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Adventure Game Scene of the Day - Wednesday 10 June
Midweek Puzzle
Today’s scene is from what is one of the most hated puzzles in the history of adventure games, and Dreamfall is a game that has taken a lot of flak because of its combat and stealth sequences.
That the combat has been criticized is understandable, because the combat is truly awful with clunky controls and whatnot, not to mention that adding combat or other dexterity based things in a type of game people play because they want cerebral challenges, is in general not a very good idea. Though there are in all fairness, only something like 2-3 mandatory combat scenes, whereas all the rest are optional or what happens when you fail at the main solution.
That is also have taken a lot of flak for the stealth parts is however something that I have never fully understood!
As far as I’m concerned stealth sequences is just another form for of puzzle. Unlike combat it doesn’t require any dexterity, but instead it requires that you meticulously observed your environment, the pattern and the timing of the guards/trolls/whatnot, where you can hide etc, then carefully plan how you will proceed and execute that plan. All things that require the use of your brain and not fast fingers, in other words just the kind of challenges we as adventure games love, right?
It is unfortunately also a type of puzzle that is very underused in adventure games. Apart from Dreamfall there are some other older games that also use it, but I can’t recall a single modern game with stealth sequences, perhaps because all the critique Dreamfall got has scared developers from using this type of puzzle?
Another interesting thing about stealth puzzles, is that they are a more “emerging” kind of puzzle. What I mean by that is that they are not designed in the same way as most puzzles are, where there is only the one solution that the designers have planned. Instead the designers just provide the mechanics of the puzzle, some patrolling guards, some items or shadows you can hide in, rules for how close the guards have to be to see you etc, and based on those mechanics there can be many different solutions to the puzzle, sometimes even solutions that the designers had never imagined let alone planned.
Personally I would love to see more of those kind of puzzles, not just stealth puzzles, but also other kinds of “emerging” puzzle, though right now I can’t think of a single other kind of puzzle, that works in this way.
One more small note: There has in recent years been a lot of talk about people wanting puzzles with multiple solutions - Well Dreamfall actually has 2-3 different solutions to many of its puzzles! Not all of them, but many, and for some reason I have never heard anyone mention it or praise Dreamfall for that?!?
And now to the actual most hated puzzle in the history of adventure games 
The puzzle itself is fairly simple. There are some signs that you have to arrange in a certain order based on clues found close by, simple enough! But to make things a little bit more difficult they are scattered around inside a maze, still not a big problem. But there are also some trolls patrolling the maze, which you have to avoid by hiding behind different boulders, and if anyone of those trolls spot you, they will call the big troll which will instantly kill you!
So the puzzle contains three of the most hatred elements in AG: A Maze, Stealth and Death!
For anyone who has been reading my many posts here in this forum, it shouldn’t come as a big surprise, that I love it and it is one of my all time favourite puzzles 
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
Yes Iznogood, I really hated that troll-cave stealth sequence & have to confess that albeit a puzzle in itself I still hated it!!! Otherwise I played the game on PC using a gamepad which I thought made the game easier to get through altogether & also to tackle some of the other stealth & combat sequences which I minded far less than that horrendous troll cave! 
This damn puzzle was the reason I never finished Dreamfall, you must be a masochist Iznogood 
Women come and go… a highscore lasts forever
I wouldn’t mind stealth in adventure games if it could be implemented in a logical way. But so often it isn’t. Barriers that seem as though they should give protection often don’t. The villain/security device can see you in many of the shadows and sometimes seemingly right through walls if you get anywhere near a corner. Then, at other times, you can walk out in the open and the villain/security device doesn’t realize you’re there. It leads to tons of trial-and-error, followed each time by dying, then starting over.
So what’s fun about that?
I wouldn’t mind stealth in adventure games if it could be implemented in a logical way. But so often it isn’t.
I agree here. Some recent games had some stealth sections - Murdered: Soul Suspect; Tesla Effect - and they were some of the weakest parts of those games. I think the problem is it’s just a little part of adventures and a game has to be designed with it in mind to work. Most of the times is clunky and frustrating.
Games from other genres that stealth is major part of it - Hitman, Metal Gear, Thief, Manhunt - they to work like puzzles in some ways but the range and options are much better because the game is designed that way.
