The Gabriel Knight 3 -interface

[Wormsie]

Just trying to gather some pseudo-statistical data. http://smilies.jeeptalk.org/contrib/edoom/heh_heh.gif

[Fairygdmther]

Deadworm? Could you add an option? It took getting used to - it wasn't an intuitive type of interface. I know for me that after a while, I got it to work, but it certainly wasn't my favorite kind of interface.

FGM

[squarejawhero]

As above. Thought it was merely OK... suprised at the result so far. Plus it had more of a tendency to further the players view more than usual, in the sense that I felt like a ghost directing the action rather than part of it.

[Jackal]

I thought it was wretched. I got used to it, but it was still terrible. :r

[shiajun]

I thought it was an aboslute delight to play with. I still can't understand why more games don't use this free-roaming camera, third-person system. I jsut adored it.

[Wormsie]

Deadworm? Could you add an option? It took getting used to - it wasn't an intuitive type of interface. I know for me that after a while, I got it to work, but it certainly wasn't my favorite kind of interface.Sorry, only mods can edit polls.

[Wormsie]

I thought it was an aboslute delight to play with. I still can't understand why more games don't use this free-roaming camera, third-person system. I jsut adored it.Yep. The only problem I had was the inventory. Soon I realised that using inventory items was often fairly intuitive, and there was no need for use-everything-with-everything. Mostly you just needed to use the glass, the notepad and the fingerprint kit.

[colpet]

I liked it because , for the most part, I could play it from a 1st person perspective. I didn't use the camera angles very much, other than to do some of the puzzles.

[MaryScots]

I thought it was an aboslute delight to play with. I still can't understand why more games don't use this free-roaming camera, third-person system. I jsut adored it.

I absolutely agree. GK3 is my ideal of a 3D-3rd-person-p&c game and still included in the TOP 5 of my alltime favourites. :)

[Marian]

I liked the game but not the interface.

[fov]

Sorry, only mods can edit polls.

I added that option. I know it skews the data a little to add an option after people have started voting, but as you said, it is pseudo-data.

I had a real hard time with the GK3 interface, but I did get used to it after awhile, so I guess I'll vote for that.

:) emily

[Wormsie]

What I was thinking in terms of improving it was to make the character "tethered" to the camera, the way Max follows Sam around in Sam & Max.Why should that be added? I can't see why myself, because when you performed an action, the character skipped right behind the camera. I agree that it was maybe a little strange that if you wanted a quick exit through a door, for example, you had to move the camera so that it practically touched the door...

[jjacob]

It was pretty easy to get used to, but I've played as much shooters as adventure games. Though for me, I found it perfect, I still voted "OK" because I can see how counter-intuitive it must've been at first for other people (and therefor alone not the ideal solution). I still admire GK3 for its boldness in switching to 3D and trying to tackle the control issue - which it handled pretty good. Even for people unaccustomed to anything 3D, after the learning curve, it's pretty easy. I made a reply about this in the "Cold Hotspot" thread but realised it was pretty off-topic there and more suited here;

Well, all the better, then. It shows that the concept is viable. However, I'm pretty sure that several reviews I've read mention that the interface is difficult at first.

What I was thinking in terms of improving it was to make the character "tethered" to the camera, the way Max follows Sam around in Sam & Max. Add a quicker way to move the camera around, other than the preset camera angles, and I think the experience should become quite smooth.One of the big 'advantages' of 3D is that the developers need to create a well-rounded 3D world, which ofcourse also has the big downside for adventure developers to it - cost, as mentioned in trep's second article (which is again excellent). I'm very curious how Dreamfall wil solve the issue, but I think it utilizes direct control combined with preset camera angles (much like Grim Fandango except in full 3D). I'm all for the GK3 control scheme (for regular FPS players I think it was actually a blessing, or that's what I thought of it), but I seriously think upcoming 3D adventure games should leave this up to the player. In my opinion this would be a win-win situation, where the player would be given the choice between a first-person view, a third-person chasecam or GK3's solution, preferably with the added option of enabling defaulted camera angles. I know this sounds complicated, but the advantage of 3D is that all these options are possible - a game could be p&c and direct-control at the same time, and people could simply choose what they liked best, muwhahahaha!

