Do you like Mazes in AGs?

[SamNMax]

I wouldn't say I like them, but there are a few clever ones from time to time. The puzzle in Quest for Glory 4 in Dr. Cranium's home where you guided the antwerp through a rotating maze was a very well thought out maze and very enjoyable.

One I absolutly hated though, was the one in 7th Guest. Dead ends at every turn, too big, and Stauf yelling out "Feeling... LOOOOOOOOOOOnley" were pretty big putoffs.

[After a brisk nap]

I have to admit I usually enjoy them. The feeling of relief once you get out is bigger than the payoff of any other kind of AG puzzle.

Does this poll include both the labyrinths that have to be mapped (e.g. Kyrandia) and the ones where you have to follow a guide or set of instructions to avoid getting warped into random rooms (e.g. Monkey Island I & II, Fate of Atlantis, KQ2VGA)?

[crabapple]

Where is the "it depends on the maze" choice?

[Grey]

I wouldn't say I like them, but there are a few clever ones from time to time.

I notice you're replaying EFMI. What do you think of the Mysts O' Tyme swamp? That was the low point in the game for me. Or at least until I was faced with Monkey Kombat.

[crabapple]

What do you think of the Mysts O' Tyme swamp?

I thought it was one of the cleverest puzzles I'd seen back at the time I played EFMI.

[LauraMac]

I liked the Myst O' Tyme puzzle also. There is relatively little new under the sun - but that one sparkled for me.

I also liked the colored door maze in inherent Evil where you were looking for the horned door. It was a mapable maze - but was cleverly done.

[ConcreteRancor]

It wasn't very big, but I grew to love the mini-maze in Shivers. It was easy to get through, (just pick a wall and follow it,) and the music gave it the perfect atmosphere. (Slightly panicky, as if something was chasing you.) And then you get through, heart pumping, and THERE'S AN IXUPI OMG WTF and your health get sucked out. Good timing there.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Yes! YES! Oh God Yes!

Erm, that choice sounds more like an orgasm. :shifty:

[Renegade]

Erm, that choice sounds more like an orgasm. :shifty:

Yeah, it's like those shampoo commercials. That shampoo doesn't work, by the way... erm. Not that I would know.

[jjacob]

I hate mazes, unless they're well designed (I liked EFMI's, simple but clever). But I really, reeaaaally hated that one in Legacy: DS.

[Burge]

Be gone, evil mazes!

[DustCropper]

I voted for No, but now I wish had voted for Whatever. I guess they could be done well. But in most of the games that I've played, they've been pretty frustrating; the GK2 end sequence and Myst ship sequence come to mind.

[Glenn Epic]

I absolutely hated that monorail maze in Myst!!!

[EasilyConfused]

Yeah, definitely needs a "depends on the maze design" option or something. Some of them can be quite fun and clever. Er, especially the ones where you can get a bird's-eye view of them. :eek:

[Fienepien]

My vote is for the non-option "every maze should have two solutions". Time-honored patience and mapping or a clever and shorter way. Like in Myst and the Neverhood.

[Royal Fool]

I've always liked the bone song "maze" in Monkey Island 2.

I absolutely hated that monorail maze in Myst!!!
Yes, it was pretty horrible. I had to use a walkthrough for that one because I got so pissed off.

[Ninth]

I have to face it, I like mapping. Therefore I like mazes, the hard ones because they allow me to use my mapping skills, and the easy ones because they're clever (like in Fate of Atlantis)

[stepurhan]

My vote is for the non-option "every maze should have two solutions". Time-honored patience and mapping or a clever and shorter way. Like in Myst and the Neverhood.
Got to agree with this one. If the only way of solving a maze is mapping then that puts me right off. If the maze has no ready solution and isn't easily mappable either (Air vents in The Daedalus Encounter unless someone can tell me a clue I missed) then it's either walkthrough or stop for me.

But the Myst monorail maze I liked. I got really frustrated at first but, once I'd fiugred out the trick to it (the non-mapping one) then I found it an elegantly designed puzzle. Was still a bit long though.

