[Henke]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

So do you think that the perceived 'lameness' in many adventure games today, as brought up by many adventure gamers such as yourself and fruithead (who started this thread) may have to do with adventure game developers not getting out enough?

If so, does that mean that designers like Tim Schafer and Jane Jensen have more of an edge because perhaps they draw from their own experiences of being more receptive to the world beyond just being locked in the game studio?

That could very much be the case, at least I think that Schafer and Jensen read more and look at other things for inspiration that the average game designer doesn't (but this is of course just guessing). I mean how many games looks and works more or less the exact same way? If I see another shooter with some guy in a shiny helmet I'll puke.

[AG4Ever]

I completely agree with you, adventure games suck lately. I miss the old Sierra games and The Longest Journey too. It seems like adventure game companies are just throwing together the same old crap and not trying to improve the genre at all. I notice fewer enviroments to explore, less animation, weak plots, unanswered questions, and abrupt, stupid endings (Jack the Ripper, anyone?). There is no innovation or any new & improved surprises with the stuff they're putting out lately, and the reviews I've read often place more importance on graphics than gameplay. I like graphics too, but I want a GREAT gaming experience, not a mediocre, half-a$$ed one that makes me feel like I wasted my money.

The last game I played was Scratches and I thought it sucked. The Black Mirror wasn't too bad (played it twice), and Still Life was just okay.

My theory is that game companies are putting the least amount of time and money into games in order to make more of a profit. Good for gaming companies, but a huge letdown for gamers.

[Squinky]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Ken Levine, who made Bioshock, was inspired by the ideas of Objectivism and Ayn Rand and created Bioshock.

From what I've been reading about Bioshock, it seems like it'd have been better if he'd been inspired by his own life and ideas instead of those of Ayn Rand.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Squinky

From what I've been reading about Bioshock, it seems like it'd have been better if he'd been inspired by his own life and ideas instead of those of Ayn Rand.

Well, we ARE dealing with fellow human beings here, with all our strengths and weaknesses and interests and self interests. You will see that in the course of literary and artistic history.

[fruithead]

Just to weigh in here, since I am the one who started this discussion, I don't expect every game to be an instant classic and I don't expect every designer to be a Jane Jenson or a Roberta Williams (I know there are people here who aren't fans of the latter but, hey, KQ 1 through 6 were great). What I think it is fair to expect is that an adventure game is original, has tolerable if not likeable characters, a good story and realistic dialogue.

In my opinion, adventure games are a lot like novels. They should be the sort of thing you can't put down. Not all books are bestsellers, not all books suit everyones taste but if you're putting all that time and effort into creating it why not treat it like it's meant to be your best work ever. Sometimes it feels like these game creators aren't even playing their own games or maybe they just don't care.

Like AG4ever said, it seems like some companies are just churning out titles for profit. We buy them wanting a good experience and find them terrible. Unfortunately you can't return software so we've just wasted our money on a bad game.

I think when it comes down to it, the story is key. Like a book, no one wants to read something dry and boring. For me, a games need energy and good dialogue and comfortable gameplay (for instance, Secrets of Atlantis, Dead Reefs and Pathologic were some games that I found too uncomfortable to play due to perspective. I don't mind 1st person but I couldn't get used to the way these games interpreted that).

[SamandMax]

The quality of games may be a little lacking right now but I think the future of adventure games in general has never been this bright in a long, long time. Right now you're able to walk into a game store and see Hotel Dusk, Phoenix Wright and Touch Detective on the DS and a bunch of Sierra classic adventure game collections next to a new Sam and Max. Then there's Grey Matter coming, more episodes of Sam and Max and 'And Then There Were None' on the Wii which I think is just the tip of the iceberg of adventure games we're gonna see on that system. The adventure game for the past few years really has been a completely stagnant genre with cheap mediocre games being churned out but now with more sales and interest gaining, it's slowly becoming a more viable option for companies. If they see a chance to make a profit in the genre they will spend more money on quality and that's desperately what we need right now if the adventure genre wants to be taken seriously again.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

It's tough on a level, too, for this kind of game. Now more than ever the media - Gamespot, IGN, The New York Times, BBC, Yahoo, etc. - are covering other game types extensively. But we almost never hear about recent and current releases like what's featured on this site. It would be great if many people out there got word, and those people would never think of AG, JA+, and other very niche sites that specialize only in this kind of game.