Direct-control: possible in first-person, third-person chasecam, and in 'traditional mode', with default camera angles when you enter a new 'area' or room (although you can move it around). Combine this with configurable keys, and everyone wins. Items and people are manipulated/interacted with by "pointing" your camera/character roughly at them, much like Grim Fandango or EFMI, with keys to cycle 'targets', which, as you can guess, also works excellent in first-person.

Point & Click: possible with 'traditional mode', preset camera angles are triggered as you move through the world using your mouse, clicking somewhere to move your character there in third person and clicking objects/npcs to interact with them, it'd be handy to give objects a subtle but clearly visible glow as your cursor moves over them (or have the cursor change, ofcourse).

IMHO this is win-win for everybody, from FPS players to die-hard traditionalists, right? I mean, some people are used to moving your character with the mouse button like realMyst or Sentinel: DIT, while others would prefer the WASD control scheme, so IMO, configurable keys are a must. Furthermore, traditionalists could use the P&C option, so who could complain? Well, OK, the developer who'd have to come up with this, present it in a clear manner, and shave off all rough edges of all control scheme options, to make each as perfect as it would've been had they chosen to use just that single interface.

BTW, I don't think there has been one single 3D game that has seriously tackled this - for example Vampire: Bloodlines gave the player the option between first- and third-person views, but the latter felt clumsy during combat (which ofcourse there'd be none or little of in an adventure game). I can't think of many games that give the player this option though, so there's a real chance for an adventure game to be the first to create a nearly seamless gameworld, explored in the manner the player chooses. It'd be cleaner than HL2, goddamnit :D

I liked it because , for the most part, I could play it from a 1st person perspective. I didn't use the camera angles very much, other than to do some of the puzzles.Could you elaborate? GK3 didn't have a first-person view, or did you simply mean third-person but said first? :confused:

[fov]

Could you elaborate? GK3 didn't have a first-person view, or did you simply mean third-person but said first? :confused:

Yes it did. You could move with Gabriel behind the camera, which was essentially a first person view. Or you could change the camera angle to see Gabe on the screen, which was the third person view.

-emily

[Antoinetta]

I think there should have been added yet another option to this poll, namely that the Gabriel Knight III interface is more than simply good, it is the greatest example of how an interface should be done for third-person games. After Gabriel Knight III came out and this example of interface design became avaliable to developers, any game designer who subsequently inflicted arrow-controlled character movement on the player should be taken out and burned at the stake.

For me there was no fussing around, no learning curve and except for an occasional tap on the Esc. key to hurry Gabe or Grace along, it is entirely Mouse-controlled. All I had to do was put the disk in the drive and jump in and play.

Antoinetta

[Wormsie]

I think there should have been added yet another option to this poll, namely that the Gabriel Knight III interface is more than simply good, it is the greatest example of how an interface should be done for third-person games.Well, I decided to keep the poll options at minimum. :D I almost added the "it's the greatest" -option, though, but thought that I'd leave it to the voter to define "good"...

[After a brisk nap]

Well, I gave up on GK3 after half an hour because I hated the interface (and the graphics). And I've played a fair number of first-person shooters, as well as third-person action games (Tomb Raider, Max Payne, Metal Gear Solid). It just felt twice as complicated because I had to control a camera as well as a character. However, when I think about it analytically, I believe they were going the right way. I want to take that basic idea and develop it into something I would be comfortable using.

I think there are some fundamental differences between p+c and direct control, which would make it impossible to design a game that plays well using both methods. The primary one is exploration. In a p+c game, exploring your environment is as quick as moving the mouse cursor to a point on the screen. In a direct-control game, you actually have to move your character over there, or position the camera correctly, before you can attempt an action. That means the pace of the game is completely different, and the game levels should be designed differently.

We shouldn't assume that there's a mouse available. If we're making a 3D game with a direct control option, we're going to want to put it on consoles, because that's the biggest market. Our non-direct control interface would have to work with a joypad.

To put it simply, what I'm proposing is a true 3D (not fixed-position camera) version of point-and-click, without using a mouse.

[Vel]

I think that, as a P&C, it's the best ever to appear in an adventure game - available actions only. As for the camera roaming, I thought it was great. Plus, if you didnt like it, there were fixed angles.