[Dragonrose]

I think it really depends on the maze. If it's an in-game maze (just walking from room to room, not an overhead map) and there's some way to tell where you're supposed to go (ie following someone/thing, you're given a map, you're TOLD where to go, etc.) and the puzzle is finding the thing that tells you where you're going, THAT is clever. But if you're just let loose in a maze with no idea where you're supposed to go... that's not cool. (The desert in Kings Quest 5, anyone?)

And, if the maze is just thrown in to lengthen the game, that's just stupid.

[After a brisk nap]

The guide who will take you through an otherwise impassable maze was a clever puzzle at the time (was it invented for Monkey Island, or are there earlier examples?) but I think by now it's quite threadbare. What adventure gamer doesn't know to decode directions hidden in songs, dances, rhymes and poems, construct makeshift compasses and pendulums, or read markings scratched into the rooms?

Having the players explore the maze on their own is an even older puzzle, of course, but it has a certain timeless appeal. I think that as long as the labyrinth offers more than empty rooms to walk through, it can work quite well.

What about a maze where the object is not to find the exit, but perform some task, solve a puzzle in the maze itself? Are there any good examples of that?

[Fienepien]

I have to face it, I like mapping. Therefore I like mazes, the hard ones because they allow me to use my mapping skills, and the easy ones because they're clever (like in Fate of Atlantis)

You should play Dogday, right up your alley. One very hard, very long and utterly boring maze. Mother of all mazes. You have to enter it at least twice, maybe even three times...

God, I'm mean. :P

Some of the old text adventures from the 80s had the most twisted, horrible, nightmarish mazes that have ever seen the light of day. They even had UNMAPPABLE ones. Huuuuuu!! :crazy: I remember an adventure in a large mansion, with a maze on the grounds. As soon as I started dropping inventory items to mark the different locations, the gardener appeared out of nowhere, shook his fist at me, picked the items up and put them in a dustbin. Needless to say I couldn't get them back again.

[Ninth]

You should play Dogday, right up your alley. One very hard, very long and utterly boring maze. Mother of all mazes. You have to enter it at least twice, maybe even three times...

God, I'm mean. :P

Some of the old text adventures from the 80s had the most twisted, horrible, nightmarish mazes that have ever seen the light of day. They even had UNMAPPABLE ones. Huuuuuu!! :crazy: I remember an adventure in a large mansion, with a maze on the grounds. As soon as I started dropping inventory items to mark the different locations, the gardener appeared out of nowhere, shook his fist at me, picked the items up and put them in a dustbin. Needless to say I couldn't get them back again.
Unmappable mazes are a monstruosity of nature. :r
I tried to play Zork once, went three times west and then three times east, and didn't get back to where I started. My cartesian mind felt so hurt that I never played further.

[Fienepien]

Unmappable mazes are a monstruosity of nature. :r
I tried to play Zork once, went three times west and then three times east, and didn't get back to where I started. My cartesian mind felt so hurt that I never played further.

Hehehehe... You shouldn't have given up. In Zork you could still drop inventory items. Those devilish developers with their sadistic minds still had a long way to go. It's all coming back now... the multi-storied glass maze with holes in front of you that you could fall through, without any means to climb back up again... "timed" mazes with a limited number of moves to find the exit... :pan: :frusty:

[Antoinetta]

"But the Myst monorail maze I liked. I got really frustrated at first but, once I'd fiugred out the trick to it (the non-mapping one) then I found it an elegantly designed puzzle." Posted by Stepurhan

What was the trick? I just finished re-playing Myst a few days ago, and this was the one place I had to resort to a walk-thru.

Antoinetta

[SamNMax]

I notice you're replaying EFMI. What do you think of the Mysts O' Tyme swamp?

That's one of my favorite mazes of all time. I absolutly loved the conversation you have with yourself in it too.

[artwking4]

I have to admit I usually enjoy them. The feeling of relief once you get out is bigger than the payoff of any other kind of AG puzzle.I felt relieved whenever I finished a test, passed in homework or a project back in college, but that's not something I want to go through again, just because it felt better when it was done. It would be like enjoying the act of slamming of one's head against the wall because it felt good when you stopped. To each their own, though...

My opinion is that mazes are completely evil things with almost no story value whatsoever. I suppose they're fine if a person was to buy a game consisting solely of mazes, but as far as other games go, it causes most of them to grind to a halt. I think they're only there to pad the game and make it seem longer than it really is.

