Negotiations between Bad-Brain and LucasArts come to an end. [Archive]

ADVENTURE-RAIDER

01-28-2005, 07:10 AM

This comes as absolutely no surprise. I actually don't think this should be immediately blamed on LucasArts. In my opinion, Bad Brain's chances were destroyed immediately when Kierdorf started discussing the negotiations in public while still under NDA.

It did, of course, give them a lot of free publicity, and at least this proved to LucasArts once again that Sam & Max 2 is a much-wanted property. (Which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you look at it.)

I have to agree with Marek that in this particular negotiation, I don't think Lucasarts was to blame. Even if it is not clear that they rejected Bad Brain's offer, it looks like the publicity that Mr. Kierdorf attracted during the negotiations didn't suit Lucasarts.
On the other side, are we 100% sure that the negotiations between the two companies were for "Sam & Max 2"? I don't remember reading anywhere the particular game they were discussing. It maybe a sequel to "Full Throttle", or another "Indiana Jones", or a third "Maniac Mansion", or a sequel to "Grim Fandango", or even a fifth "Monkey Island"! :D

Kolorabi

01-28-2005, 07:10 AM

It's just a marketing tactic, of course they didn't!What kind of crap marketing tactic would that be? Surely they won't gain anything on hyping people up if they don't have good news? Especially after all these rumours. They'd never be taken seriously again.

Edit: It could be that the article gives the wrong impression, though.

qrious

01-28-2005, 07:13 AM

What kind of crap marketing tactic would that be? Surely they won't gain anything on hyping people up if they don't have good news? Especially after all these rumours. They'd never be taken seriously again.

Edit: It could be that the article gives the wrong impression, though.

i agree if thats the case but i do really think that they got the licence.

Wormsie

01-28-2005, 07:14 AM

NOTE: Don't take anything I say about this subject seriously until we get some real information. :D

LauraMac

01-28-2005, 07:24 AM

well really all this says is "Negotiations at an end and if some license signed and what that is will be anounced later"

Could as easily be Full Throttle 2

And it isn't as if LucasArts follows through on all their deals...Can not sign at last minute or even something as wild and stupid as pull the plug on an exisiting game in development in last days of development with ready market waiting for release. :(

I don't have a lot of faith in Lucas Arts on any follow through....

like our editor says, I will reserve my right to be a hopeful skeptic :)

Kolorabi

01-28-2005, 07:30 AM

Could as easily be Full Throttle 2
Yeah, but I don't see why they'd spend money on that - unless we're talking about the rights to develop a whole new game, instead of resurrecting a game that most adventure gamers seemed unhappy with and that was cancelled because it wasn't of good enough quality (unlike S&M2, which was cancelled because of "market realities").

Marek

01-28-2005, 07:33 AM

I think Aventuraycia.com is proud to bring you a news scoop and don't mean they're proud of the news itself. At least I can't interpret it any other way. :)

Bad Brain does not have the rights to Sam & Max 2. If they do, I'll eat my hat buy a hat and eat it.

qrious

01-28-2005, 07:36 AM

ragnar

01-28-2005, 07:38 AM

I bet that if he does lose the wager, he will buy a chocolate hat and eat. Hmm, does Marek know it will be something and want a chocalate hat to eat?

Kolorabi

01-28-2005, 07:39 AM

Bad Brain does not have the rights to Sam & Max 2. If they do, I'll eat my hat buy a hat and eat it.
Ok, good, but you'll have to post pictures. Maybe you could write an entire article about it? Would probably be an entertaining read. :)

(seriously: I'm not sure what to think, really - but I am cautiously optimistic, because I don't see why Bad Brain would release this "information" if they didn't want people to get hyped up about something)

Marek

01-28-2005, 07:43 AM

Heh. I remember some writer from Wired (I think?) once saying he'd eat the magazine if he was wrong, and so he did at some conference. He added water and put it in a blender.

I don't have definitive insider information or anything, but based on general word of mouth there's a very low likelyhood of Bad Brain somehow having secured Sam & Max 2.

I don't think Bad Brain is following an evil marketing strategy, though. I think they would love nothing more than to publish Sam & Max 2, and I do believe they made a serious attempt to get it.

Nappi

01-28-2005, 07:46 AM

I really hope that it's good news but somehow I have become pretty pessimistic lately. With my luck they didn't get the license but desided to make a Star Wars fps-game instead.

I really don't think the license will be Full Throttle. Otherwise all these "you know what game" etc. statements would be pretty damn misleading.