[Antoinetta]

"without using a mouse." Posted by Snarky

No Mouse, no Play.

Antoinetta

[Jackal]

Well, I gave up on GK3 after half an hour because I hated the interface (and the graphics). And I've played a fair number of first-person shooters, as well as third-person action games (Tomb Raider, Max Payne, Metal Gear Solid). It just felt twice as complicated because I had to control a camera as well as a character.

Yeah, I'm curious to know what other types of 3D games the people who love GK3's interface have played (or HAD played before GK3). If I was coming from a strictly (or at least mostly) P&C background, I would probably have found GK3's controls pretty elegant, if complex. But my own experience of far more intuitive and smooth controls in 3D action games left GK3's feeling incredibly bloated, clunky, and cumbersome.

[Kolzig]

I liked GK3's interface because it was refreshing, they had created a working new interface that was innovating in many ways.

The selfcontrollable camera thingie was my personal fav.

[LauraMac]

I thought the interface and shifting perspectives were what made the "actiony" challenges at the end so difficult.

I prefer a more intuitive feeling interface and there are a lot out there that are smoother and respond better. The Sentinel click and glide interface is better than a poor keyboard implementation.

[SakSquash]

I thought it was pretty damn cool. A change from the static environments you seen in every other adventure game.

[crabapple]

Other - I can't remember it. Don't remember the game very well.

[Duncan]

After Gabriel Knight III came out and this example of interface design became avaliable to developers, any game designer who subsequently inflicted arrow-controlled character movement on the player should be taken out and burned at the stake.

No Mouse, no Play.

Have you considered that other adventure game players may not share the same rigid conservatism that you apparently have when it comes to interface and are in fact capable of playing and enjoying keyboard-controlled games?

If you only want to play point-and-click, of course that's fine. But when you start equating that with quality - as you've done in many of your posts - when you suggest that any keyboard-controlled game is eminently unplayable and keyboard controls will always be a laughable design flaw, well then you're just being arrogant and ridiculous.

[MaryScots]

Yeah, I'm curious to know what other types of 3D games the people who love GK3's interface have played (or HAD played before GK3). If I was coming from a strictly (or at least mostly) P&C background, I would probably have found GK3's controls pretty elegant, if complex. But my own experience of far more intuitive and smooth controls in 3D action games left GK3's feeling incredibly bloated, clunky, and cumbersome.

Well, I have to admit, that GK3 was actually my first 3D-game if I remember well. Later I played Indy 5 Infernal Machine, Grim Fandango and 2003/2004 it was BS3 and The Westerner (Wanted). I still think that GK3 was the best because I don't like the way I have to control the character's movements by keyboard in order to find hotspots - like in GF or BS3 - as Snarky has described earlier in this thread,

In a direct-control game, you actually have to move your character over there, or position the camera correctly, before you can attempt an action. That means the pace of the game is completely different, and the game levels should be designed differently.
although I agree with Laura that getting the right camera angle in one of the final action-like puzzles in GK3 was really hard work!

Another point is Indy 5 and lately especially Sentinel made me feel very dizzy. That's a kind of 3D I really can't stand, although I overall enjoyed playing the games.

[colpet]

Could you elaborate? GK3 didn't have a first-person view, or did you simply mean third-person but said first? :confused:As FOV said, you could easily move along in first person perspective.

[jjacob]

As FOV said, you could easily move along in first person perspective.Ah yes, I forgot about this possibility - I played it nearly completely in third-person perspective, and it was a delight (I certainly wouldn't mind another game using this interface), but I think it's clearly not the best option available.

No matter how long this thread goes on, we're never all going to be in agreement about this, and for that reason alone I think everyone should be able to play according to their personal preference (from p&c to WASD, why not simply satisfy everyone). I'm still curious as to how Dreamfall will solve this - I know it will be mouse-driven, but will the camera's be fixed?

edit: Ah I read the bit in the Cold Hotspot about dreamfall, damn I'm only getting more curious - it's unlike anything in a previous adventure game. That rules out fixed cameras (unless they pan towards the player or something new and spiffy like that), so I have a feeling they re-invented the chasecam for adventure games. But these guys know what they're doing so I have faith it will be an elegant solution :)

[Manhunter71]

I thought it was an aboslute delight to play with. I still can't understand why more games don't use this free-roaming camera, third-person system. I jsut adored it.