I hate them. I dread them. They. Suck. A lot.

[Manhunter71]

I really wanted to answer " YES YES, OH GOD! YES" in the poll, but I am afraid my experiences with the horrendously frustrating maze in Black Dahlia has shifted my opinion slightly!

[Crypto]

I do hate mazes, first one I encountered was in Legend of Kyrandia. Lighthouse had one, Monkey Island, Black Dahlia... but why??? Clever mazes as part of a puzzle, yes... But time-wasting, stupid, everything looks alike, walkthrough tempting mazes... :frusty:

[stepurhan]

Myst Monorail Maze Maagement Means
When you get to the bottom of the lift at the start of the maze you should hear a tone. There's only one exit from here so remember the tone and direction and then follow that exit. Next time you stop you'll hear another tone. Again (excepting where you came in) there's only one exit so remember the tone and direction and take that.

The opening parts of the maze should give you four different sounds, each of which matches to a cardinal direction (N,S,E or W) Whevenever you stop you'll hear sounds telling you which way to go next. If it's a diagonal you'll hear 2 sounds (the N and W sounds for Nw for example.)

[Dragonrose]

What about a maze where the object is not to find the exit, but perform some task, solve a puzzle in the maze itself? Are there any good examples of that?

Kings Quest 6, in the Labyrinth. That was an AWESOME maze.

You have to find the skull, the coins, and the shield which are scattered about the maze. You also have to disarm a falling ceiling trap and not get tricked by the genie. There's LOTS to do!

[Zanthia]

I don't like mases. I never know to go to. I got stuck in adventure in maze.

[SamNMax]

When you think about it, actually, there are a lot of really good mazes in some games.

[Fienepien]

When you think about it, actually, there are a lot of really good mazes in some games.

Yes...?

PS: The time-warp maze in MI4 was great.

[SamNMax]

The best maze I've ever seen was MI2's. When the dream sequence ended I thought it was the most inane thing to be put in the game. And when I got to the maze, I was so frustrated I looked and used every item I had that might help. Imagine my surprise when I looked at the loogie paper

But the maze in the 7th Guest was just mean. Every single turn looked identicle and that basturd Stauf... Jeez. There is a map to follow, but it was so damn confusing and you had to walk all the way up the stars to see it.

[Fienepien]

A maze in MI2?
A maze in the 7th guest?

Doesn't even ring a bell...
I've played too many adventures. :sad:

[Captain_Tuttle]

The best maze bar none, was in robin hood quest for the longbow, the hedge maze, espcially when you can use it to quickly rescue maid marain, oh man that game was awesome, sigh, i wish they'd done a voice pak for that game.

[saucyminx]

I absolutely dislike having to go through the maze games in the Nancy Drew games series in order to obtain a lead.

[Jazhara7]

If the Maze is well done, I usually like it.

The forest maze in "The Secret of Monkey Island" is always fun. I don't really need the guide any longer - I can walk through it in my sleep (after playing Monkey Island for the first or second time, I think)



- :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[Fairygdmther]

The maze in 7th Guest was off the kitchen. You had to go through a gate that was a slider puzzle to get to it. There WAS a map in one of the upstairs rooms, on the rug, but even if you plotted it out, the maze was tough, because each turn you took, the AI rushed you around the corner till you reached a dead end. Then you had to backtrack to a point where you knew where you were, without getting lost. And every wall looked the same.

My biggest problen with mazes are the underwater ones - like Cameron Files: Loch Ness, and Omega Stone. Put me under water and I lose all sense of direction.

FGM

[Draco2.5]

I have to face it, I like mapping. Therefore I like mazes, the hard ones because they allow me to use my mapping skills, and the easy ones because they're clever (like in Fate of Atlantis)


Same here.

[stepurhan]

A maze in MI2?
A maze in the 7th guest?

Doesn't even ring a bell...
I've played too many adventures. :sad:
The maxe in MI2 was LeChucks fortress.

But how you can forget the featureless torture that was the basement of the 7th Guest is beyond me. :crazy:

It occurs to me that any game with lots of locations is a maze of sorts. We just don't notice that sort of maze because it's the world we're adventuring in and not flagged as a separate puzzle.