LauraMac

01-28-2005, 08:00 AM

because I don't see why Bad Brain would release this "information" if they didn't want people to get hyped up about something

and they do want people to be hyped about something...about BadBrain. :)

and I didn't say WOULD be FT2 - just said could be this as easily as anything else, could be Indie, or Star Wars - or even no deal ever actually signed in the end. This guy didn't even say a deal WAS signed for any title or license just that negotiations were ended.

Which is their obligation. They have other titles and are in business, it's called creative PR. I mean why say ...Voice of Matt Damon used in NiBuRi instead of saying more technically accurate...German actor who does voice over for Matt Damon roles used in game ;) It's not a lie - but it grabs attention.

All BadBrain said with a wink is that "some title" negotiated for and when signed would be great news" and BadBrain may indeed sign license for SnM2. It is just that BadBrain does not "say" this is THE title. Doesn't even give more related hint. Just allows gamers and hopeful press do draw that conclusion for selves from very very sketchy info. As a gamer I hope it is true .... as press I remain skeptical til I see more conclusive evidence. 8-)

Martin Gantefoehr

01-28-2005, 08:06 AM

I don't remember reading anywhere the particular game they were discussing. It maybe a sequel to "Full Throttle", or another "Indiana Jones", or a third "Maniac Mansion", or a sequel to "Grim Fandango", or even a fifth "Monkey Island"!

Well, there has been some publicly available information on the LA license issue (http://www.aventuraycia.com/entrevista.php?entrev=Wolfgang%20Kierdorf&idioma=english&pag=1) four or five days ago, on the very same site. I stumbled across the link at adventure-treff.de.

Jackal

01-28-2005, 08:14 AM

I would soooo like to see anything BUT hype come out of Bad Brain. At some point all the celebrating over nothing (tangible) gets a little irritating. :shifty:

Kolorabi

01-28-2005, 08:21 AM

Which is their obligation. They have other titles and are in business, it's called creative PR.
Well, it would also be bad PR. If they don't get the deal, their reputation will take a serious hit because of their way of handling this issue.

...but I guess we'll just have to wait and see. :)

Well, there has been some publicly available information on the LA license issue four or five days ago, on the very same site. I stumbled across the link at adventure-treff.de.
Thanks for the link. Would be really cool if they could get Hal Barwood to help with i-jet :)

Edit: Btw, in answer to whether Orgatic Four would be 2D or 3D, they said:

- No, it will be completly 3D! Just like the one with the dog and the rabbit!

So... um... I think we can drop the speculations about which title it is they're trying to get the rights to. :)

ADVENTURE-RAIDER

01-28-2005, 08:22 AM

I would soooo like to see anything BUT hype come out of Bad Brain. At some point all the celebrating over nothing (tangible) gets a little irritating. :shifty:
I guess the best thing is wait a couple days and we'll get an official announcement, even if "Aventura y CIA" claims that they will have news later today. :P

Jake

01-28-2005, 08:28 AM

Wolfgang has made mention specifically of "the dog and rabbit" on the bad brain site before, so it is hard to even consider that he's takling about any LEC property besides "Sam & Max Freelance Police."

¡¡¡Maybe he's talking about the junkyard dog and mechanical yellow bunnies from Full Throttle!!!

SoccerDude28

01-28-2005, 08:34 AM

I would soooo like to see anything BUT hype come out of Bad Brain. At some point all the celebrating over nothing (tangible) gets a little irritating. :shifty:
Well at least they didn't publish a flash on their website with "Sam and Max 2" rotating text :rolleyes:

Jackal

01-28-2005, 08:35 AM

Well at least they didn't publish a flash on their website with "Sam and Max 2" rotating text :rolleyes:

The day is young. :devil:

jp-30

01-28-2005, 10:06 AM

Well, I'll only be happy when I'm actually playing the game, but despite all my cynicsm towards Bad-Brain, I really do hope that I will get to play Sam & Max 2 in 2005.

Metallus

01-28-2005, 11:23 AM

And Sam and Max fans continue to be jerked around. I think that they've got to be among the most messed-with fans out there. As a Sam and Max fan, I am so, so weary of promise after promise. I think I agree with jp-30 in that I won't be happy until I own a copy (or 12) of Freelance Police.

For those who don't really follow all things Sam and Max, here's some stuff that we also didn't get to enjoy:

A new comic book that didn't/hasn't come out (in the works for years and years)
A syndicated comic strip that never materialized
A very-short-lived and somewhat homogenized (though actually decent and award-winning, even) TV series
Two game cancellations, lest we forget Infinite Machine in 2001.
Probably other stuff I forgot or don't know about, but I decided to make another list item anyway, so here's some space filled.
Please don't think that I blame Steve Purcell for any of this, though. I'm at the point where I'm so cynical about this stuff, I've actually gone back around to being hopeful again for the game's release, but only for their (the company's) sake.

rio

01-28-2005, 12:52 PM

I just read the interview that Martin posted and apparently I-Jet will be "kind of revolutionary".