Me too, I thought it was an incredibly easy interface to use and found no problems with it at all :D

I wish Broken Sword 3 had usd a similar interface - I am sure I would have enjoyed the game even more!!!

[CMK2901]

Absolutely my favorite interface of all time for an adventure game. I'll agree that some refinements might have been nice and could still be nice if anyone copies the style, but it is still far above any other that I've used. The ability to turn off cinematic cameras was a nice touch, but I really didn't use it nor the preset scenes. There were some unnecessary features in there, but they were trying to make the interface as accesible as possible.

[shiajun]

Well, if you turned off the cinematics, there were some scenes where a bit more information on certain characters could be learned by the actions they did while you weren't looking. Mostly you got cued by sound to the fact that something was happening that the current angles were not allowing you to see.

[scout]

The interface would have been terrible for an RPG or a shooter. It was perfect because it was for a pure adventure. I found that the "adventure intelligence" of the interface strengthed several aspect very subltely. This interface on another game wouldn't have worked but for GK3 is was inspired. There was some thinking outside the box for once and the result was a near masterpeice of an adventure game.

For the first time I felt bodily engrossed in an adventure game. Always before it was once removed.

[Captain Blondebeard]

Absolutely loved it. It was the only 3d interface that I was impressed with. Loved the free roaming camera.

[Ninth]

I don't remember the interface that well, which means that I didn't have any trouble with it. So I voted good.

[Crypto]

Good interface, though it was a bit silly to fly around the corner with your camera to look if anything changed over there while Gabe was not moving. :rolleyes:

[odnorf]

It's the most advanced interface I have ever seen in a Real-Time 3D game. The idea of seperate the camera from the character is amazing. It ruins the reality of the game but it adds so many possibilities. I was amazed that it was dumped and no other company mimic it.

(I didn't post at the poll because there is no option for me... "good" is just not enough.)

[UPtimist]

Well, I voted for good, but in my opinion it's better. It's just the best interface I know. Now if we just could get a graphic update (not that the graphics still would be bad, but think about that kind of free roaming with totally-up-to-date graphics :9 )

[Orange Brat]

The upcoming(2007) game "8" uses a GK3 style interface. You control the 1st person cam but the player avatar is independent of it. She also tends to acquire a mind of her own if you neglect her.

I got to play a private alpha demo a while back, and it's also point & click. There's a short video demo of what I played on the site:

http://www.tale-of-tales.com/8/

[jenny]

Yep. The only problem I had was the inventory. Soon I realised that using inventory items was often fairly intuitive, and there was no need for use-everything-with-everything. Mostly you just needed to use the glass, the notepad and the fingerprint kit.



I loved it, it gives you the feeling of real investigating. In the beginning it's hard to getting used to.

[pleto4_ryan]

i'll have to pick the "other" as you haven't added a "one of the most revolutionary interfaces" as an option :P

Gabriel Knight 3 has moved the adventure interface into a new level...finally the player could alone scan the area for clues, items and hot spots.
Also one of the best ideas of clearing away the "pixel hunting" problem...the next best thing came from Grim Fandango...

*imagines an interface made by a conjuction of both" :eek:

now...THAT would be great... :D

[Royal Fool]

I liked the camera controls and the certain simplicity of the interface. And being able to have Gabe 'zap' between places so easily was also a nice perk.

Now that you all mention GK3, maybe it is time I revisit it. I've only finished it once, but because I tend to remember small details I didn't think I would enjoy playing it through again until I'd manage to forget the puzzles. And now I have. *D


...but I still have yet to play GK2. Damn it all.

Royal Fool :shifty::pan: The All-Encompassing Embodiment of Adventure Gaming Consciousness

[Orange Brat]

Gabriel Knight 3 has moved the adventure interface into a new level...finally the player could alone scan the area for clues, items and hot spots.
Also one of the best ideas of clearing away the "pixel hunting" problem...the next best thing came from Grim Fandango...

*imagines an interface made by a conjuction of both" :eek:

now...THAT would be great... :D

What would be the result?

[DFish]

I liked the GK3 interface. In fact I liked almost everything about GK3. The worst thing about it was the story.