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Adventure Game Scene of the Day - Wednesday 28 October

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The Deduction Space in Sherlock Holmes: Crimes & Punishments is an excellent idea - No doubt about that!

Whenever you find new clues or evidence they are added to the deduction space, where you have to connect it to the other clues and evidence, and make different tentative sub-conclusion. And when you have finally found all the evidence and clues, you connect all the different sub-conclusion and evidence, and are able to use your brilliant deduction skills to conclude who the killer must be, how it was done and what the motive was, no matter how improperly it might be.

The game is also divided into six separate cases, and it is entirely possible to make the wrong deductions and screw up the individual cases.

At least, that is the idea…

But as we all know, the devil is in the details and the execution…

And in praxis Frogwares completely screwed up the idea and executed it very poorly - at least that is my opinion.

The deduction space suffers from 3 major problems imo:

1) Extreme hand-holding and overly simplistic.
You can’t just connect any piece of evidence and clues with each other, instead they are automatically grouped, and pretty much all you have to do yourself is to choose between two different sub-conclusions. What is even worse is that if you pick a conclusion that is inconsistent with a piece of evidence or another sub-conclusion, then it will automatically be marked as red, telling you that some of your conclusions are wrong.

This means that as long as you find all the evidence, then it is practically impossible to get your final conclusion wrong. You can simply brute force it, and just click random conclusions until everything is green - At least you can do so in 5 of the 6 cases.

2) Disappearing evidence and sub-conclusions.
I remember one point where I had made a tentative conclusion based on some evidence, but I wasn’t 100% sure that it was the correct conclusion, so when I found a 3rd piece of evidence supporting this conclusion, I was very excited and rushed into the deduction space to add this evidence to my conclusion - only to find the previous evidence and my tentative conclusion had been completely erased from the deduction space Gasp Instead it had just been replaced by the new evidence Shifty Eyed

It’s like they were afraid that if the deduction space grew too large, with more than 10 “synapses” or so, then players would get confused and some might find it too difficult. But what was the point of adding it to the deduction space in the first place, if you are just going to remove it again later and replace it by new evidence?

3) Very selective about which evidence is added to the deductions space.
There is actually one case where it is entirely possible to get your conclusions wrong and end up accusing the wrong guy. No matter what you do then there will be contradicting evidence, and red synapses in the deduction space. In fact if you only look at the evidence added to the deductions space, then there is exactly the same amount of evidence pointing at all three of the suspects, making this case complete guesswork.

That is if you try to use the deduction space to solve the case!

In reality there is actually plenty of extra evidence pointing at one of the three suspects - But this evidence is never added to the deduction space!

So now I’m confused!
If the whole purpose of the deduction space is NOT to gather evidence and clues, and use it as a tool to deduce who the culprit is, and you in reality have to use the evidence not added to the deductions space to solve the case - what is then the purpose of the deduction space?
A gimmick?!?


Sherlock Holmes: Crimes & Punishments is a game I would really love to be able to love, and there is also a lot of good things to say about it, like the excellent graphics, the free roaming 3d direct control movement, relative large settings, and a couple of interesting cases - but puzzlewise it was a big disappointment.

     

You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ

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I agree completely… the deduction space is ingenious concept in theory, but the actual gameplay is just a continuation of the game mechanics that were almost brought to the level of banality, of which I spoken earlier.

     

Recently finished: Four Last Things 4/5, Edna & Harvey: The Breakout 5/5, Chains of Satinav 3,95/5, A Vampyre Story 88, Sam Peters 3/5, Broken Sword 1 4,5/5, Broken Sword 2 4,3/5, Broken Sword 3 85, Broken Sword 5 81, Gray Matter 4/5\nCurrently playing: Broken Sword 4, Keepsake (Let\‘s Play), Callahan\‘s Crosstime Saloon (post-Community Playthrough)\nLooking forward to: A Playwright’s Tale

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I generally liked that they took another stab (no pun intended) at the deduction board and tried to take it one step further from what they had done in Holmes vs. Ripper. As far as “Sherlock” (the TV show) rip-offs go, it certainly beats whatever the fuck Jane Jensen was trying to do in Moebius. However, you’re right that it ended up being a bit disappointing.