Udvarnoky

01-28-2005, 01:14 PM

"It was so degrading!

We tried everything to bring you the game you all wanted. But it seems all hope has gone. They broke of negotiations. But you truly have to believe that it wasn't our fault and it sure wasn't the money. We just don't know and they don't tell.

But we don't give up that easy. There is still a glimpse of hope and Steve Purcell is the one who is in charge now. We are talking ... and we are hopeing ... again.

Here is what you can do: tell Steve P. to give us Sam & Max and we, at bad brain promise you the best and boldest Sam & Max 3D Point&Click-Adventure ever. Support us and we will give you what you want!

Enough said. I have to go and have a drink now. Kids: don't do this at home! "

Yeah, like none of us saw this coming.

qrious

01-28-2005, 01:14 PM

marek isnt going to eat his hat after all...
bad-brain.com

kelmer

01-28-2005, 01:16 PM

I can assure you this wasnt what we were told. We were completely fooled. Otherwise we wouldn't have published any exclusive, we don't get cocky on that kind of thing, you know.

EasilyConfused

01-28-2005, 01:18 PM

I would soooo like to see anything BUT hype come out of Bad Brain. At some point all the celebrating over nothing (tangible) gets a little irritating.
Fine and dandy to be sick of BadBrain's "we're too cool for school attitude," but wanting to get a company going doesn't necessarily make you a bad guy, nor does it make the collapse of (probably way too optimistic) negotiations your fault.
This comes as absolutely no surprise. I actually don't think this should be immediately blamed on LucasArts. In my opinion, Bad Brain's chances were destroyed immediately when Kierdorf started discussing the negotiations in public while still under NDA.
It's far from clear to me, Marek, that Kierdorf DID violate his non-disclosure agreement. For some reason I got a bee in my bonnet over this the last time the subject came up and I talked to every lawyer I know. (Which unfortunately for me is a lot. :shifty:) All of them said there's no standard NDA, and that just announcing you were in negotiations wouldn't necessarily violate an agreement. You'd have to actually LOOK at the document to see if Kierdorf violated it, so unless you happen to have it in your desk drawer. . . ;) maybe you want to stop suggesting he's done something he shouldn't have? :eek:

(To get really annoying about it, there are plenty of circumstances where it would be illegal for a company to sign an NDA that said it couldn't even mention ongoing negotiations. That wouldn't necessarily be the case here for even MORE annoying reasons, but . . yeah.)

Carry on, Sam and Max conspiracy theorists. ;)

Dale Baldwin

01-28-2005, 01:19 PM

I can assure you this wasnt what we were told. We were completely fooled. Otherwise we wouldn't have published any exclusive, we don't get cocky on that kind of thing, you know.
Should have asked me, kelmer. ;)

kelmer

01-28-2005, 01:21 PM

I spoke personally to mr. Kierdorf and what he told me was that they had an agreement with mr. Purcell already...

We even had a big news item prepared for the event...

Udvarnoky

01-28-2005, 01:25 PM

I think it's funny that they still want the license, and want people to get Purcell to hand it over. Like anyone had actual faith in Bad-Brain, and followed them for any other reason than because they thought there was a glimmer of hope that they would aquire the source code? Oh wait, none.

Even though this was to be suspected it's still a blow to know (even though I should have accepted it 10 months ago) that Freelance Police is dead. I've always known there was hope and still is for another Sam & Max game to come out someday, but I always had my heart set on the LucasArts version, the one that was well underway and is going to rot forever for no reason. I guess our best bet still lies with Telltale making a new game upon hopefully getting the license from Purcell in May. Assuming that is probably too bold at this point.

Jackal

01-28-2005, 01:25 PM

Fine and dandy to be sick of BadBrain's "we're too cool for school attitude," but wanting to get a company going doesn't necessarily make you a bad guy, nor does it make the collapse of (probably way too optimistic) negotiations your fault.

:confused:

I didn't say absolutely anything you attributed to my quote. I just said (basically) that I'm irritated by high-publicity rumours and announcements being far more prevalent than anything tangible.

LauraMac

01-28-2005, 01:27 PM

Otherwise we wouldn't have published any exclusive, we don't get cocky on that kind of thing, you know.

I certainly am not one to fault you one bit for running with a story you had every reason to believe. no smacks there at all from me. :)

And I have been down that road myself...which is why I am now on the press side of my work [Like the man on the masthead says] - a hopeful skeptic on these sort of things. sigh

kelmer

01-28-2005, 01:31 PM

Yes, we were skeptical too, but what would you think if you spoke personally on the phone with Wolfgang himself and he told you they were about to make the game?

