[Dasilva]

Originally Posted by Havrepus

Not to mention that most of the people who are interested in a movie like this, if not all of them, have bought both The Longest Journey and Dreamfall already.

Thank you.

The only people interested in this 90% are the people who have played Dreamfall and liked it.

[DomStLeger]

Originally Posted by Shoal

I'll admit it's a bit of a moral quagmire. I certainly wouldn't fault anyone for being uncomfortable with it. And if Funcom tells me to stop distribution, I most certainly will with no argument.

Originally Posted by Shoal

I don't contact Funcom because... well... I know what they'll say. I'd wager a 90% chance that they'll call it copyright infringement. This irks me, because as far as I'm concerned, I'm doing this to help them. When I see hard data showing a loss of capital, I'll believe it. If I can use these videos to get two friends to buy this game and The Longest Journey -- which I've done so far, by the way -- even copyright infringement shouldn't stop me. I just made Funcom money. These friends will also very likely buy Dreamfall Chapters, and they would not have previously. Funcom wants the bottom line? There it is.

I'm sorry but your two statements are a bit incongruous - if FunCom tell you to stop you'd stop BUT you're not going to ask them because you know they'll tell you to stop? You need to make your mind up - if you really do think they would not approve then should you in all conscience continue?

Heres what I think is an analogous hypothetical situation to what you're doing; say you wrote a book and I took a digital camera, photographed each page and made it available on the internet? Would you be best pleased?

In terms of inspiring people to buy the game because they've seen the video; I must admit I am skeptical. Others have followed up to say "oh it's ok, only people who have bought the game would be interested anyway" - surely the whole reason for making it available has become blurry? But even if people would buy the game on viewing this video; perhaps just the first 20 minutes would be enough - why does a recording of the whole game need to go up on the net?

The more I think about this the more uncomfortable I get with the idea.

[Havrepus]

Isn't good old fun good enough reason for doing a project like this?

[Panthera]

Originally Posted by Legolas813

They'll probably get taken down eventually (if they ever find them). A lot of the Sam and Max trailers I uploaded were taken down and I was warned by a moderator to stop posting them because they were property of GameTap. Bunch of crap if you ask me.

As far as I understood, Gamespot is fully aware of his play-through of Grim and other Adventure games, and has even featured them on the front page. He's also a well known user to the gamespot editors and mods..

[Shoal]

Originally Posted by DomStLeger

I'm sorry but your two statements are a bit incongruous - if FunCom tell you to stop you'd stop BUT you're not going to ask them because you know they'll tell you to stop? You need to make your mind up - if you really do think they would not approve then should you in all conscience continue?

I think I answered that question pretty well in my long-winded explaination. If they tell me to stop, I will. If they don't tell me to stop, I'll continue. If it makes me a rascal to not ask them so they don't ask me to stop, then I guess so be it. I least I'm a lovable rascal. But anyway, I'm not going to upload this to video sites of any kind. Anyone who gets this -- from me, anyway -- will have gotten it directly from me.

Originally Posted by DomStLeger

Heres what I think is an analogous hypothetical situation to what you're doing; say you wrote a book and I took a digital camera, photographed each page and made it available on the internet? Would you be best pleased?

You may not believe me, but yes I would. The more people that read my book, the better. I'm a man who very much believes in destiny, Dom. I firmly believe that however much money I get from my book, that's the exact amount of money I was meant to have. If I'm meant to write another book, I will, despite how much money I made from the first. The same applies to a circumstance in which I made a video game. To me, the value of any project I do is not in its monetary value, but in what people can learn from my work. I'm an idealist. I don't like money. I give 30-40% tips, even on screw-ups. The local pizza place's delivery guys fight over who delivers to me (they've admitted this to me).

Elaborate rationalization from what seems to be a morally cornered man? You're welcome to believe that, but you'd be wrong.

Originally Posted by DomStLeger

In terms of inspiring people to buy the game because they've seen the video; I must admit I am skeptical. Others have followed up to say "oh it's ok, only people who have bought the game would be interested anyway" - surely the whole reason for making it available has become blurry? But even if people would buy the game on viewing this video; perhaps just the first 20 minutes would be enough - why does a recording of the whole game need to go up on the net?