[Fairygdmther]

It occurs to me that any game with lots of locations is a maze of sorts. We just don't notice that sort of maze because it's the world we're adventuring in and not flagged as a separate puzzle.

That's very true! The Anasazi world in Timelapse was very difficult for me, as was the tent area in Salammbo.

FGM

[Manhunter71]

I do hate mazes, first one I encountered was in Legend of Kyrandia. Lighthouse had one, Monkey Island, Black Dahlia... but why??? Clever mazes as part of a puzzle, yes... But time-wasting, stupid, everything looks alike, walkthrough tempting mazes... :frusty:

I totally agree about the Black Dahlia maze - there was just no reason for it to be there, apart from extending the gameplay time, which was long enough anyway because of the numerous other frustrating puzzles in that game :crazy:

[Fienepien]

The maxe in MI2 was LeChucks fortress.

But how you can forget the featureless torture that was the basement of the 7th Guest is beyond me. :crazy:

Still doesn't ring a bell. Terrible, isn't it. I do remember the horror of the green and blue microbes, the Y-words (hard for non-natives) and a puzzle with chess pieces. That's about it.

It occurs to me that any game with lots of locations is a maze of sorts. We just don't notice that sort of maze because it's the world we're adventuring in and not flagged as a separate puzzle.

Hm, that's stretching the meaning of the word maze. A maze is supposed to have lots of dead ends and the passages should be as similar as possible. I don't think a rich game environment qualifies. Except maybe A Quiet Weekend in Capri, with its 4500 locations. :D

[stepurhan]

Still doesn't ring a bell. Terrible, isn't it. I do remember the horror of the green and blue microbes, the Y-words (hard for non-natives) and a puzzle with chess pieces. That's about it.
Go to the Y word cupboard (that's a horrible puzzle even for native speakers) and turn right. There's a door. Go through it to brick-walled misery.
Hm, that's stretching the meaning of the word maze. A maze is supposed to have lots of dead ends and the passages should be as similar as possible. I don't think a rich game environment qualifies. Except maybe A Quiet Weekend in Capri, with its 4500 locations. :D
According to Merriam Webster (http://merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary) a maze is a confusing intricate network of passages
There's nothing in that definition about either dead ends or similar-looking passages. It just needs to be difficult to find your way around. Some cities are commonly referred to as having "a maze of streets" but I doubt all those streets look the same. Granted the less variation there is, the harder it is to find your way around but I don't think that's the be all and end all of mazes.

[Fienepien]

Go to the Y word cupboard (that's a horrible puzzle even for native speakers) and turn right. There's a door. Go through it to brick-walled misery.

Thanks.

There's nothing in that definition about either dead ends or similar-looking passages. It just needs to be difficult to find your way around. Some cities are commonly referred to as having "a maze of streets" but I doubt all those streets look the same. Granted the less variation there is, the harder it is to find your way around but I don't think that's the be all and end all of mazes.

That's ALL the Merriam Webster has to say about it?!?
I don't set much store by dictionary definitions anyway, but this is a good reminder never to use the Merriam Webster.

[After a brisk nap]

That's ALL the Merriam Webster has to say about it?!?
I don't set much store by dictionary definitions anyway, but this is a good reminder never to use the Merriam Webster.I checked a bunch of different dictionaries. They all say pretty much the same thing. None of them mention that "the passages should be as similar as possible". The MW Medical Dictionary states that a maze (the kind rats run through) should have at least one dead end, and Wikipedia makes a technical distinction between a (unicursal) labyrinth, which has only one path, and a maze, which has branching paths (but not necessarily any dead ends).

Similar rooms or passages is an effective way to confuse an explorer, but it's not a necessary element of a maze. And as for dead ends, a lot of adventure game maps have plenty of them.

[jbd]

Incidentally, Acheton (http://members.chello.at/theodor.lauppert/games/acheton.htm) had a maze with a solution essentially identical to the Myst O' Tyme.

In 1978.

(I would follow this with a cynical "there really *is* nothing new under the sun", but fortunately, the Monkey Island version is better.)

[Fienepien]

I checked a bunch of different dictionaries.