We received today an e-mail from him telling us we could publish our news, and then we called him, but we believed it was what we though it was.

LauraMac

01-28-2005, 01:33 PM

If it was me? and I got a call like that?

Well no doubt about it! I'd run with the story and be mad as hell later :)

EasilyConfused

01-28-2005, 01:47 PM

:confused:

I didn't say absolutely anything you attributed to my quote. I just said (basically) that I'm irritated by high-publicity rumours and announcements being far more prevalent than anything tangible.
I can't understand why you're confused, since all I did was use your quote as a springboard to go off on a totally tangential rant of my own that had nothing to do with your comment while (unintentionally) creating the impression that I was attributing those ideas to you. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Oops. :o

Wormsie

01-28-2005, 01:50 PM

I think this Wolfgang character sounds hyperactive. Hopefully it will get him somewhere, but hype overload isn't good for your credibility. Peter Molyneux, anyone? :D

Jackal

01-28-2005, 01:51 PM

I can't understand why you're confused, since all I did was use your quote as a springboard to go off on a totally tangential rant of my own that had nothing to do with your comment while (unintentionally) creating the impression that I was attributing those ideas to you.

Oh, well, then. Now I understand completely! Where was my head!? ;)

Brushguy

01-28-2005, 03:05 PM

Why are you guys beating up Wolfgang? He obviously really REALLY wanted to get it. Check out his post at the Bad Brain forums:

What do you think how pissed we are?? We put quite some effort in this thing because we care as much as you do. Ask Bill Tiller how often we talked about it and how hard it was to get that far.

That they finally put us down without any comment broke our heart as much as it broke yours. We really thought we had a chance. We wouldn't have done it else.

As far as we know:
Steve P. gets back his license in may. The code to S&M 2 belongs to LucasArts, so if they don't want to give it, we have to begin from the scratch that is right but: as far as we know (and that is not offical LucasArts, so we can tell it as a rumor) there has been loads of artwork and idea for the 2nd game, but not much of the game itself. So starting over with a maybe similar idea and updated technology, headed by Steve P. as the director behind the whole thing may not be such a bad (brain) idea at all. think about it.

Sounds pretty honest to me. Sad news, nonetheless. :( I still hate Lucasarts. Let's hope the future will be more promising...

remixor

01-28-2005, 03:14 PM

Why are you guys beating up Wolfgang? He obviously really REALLY wanted to get it.
Nobody doubts that he really REALLY wanted to get it. The problem is, he severly sabotaged his own attempts at securing the license by being far too open-mouthed about the whole thing. Technically not revealing the name of the license is meaningless if you go around giving ridiculously specific hints, and I'm sure the LucasArts people were not happy about it considering he surely signed an NDA.

Udvarnoky

01-28-2005, 05:07 PM

I don't get why everyone is so adamant about making sure Bad Brain gets the Sam & Max license (not that I think any fan could sway Purcell either way). I mean, yes the company is confident and ambitious, which is something I admire and is surely welcome to the adventure genre, but how are they somehow capable of developing a new Sam & Max game? I mean, it's one thing to aquire the rights to a game and then have someone else develop it, but why are we only to happy to let Bad Brain have these characters, when there are other companies (*cough* Telltale) that seem to be better choices? I mean, while we're handing over beloved licenses to any brand new adventure company with no known experience...

doubleagent

01-28-2005, 05:41 PM

Hey guys, first post.

Anyways Gamespot just ran this:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/01/28/news_6117445.html

I'm confused

crabapple

01-28-2005, 05:59 PM

Udvarnoky

01-28-2005, 06:01 PM

I thought Bad Brain was the publisher.
Telltale would be a developer.

Bad Brain intends to be both a developer and a publisher. What's your point? That developers can't aquire licenses? Or that if Bad Brain would get Sam & Max, Telltale would certainly be the ones to make it?

rio

01-28-2005, 06:02 PM

No, Telltale is a seperate party. Bad Brain is a developer/publisher that wants to finish the game internally.

EDIT: Dang you beat me.

crabapple

01-28-2005, 06:15 PM

Bad Brain intends to be both a developer and a publisher. What's your point? That developers can't aquire licenses? Or that if Bad Brain would get Sam & Max, Telltale would certainly be the ones to make it?

The second thing is what I was thinking - that Bad Brain was trying to get the publishing rights so they could work with Telltale on developing and publishing the Sam & Max game.

The Vampyre Story is at both http://www.bad-brain.com/ and http://amegames.com/vs/
I heard about Autumn Moon (Amegames) being the developer for Vampyre Story long before I heard about Bad Brain, and read that Autumn Moon was looking for a publisher. Then I heard they found a publisher and assumed Bad Brain was the publisher that Autumn Moon had found.