[NemelChelovek]

Three things I want most in games these days: real, believable characters, challenging but logical puzzles, and well-developed, non-cliched stories. I got that in Scratches, and Still Life had all of these (though the puzzles were not always the best), and probably would have been excellent if the budget hadn't dropped out from under them before it could be finished. Moment of Silence had two of the three (characters and story); Tunguska and Nibiru had none of them.

Also, add "environments that feel like they're not just there for me to move around in" to that list. I want to get some sense that, if my character weren't there, the world would still keep going. I'm sick of only being able to interact with things that relate directly to what I'm doing, and only seeing characters who have a bearing on the plot somehow. Give me some pedestrians, for Christ's sake! It can't be that hard; I remember seeing random, uninteractable pedestrians in the streets in games from the early '90s.

So: believable, well-developed characters; puzzles that make me think, but aren't too much of a stretch (the frigging "cat-cellphone" puzzle in Tunguska made me want to return the game); interesting, believable storylines that aren't predictable as all hell; environments that feel alive. That's what I'd like.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Oblivion offers adventures of another kind. Click the pic to see.

Originally Posted by NemelChelovek

Also, add "environments that feel like they're not just there for me to move around in" to that list. I want to get some sense that, if my character weren't there, the world would still keep going. I'm sick of only being able to interact with things that relate directly to what I'm doing, and only seeing characters who have a bearing on the plot somehow. Give me some pedestrians, for Christ's sake! It can't be that hard; I remember seeing random, uninteractable pedestrians in the streets in games from the early '90s.

These two are among my biggest grievances. It's always annoying when the only things you can interact with on the screen are the puzzles or the items to help solve them.

As for NPCs and such that ignite the gameworld into a beautiful vivacious place to explore, forget it. It'll probably be a long time before developers can actually afford to do that (with time, money, or talent). I say this in the light of being spoiled rotten by games such as Oblivion, Beyond Good & Evil, and Jade Empire. They're not adventure games but they at least created a world for us where we could easily while our time away chatting with characters and observing life around us and feeling like we really do belong, before stopping and remembering that there are puzzles to solve and a main story to unravel.

If you want a taste of how such a world could look and feel, click the pic above for a brief movie.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

However, lol, I am definitely still looking forward to Jane Jensen's Gray Matter, mostly for the story and characterization.

[misa]

Originally Posted by Melanie68

Both Blackwell Unbound and Blackwell Legacy come as a download or as a CD (use the related games tab to get the link to Blackwell Legacy's game info).

I just finished both Blackwell games and they are EXCELLENT! Very clever puzzles, great story, great characters. I was going to start with Shivah but wanted to get through the Blackwell games first. I'm about 1/2 way through Shivah now and it's also very good.

Can't wait for the next Blackwell installment!

I've also been exploring some underground games lately too and have not been disappointed.

[fruithead]

YES! I love environments where you can just click on random things like tables and tapestries, even when they lead to nothing. It's too easy when you can only click on usable items and puzzles.

And I'm going to have to try thing Blackwell games now that everyone is raving about them.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by fruithead

YES! I love environments where you can just click on random things like tables and tapestries, even when they lead to nothing. It's too easy when you can only click on usable items and puzzles.

I find it very ironic that adventure games of ten or so years ago indulged us in such richness and depth, treating us to highly interactive worlds that can only immerse us deeper in the stories, characters, and 'action' (i.e. puzzles).

And yet today it's non-adventure games that still mine the concepts that those adventure games of yore abounded in. I mean, I'm still finding new, intriguing things to know in, say, Oblivion, and I've already spent more than 375 hours in that game!

Granted, I don't expect many adventure games to ever give me that much satisfaction, but it would be wonderful to at least be able to, for example, follow an optional back story through exploration of people, places, and things in the gameworld. You know, ignite an otherwise hidden narrative by casually clicking a painting, a tree, a person....