Again, I'm not placing it on any video sites or making public links to it. If you ever see a public link to these videos sitting on a webpage, it was without my permission. Well... to be completely honest, I might change my mind, but the chance of that is very low.

[Legolas813]

Is anybody even buying Dreamfall anymore? It's been old news for a long while now. If this video was released soon after the game was released, I could see a problem, but not now.

What a load of rubbish. I'd be amazed if funcom would be overly bothered about a movie that
1. doesn't have any interactivity, so you can't play the damn game anyway,
2. Doesn't have the same high resolution you'd get actually playing the game,
3. and that would take so long to download, only a limited amount of hardcore fans would even download it, as it's easier for people to just go out, buy the game and get the full experience.

And what about all the speed run movies out there? You could theoretically slow them down. I feel sorry for Shoal, he's put a lot of effort into this.

[Amerzone]

I got the movie, Shoal, and everything works fine, many thanks! The quality of your work is awesome, congratulations!

[jannar85]

I like speed run movies ._. Watched Maniac Mansion the other day on youtube.

Oh, and you forget that a playthrough isn't the game. A playthrough misses out on a great deal of dialogue, easter eggs, funny comments by the main character and so on...

A playthrough IS actually a walkthrough with full movie guidence, on how quick one can complete the game. (I ran across the site to the Maniac Mansion playthrough uploader yesterday on youtube, and there I could find CSI, Broken Sword and newer playthroughs of games like Tony Tough 2..)

A playthrough would also be a nice addition for those who has PURCHASED the game (like myself), but doesn't have the recommended system requirements to play it


You also forget the playthrough someone did on Full Throttle

[DomStLeger]

Originally Posted by Shoal

I think I answered that question pretty well in my long-winded explaination. If they tell me to stop, I will. If they don't tell me to stop, I'll continue. If it makes me a rascal to not ask them so they don't ask me to stop, then I guess so be it. I least I'm a lovable rascal. But anyway, I'm not going to upload this to video sites of any kind. Anyone who gets this -- from me, anyway -- will have gotten it directly from me.

I think you've misunderstood my point. You first said you were doing FunCom a favour but if they told you to take it down you would. Then you said you think FunCom would most likely not approve. Then you said you were not going to ask FunCom because you know what their answer will be.

My point is that if you know they would not approve why are you continuing regardless, when you've said that if they asked you to you would stop? It just doesn't make sense to me; it seems illogical.

(The explanation you refer to btw, is just why you think FunCom would be wrong to disagree with you; it doesn't clarify why you think you should continue)

Originally Posted by Shoal

You may not believe me, but yes I would. The more people that read my book, the better ... I give 30-40% tips, even on screw-ups. The local pizza place's delivery guys fight over who delivers to me (they've admitted this to me).

That's very noble of you, and if I ever become a pizza delivery guy I'd like to work your neighbourhood! My example was meant to help you empathize with FunCom's probable situation; sadly they're probably not quite so altruistic and probably much more commerically driven

Originally Posted by Shoal

Again, I'm not placing it on any video sites or making public links to it. If you ever see a public link to these videos sitting on a webpage, it was without my permission. Well... to be completely honest, I might change my mind, but the chance of that is very low.

Sorry but didn't you put a link to a torrent file in this very thread that was removed by the admin?

Look, like I said before it doesn't bother me about you uploading this file; I just wanted to warn you of the possible pitfalls - especially of mass distributing it via a Torrent link in a busy forum. While what you've said seems a little incongruous to me, you obviously don't need to justify yourself to me, though I appreciate you having tried to answer my questions/points. I hate to be an interfering busy body but sometimes I can't help it and it was well meant! If you're happy with what you're doing then thats all that really matters, and it's obviously a labour of love that people will get some enjoyment out of. Good luck to you

[Shoal]

Originally Posted by DomStLeger

My point is that if you know they would not approve why are you continuing regardless, when you've said that if they asked you to you would stop? It just doesn't make sense to me; it seems illogical.

I guess it's a plain and simple case of "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil."