No point to my post other than trying to sort things out for myself.

HieroHero

01-28-2005, 06:17 PM

Hey guys, first post.

Anyways Gamespot just ran this:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/01/28/news_6117445.html

I'm confused

even when he knows the negotiotions failed he doesnt announce "the negotions failed" he says announcement coming soon..and jokes around with gamespot as if he got sam and max just so he can get more publicity for bad brain.. this wolfgang guy is a disgrace!

Udvarnoky

01-28-2005, 06:26 PM

The second thing is what I was thinking - that Bad Brain was trying to get the publishing rights so they could work with Telltale on developing and publishing the Sam & Max game.

But my point is why even go to Bad Brain when he just go directly to Telltale? They'd expressed interest in the license before Bad Brain (at least publicly) and there's no reason to involve an extra party (such as any possible publisher) before the game is even being developed is there?

Kolzig

01-28-2005, 06:27 PM

Enough said. I have to go and have a drink now. Kids: don't do this at home!

I've been doing this for many hours already. :shifty: :frown:

fov

01-28-2005, 10:03 PM

Hey guys, first post.

Anyways Gamespot just ran this:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/01/28/news_6117445.html

I'm confused

Welcome to the forum. :)

I'm confused by that Gamespot article, too.

-emily

jp-30

01-28-2005, 10:20 PM

Considering Keirdorf told other sites this morning (eg. Aventura y Cia) that the Sam & Max deal was in the bag, only to state the opposite this afternoon on the BBE site there are only 2 logical possibilities.

1. Kierdorf lied to and strung along other sites to increase free publicity for BBE
2. The lucasArts deal was in the bag, and the during the day LucasArts reversed their decision.

Note that there was no mention of #2 in the note that was on the BBE site for a few hours today (now removed), so the only conclusion I can draw is that Kierdorf was using the whole thing as a publicity stunt (at least since he got the "No" from LEC, and possibly longer).

I don't trust a thing that that man utters...

HieroHero

01-28-2005, 10:26 PM

2. The lucasArts deal was in the bag, and the during the day LucasArts reversed their decision.

this couldnt be true, because he told "dale" the person who solved puzzle 2 that negotiotions had faield over a week ago, yet he still put up a 3rd puzzle.. so he knew negotiotions had failed a long time ago..

now excuse me while i go burn an effigy of wolfgang

kelmer

01-28-2005, 11:04 PM

This is what I cannot understand. Why the hell would he tell Dale that negotiations had failed, and tell us they had a happy ending?

SoccerDude28

01-28-2005, 11:18 PM

This guy is trying too hard to promote his company. Though I kinda applaude his marketting skills (everyone here is talking about him and his company), I really don't take him too seriously. From the moment he released those flashes for I-JET saying it will be the best adventure game ever, and he has never produced or even worked on a commercial game be4, that sounded to me like cheap talk.

Jake

01-28-2005, 11:33 PM

Heh yes. It's great they they're trying new things, and publishing Vampyre Story, but :shifty: geez!

I'm glad there are a lot of people who feel they're in the same boat as me about this. I should have posted my rant in this thread but I didn't notice the direction it was going until after I'd posted.

Nappi

01-28-2005, 11:56 PM

Too bad that they didn't get it. It was nice to see that they honestly told us they didn't get it..

.. But then I saw the news at the Gamespot. I really hope this is some kind of misunderstanding and not a publicity trick..

jp-30

01-29-2005, 12:55 AM

This is what I cannot understand. Why the hell would he tell Dale that negotiations had failed, and tell us they had a happy ending?

My CSI styled forensic analysis of the situation leads me to only one conclusion.

They are idiots.

Kolorabi

01-29-2005, 01:32 AM

This guy is trying too hard to promote his company. Though I kinda applaude his marketting skills (everyone here is talking about him and his company), I really don't take him too seriously.
Well, some people did. I doubt they do that now, so I don't think much of his marketing skills.

If there's an honest misunderstanding or something like that behind all this, it's about time they sort things out in public. Properly, instead of laughing their way through phone conversations with Gamespot and kelmer's site. That's the only way they can come out of this with any sort of credibility left.

squarejawhero

01-29-2005, 01:40 AM

Yikes. What a confusing mess.

Personally, I think it sounds like mismanaged PR from a company that may not have a PR manager. In fact, it smacks of it... they kind of shot themselves in the foot making announcements without any hard backing and it's not something I've known any of the companies I've worked for do before.

RE Sam and Max, why not make another game using new characters from Steve Purcell anyway? Much as I love the two characters, the guys a creative man and has probably got just as characterful animated heroes floating around his skull. I'd like to see what else he can do.

