn't so black & white.

Sure such a concept could be offensive to some, but leave out the fact that nazi's wanted to exterminate jews and we have pretty much every big country in the world.

BUT i'm not saying that playing as a nazi that kills jews would be a good idea, but I highly doubt that is the case for the story or game.

[bakana]

Originally Posted by gray pierce

Would you honestly like to be cast in the role of someone who believes his race is superior and others should be exterminated?

There are so many problems with this mentality.

1.) You are not "cast in the role" of an adventure game character. They are an independent story character over whom you exert some control. When Guybrush turns and makes an aside to the 'camera,' he is talking to you, the player, a separate person. In other media, you can read a book about Nazis, hell, you can even read 'Mein Kampf,' without completely identifying with the Nazis. Adventure games are no different in this respect.

2.) Even if you were to be 'cast in the role' of a Nazi, that certainly wouldn't be a bad thing. How many film and TV actors have been literally 'cast in the role' of Nazis? Did any of them become Nazis? Did any of them lament the experience? Of course not. It's an opportunity to explore a new and dark facet of the human experience.

3.) There are already plenty of games where you can play as Nazis, terrorists, or a fictional Nazi stand-in. These are mostly shooters, which tackle the subject with less nuance than an adventure game would.

4.) And perhaps most importantly, ignoring or glossing over difficult or disgusting parts of our human history is SIGNIFICANTLY more problematic and offensive than trying to face them and grapple with them in art and literature. If we relegate the Nazis to simply evil cartoon bogeymen, if we don't acknowledge and explore their humanity and the very real human situations and decisions that led to the adoption of National Socialism - then we deny the fact that this was something done by people, not monsters, we deny the fact that this is something people are capable of, and could happen again, and we tacitly invite such evil to recur.

[gray pierce]

Originally Posted by Monolith

So there is no story behind those that were forced into it or even give such a concept depth and personality? there is so much to work with. Life isn't so black & white.

I can only wholeheartedly agree with the last sentence. In fact I've been hoping for a long time for a game where you can also play as the villain but there is a difference between say a deranged serial killer or a white supremacist. And from what I've read this isn't one of the many Germans that were forced into commiting these heinous acts. The fact that he runs rather than face up to the facts gives me the idea he doesn't feel the slightest regret or remorse. And this is the main character, the guy we're supposed to be rooting for. Personally I'd let him be caught in the first scene.

Sure such a concept could be offensive to some, but leave out the fact that nazi's wanted to exterminate jews and we have pretty much every big country in the world.

Holland where I live might be the exception(and that's not even a big country) but generally in most countries there isn't an air of mentallity that says white people are suprme to all other races. Also Nazi's didn't just wanted to exterminate jews. They wanted to extermiante the disabled as well, homosexuals, pretty much every minority. That is a very frightening concept and definitely not suited for a game where you at least control the players actions.

Originally Posted by bakana

There are so many problems with this mentality.

1.) You are not "cast in the role" of an adventure game character. They are an independent story character over whom you exert some control. When Guybrush turns and makes an aside to the 'camera,' he is talking to you, the player, a separate person. In other media, you can read a book about Nazis, hell, you can even read 'Mein Kampf,' without completely identifying with the Nazis. Adventure games are no different in this respect.

With a movie or book you don't control the character's actions. To control the actions of a character to some extend makes you thiks character and I just don't want to be a white supremacist.

2.) Even if you were to be 'cast in the role' of a Nazi, that certainly wouldn't be a bad thing. How many film and TV actors have been literally 'cast in the role' of Nazis? Did any of them become Nazis? Did any of them lament the experience? Of course not. It's an opportunity to explore a new and dark facet of the human experience.

There's a difference between acting and playing a game. With acting it more becomes a sort of job, an intellectual exercise as well of course. You're very tense and focussed. Whereas with playing a game you're more relaxed and more enjoying the moment. More iportantly as an actor you're trying to analise the character, see what makes him tick. As a player you generally aren''t so analythical

3.) There are already plenty of games where you can play as Nazis, terrorists, or a fictional Nazi stand-in. These are mostly shooters, which tackle the subject with less nuance than an adventure game would.

First of all you don't know with how much nuance this adventuregame would've tackled this AG. Just cause it's an AG doesn't mean it's itelligent, deep and thought provoking. I also strongly oppose to those shooters. I think to get the player to kill as a Nazi is the worst decission you can make as a game designer.

4.) And perhaps most importantly, ignoring or glossing over difficult or disgusting parts of our human history is SIGNIFICANTLY more problematic and offensive than trying to face them and grapple with them in art and literature. If we relegate the Nazis to simply evil cartoon bogeymen, if we don't acknowledge and explore their humanity and the very real human situations and decisions that led to the adoption of National Socialism - then we deny the fact that this was something done by people, not monsters, we deny the fact that this is something people are capable of, and could happen again, and we tacitly invite such evil to recur.

I again wholeheartedly agree with the last part but this didn't sound like the kind of game that would dig into the characters deeper psyche. I think from your standpoint it very much is a good idea to humanise the Nazis what with right wing extremism on the rise in Europe. But again this sort of game is imo not the way to do it.

I must admit, I do come from a slightly personal standpoint as I'm part Jewish and have heard stories from my mother who in turn heard it from her grandparents. So not entirely personal but slightly yes.

[Monolith]

Yet I wouldn't mind a game where you play as a serial killer.

[gray pierce]

Originally Posted by Monolith

Yet I wouldn't mind a game where you play as a serial killer.

Please don't expect anything because it's very much in the early stages and I can't promise at all if it'll ever make it to a finished project, not to metion the time it'll take but I am currently writing up a doc for a game where you can do that(if only for a small part)

[rayvio]

Originally Posted by Monolith

Yet I wouldn't mind a game where you play as a serial killer.

Lucius?

[Monolith]

Originally Posted by rayvio

Lucius?

Yeah, it looks interesting, but I feel that it lacks any psychological intrigue or the like. It seems more like along the lines of the omen than anything else....but I'm still looking forward to it.

Originally Posted by gray pierce

Please don't expect anything because it's very much in the early stages and I can't promise at all if it'll ever make it to a finished project, not to metion the time it'll take but I am currently writing up a doc for a game where you can do that(if only for a small part)

Well I hope you find success in the project.



Anyways, I want to point out that I feel that thought provoking and borderline offensive films and games tend to win awards and honors because they tell us a story that generally goes untold because of taboo or being just plain offensive. Generally keeping it classy is what makes it work, else it just becomes an offensive mess.