Oh wow. What have I done?

They all say pretty much the same thing. None of them mention that "the passages should be as similar as possible".

That's because I didn't get that from a dictionary. :P :P :P

IMO there's a distinct difference between an intentional maze or labyrinth, which is built for the sole purpose of confusing, and an unintentional maze of locations, streets or whatever. Let's agree to disagree, okay?

There's this adventure game GAG (obscure unfortunately), which makes fun of other adventure games. It has an underground maze but you're not allowed to explore it unless you've found the map that shows exactly where the exits and useful objects are located. :D

[After a brisk nap]

Oh wow. What have I done?I look stuff up all the time. In dictionaries, in encyclopedias, on websites and in magazines. Why? Because I enjoy learning things, and separating claims that are correct from claims that are wrong. Some people make fun of that. Typically people who are wrong a lot.

That's because I didn't get that from a dictionary. :P :P :P I was actually testing your claim that Merriam-Webster is a useless dictionary.

IMO there's a distinct difference between an intentional maze or labyrinth, which is built for the sole purpose of confusing, and an unintentional maze of locations, streets or whatever. Let's agree to disagree, okay?That's not really what we were discussing, so whatever.

[pleto4_ryan]

Mazes aren't bad,
the way they create them is.

[Fienepien]

I look stuff up all the time. In dictionaries, in encyclopedias, on websites and in magazines. Why? Because I enjoy learning things, and separating claims that are correct from claims that are wrong. Some people make fun of that. Typically people who are wrong a lot.

You're right, I'm wrong a lot. Nothing to do with dictionaries though. :D
Hey, I sometimes look up things too! But I've found dictionary definitions are mostly useless in discussions. Online dictionaries even more so. Here's the maze-definition from the paper-and-ink one which I use a lot:

a. (1) an intricate pattern of passages (as hedge-bordered paths) that ramifies and interconnects in a confusing way; also: a complicated winding path that is much longer than a corresponding direct route. (2) a path complicated by at least one blind alley and used in learning experiments and in intelligence tests.
b. something intricately and confusingly elaborate or complicated [the maze of inland waterways; caught up in the maze and whirl of political life].

I was actually testing your claim that Merriam-Webster is a useless dictionary.

And you and me both proved me right. :P

[After a brisk nap]

You're right, I'm wrong a lot. Nothing to do with dictionaries though. :D That actually wasn't directed at you. It was just general aggression.

Hey, I sometimes look up things too! But I've found dictionary definitions are mostly useless in discussions.Most discussions aren't about dictionary definitions. Dictionary definitions are excellent for determining what a word means.

Online dictionaries even more so. Here's the maze-definition from the paper-and-ink one which I use a lot:The (supposedly even more useless) online dictionaries I looked at contained all of that.

And you and me both proved me right. :PThere's no problem with the dictionary entries as far as I can see. I think we proved you wrong.

[Fienepien]

There's no problem with the dictionary entries as far as I can see. I think we proved you wrong.

You did? Oh. Rats! I shouldn't have played Zork GI for hours... not good for thinking inside the box :devil: and my brain hates multitasking anyway.

On a much more serious note, did you know that the word "totemize" is not in the Encyclopedia Frobozzica? :pan:

[Maquisard]

I never thought of puzzles where you show up on the same screen over and over again as mazes. It wasn't as much about spacial orientation, but always about doing something like spank the chicken using a sock filled with wood shavings to get out of that vicious cycle...But then again, if those are mazes, I didn't like them either.

Well, I think the snow fields in Syberia II were kinda about spacial orientation, as far as I remember, but since there were apparently no limits to where you could go (as in walls to direct your motion), I dunno if this could be called a maze either.

I guess my understanding of mazes is rather limited to environments like the minotaur lair, and I don't remember ever encountering one of those in an AG.

P.S. The spoiler above is to no game I know of, but it sounds entirely feasible

[pawsey]

I don't like gratuitous mazes :)

Mazes are OK if they are carefully woven into the storyline and there is a definite reason for them being there rather than being just another bolt-on puzzle.