AdrianWerner

01-29-2005, 02:22 AM

Bad Brain intends to be both a developer and a publisher. What's your point? That developers can't aquire licenses? Or that if Bad Brain would get Sam & Max, Telltale would certainly be the ones to make it?

But..Telltale is propably broke. New developer, without publisher... I don't think they have enough money to buy the rights from LucasArts.
Maybe they will be able to affor Sam and max license from Steve after May..but they will never have enough money to buy the code from LucasArts. Only publishers have this kind of money.

The Seed

01-29-2005, 03:10 AM

I'm not too disappointed about all this, it was always a long shot that someone was actually going to be able to salvage the code that Lucasarts had scrapped months and months ago.

I'm still pretty sure that a Sam & Max sequel will get made, maybe not this year, but hopefully sometime in the not too distant future. It's probably best that this Sam & Max: Freelance Police business has been put to rest, because maybe now someone can start a fresh on a Sam & Max 2 project, with more up date technology and what not, and make it better than Freelance Police would have been.

Marek

01-29-2005, 03:43 AM

It's far from clear to me, Marek, that Kierdorf DID violate his non-disclosure agreement.No no no, I'm well up to speed on these legal things, and I wasn't suggesting that he violated his NDA per se. I'm just saying it's generally not a smart thing to suggest to the whole world that you're getting Sam & Max 2 (or suggest it's only a matter of time) while you're still in negotiations. The Sam & Max 2 code was still the property of LucasArts, and openly flaunting with someone's property during negotiations is not exactly getting yourself a bargaining chip. I'm not surprised if that alone destroyed all goodwill on LucasArts' side.

Honestly I think that's the problem. Wolfgang Kierdorf is enthusiastic, and probably a great guy to have a beer with, but his business sense seems lacking. On his I-jet product page it says that Hal Barwood is "maybe" one of the writers. He wrote this after how many phone calls?

I think Bad Brain should just hire more amateur developers and give them a chance, like they're doing with the Orgastic Four, instead of trying to get established talent associated with the company name. Just make A Vampyre Story the flagship title, and then lay low for as long as it takes to produce some actual content for the other titles.

kelmer

01-29-2005, 04:25 AM

We wanted to make all this clear so we have made a translation of our last news post so that everyone can read the whole and true story:

http://www.aventuraycia.com

Udvarnoky

01-29-2005, 04:28 AM

But..Telltale is propably broke. New developer, without publisher... I don't think they have enough money to buy the rights from LucasArts.
Maybe they will be able to affor Sam and max license from Steve after May..but they will never have enough money to buy the code from LucasArts. Only publishers have this kind of money.

We know Telltale is not going to try to revive Freelance Police because they apparently gave it a shot a long time ago and realized it wasn't going to happen (Note how differently they handled it from Bad Brain. All we got from Telltale was pretty much "Yeah, LucasArts isn't going to do it" and that was that.) I've no doubt money was an issue, but I don't see how we're so sure that Bad Brain has all this financing either. Anyway, nobody expects Tellale (or anyone else, really) to revive Freelance Police but to get the license from Purcell once it expires and start a brand new game.

qrious

01-29-2005, 04:57 AM

Sky Warrior Bob

01-29-2005, 04:58 AM

Okay, I'm still a bit unclear on things. Way back when Bad Brain let it slip that they were trying to get their hands on Sam & Max, I also heard that a new Lucasarts off-shoot company (Telltale, I believe), was also rumored to be in negotiations for the Sam & Max title.

Now that its been made clear that the Bad Brain offer has been rejected, is there any small chance that the other offer might be taken up?

SWB

Marek

01-29-2005, 05:08 AM

if you ask me MONEY is the magic word in getting the rights from LA. its silly if someone believes that LA refused to give the rights because they were pissed off cause kierdoff violated the NDA.
i think LA asked for some money bad brain just couldnt give. its that simpleYour theory may be correct, but you're misstating the other theory. :) It doesn't have so much to do with the NDA as with the idea that Bad Brain essentially used Sam & Max 2 (a property of LucasArts) for publicity (read: business gain) before an argeement was made. In business terms that's just as serious as money. I'm just saying that it isn't silly to consider.

Steve Ince

01-29-2005, 05:40 AM

If all Bad Brain was interested in was the rights, they would simply wait a few months until the rights reverted back to Steve Purcell and negotiate with him. The only reason to go to Lucasarts is to buy the code and assets of a game that's already been partially developed, which would probably cost $2 million and probably more.

UNLESS the real reason was to generate publicity for themselves and their existing titles, knowing full well that they couldn't afford to buy S&M2. Which would be a real shame and more manipulative than enough.