Edit: About this scene in Dreamfall I can’t comment because I don’t really remember it 
This damn puzzle was the reason I never finished Dreamfall, you must be a masochist Iznogood
No Oscar is the Adventure Game Masochist - I just like a good challenge
Anyway I know that I’m the (extreme) minority here, and the funny thing is that I also didn’t really liked the puzzles on my original playthrough. Not so much because it had stealth but because I kept dying and thought it was too difficult. But on a later replay I was surprised at how much easier it was compared to how I remembered it, perhaps because I had played other stealth games in the meantime? And since then the puzzle has only grown on me.
I wouldn’t mind stealth in adventure games if it could be implemented in a logical way. But so often it isn’t.
The fact that it is not always implemented very well, doesn’t change anything about the puzzle type in itself, and you can find thousands of examples of other puzzles types like inventory puzzles, that are also poorly implemented.
In Dreamfall I actually though it was done very well, avoiding most of the problems you mention, and if you look outside of AG, then you can find examples where stealth is used in the game far better than in Dreamfall - The Deus Ex series just to mention one.
So what’s fun about that?
Taste differs!
Personally I like a challenge, even if it means that I can die and that I have to play the same sequence many times before I get it right.
Edit: Wilco just made a good point.
In order for something (not just stealth) to work properly, it has to be deeply embedded into the mechanics of the game, and if it is only used in one single sequence, odds are that it will feel more like something that has be slapped on, instead of a natural part of the game.
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
I’m not sure how you would differentiate stealth from evasion. Nor am I sure how you differentiate old v. modern games. But Pandora Directive, which I consider a fairly modern game, had plenty of both.
For whom the games toll,
they toll for thee.
BTW, I have arrived in St. Louis, MO. It’s a little after 9:00 as I’m able to get and reply from a Wi-Fi I can trust. Kind of a bittersweet stay. Plan on visiting the graves of my mother and father. I’ve not been here for a while. These two images were taken by the funeral director that arranged both burials. They are both buried at the Jefferson Barracks National Cemetery. I will see Mom and Dad tomorrow and then continue my way North.
For whom the games toll,
they toll for thee.
One more small note: There has in recent years been a lot of talk about people wanting puzzles with multiple solutions - Well Dreamfall actually has 2-3 different solutions to many of its puzzles! Not all of them, but many, and for some reason I have never heard anyone mention it or praise Dreamfall for that?!?
Dreamfall is one of my alltime favorite games and I was very happy they provided alternative solutions to avoid the annoying combat.
So the puzzle contains three of the most hatred elements in AG: A Maze, Stealth and Death!
That’s right! So why are you surprised people hate this puzzle? I hated it so much that it became a gamestopper. (I asked for a savegame at another forum.) I didn’t like the stealth sequences in Broken Sword 3 and the Tex games either, but this one… 
For anyone who has been reading my many posts here in this forum, it shouldn’t come as a big surprise, that I love it and it is one of my all time favourite puzzles
Good for you. Seriously. I might even envy you a little. 
Butter my buns and call me a biscuit! - Agent A
So the puzzle contains three of the most hatred elements in AG: A Maze, Stealth and Death!
That’s right! So why are you surprised people hate this puzzle?
I’m not - Never said a single word about being surprised that many hate this puzzle - In fact that is the very reason I chose this puzzle - And because I wanted to talk about stealth puzzles in general.
I’m not sure how you would differentiate stealth from evasion. Nor am I sure how you differentiate old v. modern games. But Pandora Directive, which I consider a fairly modern game, had plenty of both.
If you are thinking about the Roswell puzzle, then I would simply call it a timed puzzle, but The Pandora Directive indeed had a least one stealth sequence, in fact come to think of it, I believe all the Tex games has at least one stealth puzzle. And there are probably also other games that I have either forgotten about or never played, that also has stealth sequences - But I still think it is a very underused type of puzzle.
As for old/modern then in this context I would say pre and post Dreamfall.
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
I’m not - Never said a single word about being surprised that many hate this puzzle - In fact that is the very reason I chose this puzzle - And because I wanted to talk about stealth puzzles in general.