Still, I’m not sure I agree with (some of) your criticism. On the one hand, you don’t like that the game generally gives you enough evidence that there’s only one theory that will fit with everything. But on the other hand, you don’t like it either when the evidence on the board is not enough to determine unequivocally what the correct solution is. Make up your mind! Tongue

Personally, I’m definitely a proponent of the former option: if you’ve discovered all the evidence, there should only be one possible explanation, with no contradictions remaining. And I’m fine with the game pointing out those contradictions. Sure, you can brute-force the whole thing, but you can also solve inventory puzzles by clicking everything on everything; ultimately, if you want to ruin your fun, it’s your problem.

(One thing they could have done to increase the challenge, possibly as an option, would have been not to tell you when you’ve found all the evidence. So you can put together a theory that’s perfectly self-consistent, but ends up being wrong because you missed a clue.)

The alternative, i.e. having several equally-probable solutions, is something I intensely dislike. I think I remember that the case with the archaeologists, where you had to guess more or less at random whether the murder involved a silver knife or an ice knife, rubbed me the wrong way. (Also that case had that annoying puzzle with all the doors and the levers, that just wouldn’t end. Ugh.)

     
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Kurufinwe - 28 October 2015 01:01 PM

Still, I’m not sure I agree with (some of) your criticism. On the one hand, you don’t like that the game generally gives you enough evidence that there’s only one theory that will fit with everything. But on the other hand, you don’t like it either when the evidence on the board is not enough to determine unequivocally what the correct solution is. Make up your mind! Tongue

No, I think you misunderstood my first point.
I have no problem with there only being one conclusion that fits everything, what I do have a problem with is that they make it too easy for us to make that conclusion - that they give us too much help in the deduction space and tell us when evidence contradict our conclusions.

I want to be able to solve the cases using the deductions space, but I also don’t want it to be so easy that the game actually solves it for us and we don’t have to think for ourselves - No contradiction in that.

     

You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ

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what happened to good ol classic AGs puzzles, approximately what you are covering (AGs)  are 90%  from the past 5-6 years?
and here i was thinking if izno covering the only AGSotD day i was interested in taking,  it is like (as if it was) me handling it ..  or as the arabic saying goes “if you are the one whos doing it, its just as if me who done it”.

just shoot me,.

     
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Advie - 29 October 2015 03:39 PM

what happened to good ol classic AGs puzzles, approximately what you are covering (AGs)  are 90%  from the past 5-6 years?

Actually, I just counted them, only 48% are from the last 5-6 years!!!
Though admittedly only 24% are from before 2000, 28% from 2000-2008 and 48% from 2009-2015

My aim is actually a 50/50 spilt between old and new games, so, so far I am right on target Tongue

     

You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ

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Surely this game should be praised for its accurate portrayal of 19th century transportation. Historically accurate waiting times!

     
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Iznogood - 29 October 2015 06:05 PM
Advie - 29 October 2015 03:39 PM

what happened to good ol classic AGs puzzles, approximately what you are covering (AGs)  are 90%  from the past 5-6 years?

Actually, I just counted them, only 48% are from the last 5-6 years!!!
Though admittedly only 24% are from before 2000, 28% from 2000-2008 and 48% from 2009-2015

My aim is actually a 50/50 spilt between old and new games, so, so far I am right on target Tongue

Uhh, Statistics, you are very good at, and always win me by, but what is 2009-2015 to 1986-1999
............................Pan
...................good
...................I.............n
..................z..............o
, don’t you think that 50/50 or 24%/48% (if leaving those 28% aside) is so unfair, and it oughta be, 75%/1986-1999, 15%/2000-2008,10%/2009-2015.
but then o,u.g.h.t.a is so WROOONG to say, its your hand, your deal, but then you are not playing alone! maybe u.n.f.a.i.r is not so wrong to say afterall. eh? Tongue Crazy

     
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Iznogood is doing the Midweek Puzzle AGSotD every Wednesday (except on October 14th, what happened there?), and Iznogood gets to decide how he wishes to do it, and what games and puzzles he wants represented.
Stop harassing those that are making an effort for free.