Erwin_Br

01-29-2005, 06:11 AM

I think some people are jumping too fast to conlusions. Speculation, speculation.

At this moment, I really have no idea what to think of this. I just hope Purcell will team up with TellTale, or BadBrain, to continue (or rather restart) development of Sam and Max 2.

--Erwin

Royal Fool

01-29-2005, 06:15 AM

I just saw the news on this... *sigh*.

Anyway, haven't seen this posted in the thread yet so I'll just throw a link in here and a little quote:

http://bad-brain.com/news.html
This is an offical statement from our CEO:

To clear things up about Sam & Max 2 and the websites who posted news:

1. Negotiations with Lucas Arts failed. We won't get Sam & Max 2 (not the code, the artwork or anything else)

2. We don't yet have a deal with Steve Purcell but we are talking and we are talking to him since three month now. It was always our plan B to come up with when the Lucas Arts negotiations should fail.

3. When the second puzzle came, the only thing we knew was that we were negotiating Sam & Max 2. That was the only thing the 2nd puzzle was about. Telling what game it is, not the status. However the two who solved it got an answer and at this time we didn't hear from Lucas Arts for a long time. We weren't sure about the deal at all. Is it going to continue or to fail. Now we know for sure and we tell so.

4. The third puzzle wasn't about Sam & Max at all. Who said that?? I am absolutely sure I didn't!

5. I told Aventuraycia (the spanish website) that negotiations failed and that we are talking to Steve P. (the same I told you guys yesterday).

6. I didn't tell Gamespot anything like what they wrote. They called me at night and asked me about the news posted on Aventuraycia. I told them that there will be an offical statement on monday. Well after that call I decided to post the statement earlier (saturday).

I hope that clears things up. Maybe they simply wrote what they hoped to hear. But that is the status right now. Why would I ask for you support if everything would be ready and set? Why would I tell them anything else?? It makes completly no sense. I guess I only post news on Sam & Max again if there really is anything. Until you hear it from me in person or on the bad brain website: don't believe it because you hear it here and only here first!

Wolfgang Kierdorf
CEO, bad brain entertainment Ltd.

jjacob

01-29-2005, 06:35 AM

Wow I only saw this just now, damn :( but it seems there's atleast a glimmer of hope after all this mess, I mean, it looks like they're looking forward to dealing with Purcell right?! :)

ADVENTURE-RAIDER

01-29-2005, 06:44 AM

The hope is slim, very slim. Even if they get Steve P. to sell/give them the rights, they will have to make a whole new game. It will take at least a year or two! By that time... :\

EasilyConfused

01-29-2005, 06:56 AM

Your theory may be correct, but you're misstating the other theory. :) It doesn't have so much to do with the NDA as with the idea that Bad Brain essentially used Sam & Max 2 (a property of LucasArts) for publicity (read: business gain) before an argeement was made. In business terms that's just as serious as money. I'm just saying that it isn't silly to consider.
Thanks Marek for the clarification. I agree with you and after reading all the stuff people have written here and on the other thread that the biggest problem is BadBrain's bad business decisions--especially their use of Saam and Max 2 for publicity reasons, and especially when the effect of that is to irritate the very people they don't want to irritate, which is their potential market (AG fans). DUH!

And from what little I know about this (I've come to this whole thing incredibly late as is probably obvious) Steve and the Seed are absolutely right. Someone with a sincere interest in Sam & Max would be better off (financially, practically, legally) negotiating with Purcell. But anyway. :rolleyes:

jjacob

01-29-2005, 07:00 AM

The hope is slim, very slim. Even if they get Steve P. to sell/give them the rights, they will have to make a whole new game. It will take at least a year or two! By that time... :\Yeah but there is still hope! I loved the look of what-was-to-be-S&M2, but I'm sure BB will be able to conjure up something similar, if not better! Keep in mind they have a pretty damn talented staff and they are dedicated to doing it and doing it well; I'm not exactly sure yet as to what happened, but let's not be too quick a judge.
But we don't give up that easy. There is still a glimpse of hope and Steve Purcell is the one who is in charge now. We are talking ... and we are hopeing ... again.

Here is what you can do: tell Steve P. to give us Sam & Max (http://www.theinventory.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5592) and we, at bad brain promise you the best and boldest Sam & Max 3D Point&Click-Adventure ever. Support us and we will give you what you want!

Jackal

01-29-2005, 07:17 AM

Keep in mind they have a pretty damn talented staff and they are dedicated to doing it and doing it well...

They do? Who?

I think some people are jumping too fast to conlusions. Speculation, speculation.