Originally Posted by DomStLeger

Sorry but didn't you put a link to a torrent file in this very thread that was removed by the admin?

D'oh. Touche. But, the torrent didn't work anyway and I had to go another route. That second route has no public link.

Originally Posted by DomStLeger

Look, like I said before it doesn't bother me about you uploading this file; I just wanted to warn you of the possible pitfalls. Good luck to you

I appreciate your concern. And believe me, this isn't something I do often. In fact, Dreamfall was my first such project. I'd like to do one or two more games, but they're all of older games and I have my doubts as to whether or not I'll even start. Dreamfall made me cry. It had dibs.

[Havrepus]

You will defititely make a lot of people happy if you do those other mentioned projects!

[Legolas813]

So what is the difference between what the original poster is doing, and what http://www.stuckgamer.com/ does? They post full videos of popular games to serve as walkthroughs. Some are even downloadable.

[Shoal]

Originally Posted by Legolas813

So what is the difference between what the original poster is doing, and what http://www.stuckgamer.com/ does? They post full videos of popular games to serve as walkthroughs. Some are even downloadable.

Well, to be honest, there is a bit of a difference between my videos and a video walkthrough: on top of all the relevant stuff, I included most of the extra, non-plot-relevant stuff as well. My videos are much more than a mere walkthrough, as they contain just about everything about the game which I thought was worthwhile to see & hear.

There's also the fact that I cut out two puzzle sequences, one of them -- the second one -- in the most puzzle-oriented area of the game. This means that, as a walkthrough, the videos would be pretty poor for a significant portion of Chapter 5. Unfortunately, I now realize I shouldn't have cut the first sequence out, because there's a minor discontinuity which shows up if your brain happens to be active while watching the videos: "Where the crap did she get that torch?"

In total, there are three reason why I made the videos, each one gradually leading into the next:

1) When I started, I was making the videos just for myself to watch so I could go back and view literally anything I liked from the game without having to install it and work my way back to that point. Plus, I have some strange video card issues with Dreamfall, so it's not always guaranteed to run well. Many of the video takes I trashed contained massive texture glitches.

2) Over time, I gradually wanted to use the videos as a way to share the game's incredible story with my friends. I knew they would never buy it or give it a second thought unless I did so. They, in fact, told me this.

3) Towards the end of the project, I got the idea to upload it to the net, first in part to give others a taste of reason #1, and because I knew there were probably others like my friends who wouldn't have anything to do with the game unless they saw the videos; hence, second in part for reason #2. My official stance in the movie credit subtitles, however, was that that the videos were for free distribution as a supplement to game ownership only.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by Shoal

I never denied I thought it was some form of copyright infringement. Or, at least I don't remember doing so. In fact, I was more or less sure it was infringement straight from the beginning. So why do I continue? Because I'm obeying the spirit of the law, not its letter. The letter of the law no doubt states in clear print that what I'm doing is illegal. It was written this way to protect Funcom's profits and intellectual property control. Funcom, due to the intricacies of legality, would be forced to uphold the cold, hard letter and tell me my project wasn't allowed. Normally, this would be a good idea. It protects the company from malicious and/or spiteful intent meant to damage it.

The spirit of this law, however, is, "don't hurt sales and keep the content intact as originally presented." As a huge fan of the game and thus wanting the best for it, I've judged Dreamfall's "content" in regards to this spirit as its presentation of setting, characters and plot and not so much the tiny amount of gameplay between those elements.

You do realize, of course, that this is only your own interpretation of what constitutes a spirit of the law here? I could argue that it's more about letting the copyright holder have a full control over their property, regardless whether or not they gain any financial profit from it. (For example.)

Originally Posted by Havrepus

Not to mention that most of the people who are interested in a movie like this, if not all of them, have bought both The Longest Journey and Dreamfall already.

Originally Posted by Dasilva

The only people interested in this 90% are the people who have played Dreamfall and liked it.

Nonsense. I know my gaming tastes and, after all I've heard about Dreamfall's gameplay, I'm not keen on buying Dreamfall before it hits budget price area - and wanting to experience the non-interactive part is honestly the only reason I eventually would. If I stumbled across a movie like this, I'm pretty sure the chances of me buying the game would drop to zero.