Okay, I’ll change it to: “Why don’t you understand that people hate stealth?” You did say that. So here’s my take on it: Stealth is about timing, just like the more complex combat. The timing turns stealth into action. It’s not a puzzle, no matter how hard you would like it to be, it’s trial-and-error + hand-eye coordination. It’s action.
I don’t mind stealth when it’s real easy, like in the recent Valiant Hearts. But I don’t consider Valiant Hearts an adventure game.
Butter my buns and call me a biscuit! - Agent A
Okay, I’ll change it to: “Why don’t you understand that people hate stealth?” You did say that.
Actually that is also not quite what I said, but close enough
As far as I’m concerned people can like or dislike whatever they want, it’s not like I’m forcing people to agree with me just because I personally like stealth sequences, but I do believe that the amount of criticism Dreamfall has gotten because of it is over the top.
So here’s my take on it: Stealth is about timing, just like the more complex combat. The timing turns stealth into action. It’s not a puzzle, no matter how hard you would like it to be, it’s trial-and-error + hand-eye coordination. It’s action.
Its true that stealth requires timing, but the timing part is in my experience usually very lenient, ie the gap between the guards is usually about twice as big as the minimum amount of time you would need to get to the next safe place, which means that it is much more about planning your moves and finding a safe route, than it is about dexterity or hand-eye coordination - So yes I do consider it to be a kind of puzzle.
There is however not a hard line where it is always either puzzle or action, it is more a case of different shades of grey where some can be more action based than others. If you want to consider all stealth to be action - so be it, but that is not how I see it.
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
The timing turns stealth into action. It’s not a puzzle, no matter how hard you would like it to be, it’s trial-and-error + hand-eye coordination. It’s action.
If you want to consider all stealth to be action - so be it, but that is not how I see it.
There are some stealth games that can`t be consider as action like Commandos or the recently Invisible Inc, the first one is something of a real time tactics and the other one is a turn based strategy.
Women come and go… a highscore lasts forever
Okay, I’ll change it to: “Why don’t you understand that people hate stealth?” You did say that.
Actually that is also not quite what I said, but close enough
So I left out the word “fully”...
Sit on your hands, Karlok, sit on your hands.
Its true that stealth requires timing, but the timing part is in my experience usually very lenient, ie the gap between the guards is usually about twice as big as the minimum amount of time you would need to get to the next safe place, which means that it is much more about planning your moves and finding a safe route, than it is about dexterity or hand-eye coordination - So yes I do consider it to be a kind of puzzle.
Every aracade sequence or action bit or FPS requires thinking, planning moves, finding a strategy, a way out. What your saying is that it’s a puzzle if the action bit is easy. I don’t find that kind of distinction useful.
Butter my buns and call me a biscuit! - Agent A
So I left out the word “fully”...
Sit on your hands, Karlok, sit on your hands.
No - You are misunderstanding the sentence:
That is also have taken a lot of flak for the stealth parts is however something that I have never fully understood!
Let me rephrase that for you, so you can perhaps better understand what I actually meant by that:
I have never fully understood why Dreamfall has been so heavily criticize, just because it has some stealth sequences that many don’t like!
Not a single word about how I don’t understand why some hate stealth!
What your saying is that it’s a puzzle if the action bit is easy.
No - That is, once again, not what I’m saying.
It is your prerogative to disagree with me and argue why you think that every single word I write is wrong, in fact I appreciate those kind of discussions.
But please stop putting words in my mouth and twist what I’m actually saying.
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
Iznogood, you’re being disingenious. Yes, you said that you have never fully understood why Dreamfall also has taken a lot of flak for the stealth parts. I get that. And then you go on to discuss stealth in general. What you’re saying in effect is that you don’t understand why some people hate stealth. Read your own post again, including the part below.
Its true that stealth requires timing, but the timing part is in my experience usually very lenient, ie the gap between the guards is usually about twice as big as the minimum amount of time you would need to get to the next safe place, which means that it is much more about planning your moves and finding a safe route, than it is about dexterity or hand-eye coordination - So yes I do consider it to be a kind of puzzle.
What you’re saying is that it’s a puzzle if the action bit is easy.
Butter my buns and call me a biscuit! - Agent A
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