[Merricat]

I think a key factor that is missing in adventure games of late--and which has largely contributed to the malaise so many AG players are feeling--is the element of surprise. So many of the games are been there, done that--and we keep looking for something different, in locations, in plots, in characters. I think some developers try to introduce variety by creating absurd puzzles (i.e., the cat puzzle in Tunguska), but for some of us, that kind of variety is annoying, rather than entrancing. As adventure gamers, we seek what is new, what is surprising--the adventurous. And if many of us are disappointed by what has been produced for us, I suspect corporate thinking (how to make a lot of games on the cheap, thereby increasing profits) has dominated the innovative thinking of game developers. Of course, this is just my take on the situation.

[Heriberto Valle]

Sometimes I think adventure games have just become a bit shallow. Most of the main characters tend to be cynicall or crack jokes at every corner without the need for it. One game that avoided this was Dreamfall, but Dreamfall also dissappointed me, albeit in a very different way.

Dreamfall actually was awesome in so many ways, but it also let me down bigtime, we all know how (ending anyone?)

[Lucifiel]

Hmm... having almost completed Still Life, I was quite disappointed with it. is it me or was there some sort of bland emptiness? It was extremely pretty and well, tried to be kinky but there's little seduction to be found in confrontation.

Oh and Keepsake: I played it when it'd just been published and it was actually one of the few games which I'd never finished. The graphics were pretty and indeed, some of the puzzles were kinda fun. However, the plot was really boring and the dialogues: oh gods... gimme a break. After a while, I junked it.

I just finished Delaware Vol 1: Cursed Manor and boy, it was fun! Although, the puzzles and controls could use some more tweaking and there was one in particular which really fried my brains.

Now, Sanitarium(a very old game) was kinda fun too.

Blackwell unbound was a little better than Blackwell legacy.

Man, I'd love to get Scratches though... I hope it's not too violent and gory.

Oh and I'm going to play that Missing series once I complete some of my backlist of games. Plus Dreamfall and... *sighs* the GK legacy and possibly, King's quest games.

Edit: I think many of the games today try to create an immersive world by packing in a lot of details. The more details you have, the harder it can be to tie everything up and the more confusing your puzzles could become.

[SnorkleCat]

Well...I am bitterly disappointed in Sherlock Holmes: The Awakened, and, after playing the demo, have declined to acquire Murder On The Orient Express.

To tell you the truth, the only AGs I've played recently are Riven (love it) and Safecracker (liking it very much so far).

Mostly, I seem to be straying away to other genres such as RPG, strategy, and so on.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Originally Posted by Snorksie

Mostly, I seem to be straying away to other genres such as RPG, strategy, and so on.

What is it about those genres that draw you?

[Lucifiel]

Eh well, I'd prefer for game puzzles to at least have a response of some sort: if it fails or the move is not the right one, at least produce a reaction of some sort. Otherwise, you're often forced to try and think like the developer which is kinda annoying.

Also, a well-written story is a must and also no over-lengthy dialogues which could be summarised or shortened.

Furthermore, I'd much rather play a game that has a medium-length story which is immersing and memorable than some game that boasts of some extremely intricate universe which is let down by a couple of details 'cos said developer lacks budget to flesh out many things.

Just skip out on those overly complex mechanisms, please, for it's the equivalent of squeezing in about 5 to 8 books' worth of story material. If you want to take that path, I'd rather the game be broken up into episodes or into a series, instead. :p

[SnorkleCat]

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

What is it about those genres that draw you?

I think maybe the freedom of game play has something to do with it. For instance, I feel so great running around in Oblivion. I can explore, go tomb raiding, pick up quests, turn into a vampire, buy and sell stuff, amass huge amounts of money if I want, go shopping, go thieving, conjure up creatures, ride a horse, run around the countryside for no good reason etc etc etc. There is just so much to do.

As for strategy, I like games like Wesnoth and Heroes of Might and Magic because I have to really use my head and strategize in a logical fashion- there is also an element of chance involved which makes any action seem risky and that appeals to me...

Adventure Games like Secret Files Tunguska, The Awakened, and the MOTOE demo just seem so depressingly restrictive and illogical to me now...and downright silly too, rather than exciting or stimulating.

The Myst games are a big exception though. They're so creative and one can become immersed in the world in a way that is impossible with something like Secret Files.