[CrimsonBlue]

Good mazes:

Monkey Island 1
Monkey Island 2
Monkey Island 4
Fate of Atlantis

Bad mazes:
Legend of Kyrandia (if you put in a maze with absolutely no hints as to where you should go, make sure the hero can't *DIE*!)
Leisure Suit Larry 3 (Passionate Patti does a little jungle-hunting... how many finished this puzzle without ever looking in a walkthrough?)
Operation Stealth (this is what happens when an adventure game suddenly decides it wants to be a bad arcade maze game. Avoid the baddies, get to the exit kinda thing. I hate that.)
Zak McKracken (the jungle maze and the aztec temple maze, both terrible and horribly annoying)

Good mazes are mazes where you get hints as to where you should go. Bad mazes are mazes where you have absolutely no clue where to go, or forces you to have about a million savegames, so you're sure you don't have to start the whole game over. Also, if it IS mappable, don't force the player to go draw the map himself by trial and error and error resulting in death.

[Armand1880]

Payoffs are good...but at the end of the 7th Guest Maze..."Congratulations beating this maze that is horridbly confusing and terrible...here is another puzzle!!"

[SakSquash]

It depends. If there's a way to tell where you've been or some sort of marking that allows you to learn the layout of a maze, then it's fine, but if it's just a maze with walls that all looks the same, I despise them. I also hate when they make you go through the same maze multiple times to get between two areas.

[TheGreatFrith]

If they are there, I will beat them. If not, I will still play the game if it's good. I do absolutely HATE mazes that are damned near impossible,
actually any game that is so hard that it takes all the enjoyment out of it.

[Shadow]

I'm usually fairly down on mazes, as too often they seem to be an "easy out" for game designers to add some artificial challenge to a game.

BUT --

One of my favorite puzzles of all time is the "Department of Pre-Approvals" maze in Obsidian. Incredibly imaginative & clever, and just a joy to play.

[Bastich]

I voted No, but I am really not as anti-maze as I may seem.

The thing is, I grew up playing all the old school RPGs, which are basically all mazes, and mapped countless levels on graph paper. Yes, you could do without, but you never knew if there was a +20 Godslayer sword in some dead-end you missed or something, so you would map out every square to be sure.

Even some of the early text adventures required mapping and the bastards would even do things like change the directions on you to screw up your maps.

So basically, I have just been mazed to death over the years. It is such a tired convention to me that it just seems pointless now. It's just tedious for no good reason.

Maybe if I went a decade without a maze, I would like it again.

[LeisureSuitedLooney]

My favorite mazes were, in no particular order, the underground maze in "Shivers"; the Zork I text maze; and the Mysts O' Tyme maze in MI4. They were all quirky, fun, and a "maze" ing.

My least favorites were: the Town in Necronomicon; the maze to get to the doctor's office in Post Mortem. Tedious, especially if you had to go back for some reason.

[pinkgothic]

It depends. If there's a way to tell where you've been or some sort of marking that allows you to learn the layout of a maze, then it's fine,

All my serious run-ins with mazes were in the Labyrinth of Time, and that has a map. I must admit, I couldn't possibly deal with a map-less maze, myself - it would drive me completely nuts. Accordingly, I couldn't stand the surreal maze in the Labyrinth of Time, to stay on-topic of the same game...

So now I can both recommend it to you and warn you to stay away. :crazy:

Erm.

[autowil]

I remember the Sikkim temple maze in Ripley's Believe It or Not: The Riddle of Master Lu. That the impossible maze to cross. Who will know beside getting to the innner side of the temple, there are items to take.. It took me quite long to fiqure out the way.

The best maze i think is the maze is Lost Eden i think, where we just follow direction from the character to get the way.

[Antoinetta]

"My least favorites were: the Town in Necronomicon" Posted by Leisure Suited Looney

Maze? What Maze? The town is tiny. The town consists on one "main" street, relatively straight and about four blocks long. At the end of this, you make a right turn and two more mouse-clicks takes you to Edgar's place. Half-way along the main stretch another road branches off, at the church. This is only a block long, ending up at the waterfront, all of which can be seen as soon as you arrive and which can be covered in two to three mouse-clicks. Off the upper part of the road there is a small cul-de-sac, where you need to talk with someone.

And that's it. You can cover ALL the streets of the town in 15-20 mouse-clicks if you want.

Antoinetta