Which makes me think of a question to Shoal: suppose that now, after clearly admitting that I don't intend to buy the game, I ask you for a link to your video. Would you share it with me, knowing that the "it doesn't hurt Funcom" justification doesn't apply?

Originally Posted by Legolas813

Is anybody even buying Dreamfall anymore? It's been old news for a long while now. If this video was released soon after the game was released, I could see a problem, but not now.

I am sorry, but one year old doesn't make it old news at all. Plenty of gamers (me included, as I hinted above) wait for price drops before purchasing anything but the most wanted games. And there have been games (not Dreamfall, but some "AAA" titles nevertheless) for which it took longer than one year to even be published here (in Poland) to begin with.

I guess Funcom also believes they can still make more money on it, seeing as they released the demo only recently.

Originally Posted by Roman5

What a load of rubbish. I'd be amazed if funcom would be overly bothered about a movie that
1. doesn't have any interactivity, so you can't play the damn game anyway,
2. Doesn't have the same high resolution you'd get actually playing the game,
3. and that would take so long to download, only a limited amount of hardcore fans would even download it, as it's easier for people to just go out, buy the game and get the full experience.

1. Because Dreamfall was praised for its interactivity. Even Shoal, who seems quite a fan of the game, admitted the interactive parts weren't all that hot.
2. Adventure gamers are stereotypically "low-tech" gamers, so I believe many of them really won't care about the resolution all that much.
3. You are underappreciating lengths to which people are willing to go just to get something for free. People do download gigabytes of illegal game copies, don't they?

[Shoal]

You do realize, of course, that this is only your own interpretation of what constitutes a spirit of the law here?

Well, that's the great thing about the "spirit" of anything: it's less a question of definition and more a question of motivation and intention. I was -- am -- extracting the best motivation and intention possible based on the circumstances.

(As a sidenote, I love how whole discussion keeps descending deeper and deeper into philosophy. Maybe what's more important in all this is the discussion itself, not the letter or the spirit? )

Which makes me think of a question to Shoal: suppose that now, after clearly admitting that I don't intend to buy the game, I ask you for a link to your video. Would you share it with me, knowing that the "it doesn't hurt Funcom" justification doesn't apply?

I probably wouldn't give you a link unless you made a really compelling argument as to why you should have it anyway. What would you have to say? I don't know. I wouldn't know until I saw it.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

3. You are underappreciating lengths to which people are willing to go just to get something for free. People do download gigabytes of illegal game copies, don't they?

Yep, for actual games. But for a movie of the game and done by ( no disrespect shoal ) an amateur ? Like I said, imo, only hardcore fans would probably bother and even then, 5Gb is a massive file for a movie of a game you already played. I know I certainly wouldn't bother.

[AFGNCAAP]

Originally Posted by Shoal

I probably wouldn't give you a link unless you made a really compelling argument as to why you should have it anyway. What would you have to say? I don't know. I wouldn't know until I saw it.

Well, don't worry, I don't intend to. This was just to prove a point that you have no control over by whom it's used, and therefore, over how damaging to the game's sales it is. (After all, I could have remained silent here, or set up an alternative account, or ask another forumite to get the link for me, and you'd never know. )

Originally Posted by Roman5

5Gb is a massive file for a movie of a game you already played.

Sure, but I am speaking of those who haven't played it. Those who have won't make a difference, ethically speaking.

Originally Posted by AFGNCAAP

Sure, but I am speaking of those who haven't played it. Those who have won't make a difference, etically speaking.

Yeah, I should have said for those who haven't played it. Anyone illegally downloading games that hasn't played dreamfall, wouldn't it be a smaller file to download the actual game rather than the movie ?

[Panthera]

After doing a quick search I found out that you can get hold of Dreamfall files that are both bigger and smaller that 5 gig, I guess it has something to do with compression and such. Most of them are a bit under 5 gig, but none have especially many seeders, so would probably take some time to download..

Still I think it's much easier to download the game than the movie, since he said that his torrent file doesn't work, and it's a lot more hazzle getting them through Megaupload.

(and yes, I do own Dreamfall..)