     

The truth can’t hurt you, it’s just like the dark: it scares you witless but in time you see things clear and stark. - Elvis Costello
Maybe this time I can be strong, but since I know who I am, I’m probably wrong. Maybe this time I can go far, but thinking about where I’ve been ain’t helping me start. - Michael Kiwanuka

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Yeah, instead come and harass me, who despite doing a supposedly general freeware slot has posted only AGS made games for the entire time - except one non AGS game that chrissie snuck in! Tongue

     

3.5 time winner of the “Really Annoying Caption Contest Saboteur” Award!

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TimovieMan - 30 October 2015 05:06 AM

Iznogood is doing the Midweek Puzzle AGSotD every Wednesday (except on October 14th, what happened there?), and Iznogood gets to decide how he wishes to do it, and what games and puzzles he wants represented.
Stop harassing those that are making an effort for free.

HARASSING???!
we were havin fun, as you cant see. why did you have to make it look like something else completely,  please do your job administrating not getting in between others jokes that you have no idea about it or its background.

     
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Advie - 30 October 2015 06:56 AM

please do your job administrating not getting in between others jokes that you have no idea about it or its background.

As soon as you make it obvious that they actually were jokes in the first place. Until then, I’ll moderate.

     

The truth can’t hurt you, it’s just like the dark: it scares you witless but in time you see things clear and stark. - Elvis Costello
Maybe this time I can be strong, but since I know who I am, I’m probably wrong. Maybe this time I can go far, but thinking about where I’ve been ain’t helping me start. - Michael Kiwanuka

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TimovieMan - 30 October 2015 05:06 AM

Stop harassing those that are making an effort for free.

and
talking about free effort.. am i not doing free effort long before you had your badge in everyway (i made it)?

and how is that to make it look For YOU as joke.  more than the colours the pans.  the smileys and the tongue out exchange(s).
from the start to inxo reply to my 2nd post. and what was next you screwed and we would never get to see.

you had it so wrong this time, relax there is nothin wrong was going here at all.
,.

 

     
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Advie - 30 October 2015 07:14 AM

and talking about free effort.. am i not doing free effort long before you had your badge in everyway (i made it)?

What??? What does this even mean???


Actually, the thread was fine until you blew up with the ‘HARASSING???!’ (and the double edited one that I’ve deleted). Despite Intense Degree getting in another light post, YOU turned it sour, not me.
But it ends with this post. Any continuation of this gets deleted.

     

The truth can’t hurt you, it’s just like the dark: it scares you witless but in time you see things clear and stark. - Elvis Costello
Maybe this time I can be strong, but since I know who I am, I’m probably wrong. Maybe this time I can go far, but thinking about where I’ve been ain’t helping me start. - Michael Kiwanuka

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Is the deduction space similar to the evidence board in the Enigmatis games? I’ve not played this game. In general, Frogware’s games unfortunately push the motion sickness button.

     

For whom the games toll,
they toll for thee.

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@Advie: If you have some specific puzzles that you would like to see featured here, feel free to to PM me with suggestions. I might not use your suggestions, and I certainly won’t use them immediately, but if I like the suggestion, then I will add it to my (long) list.

rtrooney - 30 October 2015 10:25 AM

Is the deduction space similar to the evidence board in the Enigmatis games?

Ehh… kind of .. but not really Wink
The basic idea is much the same, but even though I found it too simplistic, then it is still much more advanced than in Enigmatis.

For example if you look at the half blue half white synapses, then it means that there is two possible different interpretations of the clue/evidence and you have to select the one you think is right, like:

thejobloshow - 29 October 2015 09:24 PM

Surely this game should be praised for its accurate portrayal of 19th century transportation. Historically accurate waiting times!

He he Grin The long loading times never did really bother me, I’m a patient man Innocent, and it was excellent opportunities to take a bio-breaks Wink

TimovieMan - 30 October 2015 05:06 AM

(except on October 14th, what happened there?)

Ehh… I kind of forgot about it, and didn’t realise that I had done so until the next Wednesday

     

You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ

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