Normally I would agree with this, but since all Bad Brain has offered fans is false hope and mixed messages, speculation is all people can do. If they wanted publicity, this is the publicity they've earned.

jjacob

01-29-2005, 08:22 AM

They do? Who? They don't? But.. but..
*rushes to bad brain's website
Damnit, you're right, I totally forgot AVS isn't an inhouse development, how could I forget Autumn Moon :(
*stupid me
:pan:
:crazy:
jjacob

After a brisk nap

01-29-2005, 08:42 AM

Bad Brain's handling of this whole matter seems very unprofessional. Would a serious company announce something along the lines of "we're trying to get the rights to a popular adventure game franchise. We can't tell you what it is, but it stars a dog and a psychotic bunny"? If this is how they handled the negotiations with LEC, I don't blame the Lucas people for turning them down.

Regarding what they did or did not say to Aventuraycia, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. A German guy who's not qualified to do PR, trying to put a positive spin on a story while speaking in English to a Spanish web reporter... a misunderstanding appears likely.

If Sam & Max 2 never gets made, is that such a tragedy? It's just a license, not a guarantee of quality. LucasArts or Steve Purcell don't own the rights to zany humor, and a team that could make a worthy S&M sequel should be able to make a great original game, too.

Udvarnoky

01-29-2005, 08:48 AM

If Sam & Max 2 never gets made, is that such a tragedy? It's just a license, not a guarantee of quality. LucasArts or Steve Purcell don't own the rights to zany humor, and a team that could make a worthy S&M sequel should be able to make a great original game, too.

But it's a game that already had a lot of work put into it, and was by all accounts awesome. That's what makes it regrettable. Sure, we have a chance at a new Sam & Max 2 as well as a bunch of original games, but it's hard not to lament a game that was basically wasted.

After a brisk nap

01-29-2005, 08:52 AM

Sure, I wish LEC hadn't cancelled Freelance Police. However, some other company buying the unfinished work, and having a different team complete it? That never sounded like a very good idea to me. Now that there's apparently no chance of that happening, we're looking at making a new game from scratch. In that situation, why is it so critical that it gets the "Sam & Max" stamp?

Udvarnoky

01-29-2005, 09:01 AM

According to Bad Brain they were going to contract the original team to finish the game.

Wormsie

01-29-2005, 09:35 AM

According to Bad Brain they were going to contract the original team to finish the game.Yet another one of their "possibly maybe we are going to do it if etc." -schemes...

Nomad

01-29-2005, 09:43 AM

This is an offical statement from our CEO:

(blah blah yadda yadda)

Wolfgang Kierdorf
CEO, bad brain entertainment Ltd.

It still amazes me that one single guy can draw that much attention without a single bit of content. He's even called "company" by some.

SoccerDude28

01-29-2005, 09:57 AM

But it's a game that already had a lot of work put into it, and was by all accounts awesome. That's what makes it regrettable. Sure, we have a chance at a new Sam & Max 2 as well as a bunch of original games, but it's hard not to lament a game that was basically wasted.
Well they weren't going for the source code were they? They were going for the license, so what difference does it make if it was 99% complete. LA holds the source code for the game. I agree, S&M was a good game not coz of the characters but because it was a good game. Just getting the license does not guarantee its qualiy.

Udvarnoky

01-29-2005, 10:00 AM

I was defending why I think never seeing Sam & Max 2 is a tragedy of sorts.

RPGCrazied

01-29-2005, 10:09 AM

LucasArts is just greedy..

I still have hope.. the ultimate decision is up to Mr. Purcell

Please dont be like LucasArts, and give us fans what we want.

SoccerDude28

01-29-2005, 10:13 AM

Well, some people did. I doubt they do that now, so I don't think much of his marketing skills.

Wolfgang comes along late last year, no one has ever heard of him be4, and he throws a bomb that he is securing the rights for a game featuring a bunny and a dog. Whatever the outcome is, he has caused lots of chit chat in the AG community. Now his company is on the radar and bad-brain is a well known name, although they haven't done anything yet. That's pretty good marketting.

Steve Ince

01-29-2005, 10:36 AM

LucasArts is just greedy..

I still have hope.. the ultimate decision is up to Mr. Purcell

Please dont be like LucasArts, and give us fans what we want.This sounds like you're ready to cast Steve Purcell as the bad guy if a Sam and Max game doesn't get made. If I were him I'd be very careful who I sold the rights to. I'd want to be sure that they only went to a company who could ensure that the license would be developed properly.

RPGCrazied

01-29-2005, 10:40 AM

No.. I really dont care who does it. :)

But it seems like, LucasArts wants to sit on the franchise - until god knows when?! Atleast some companies have some interest in the franchise.

Tellatale/BadBrain

Steve Ince

01-29-2005, 10:56 AM

If you want a good game, then you should always care who makes it.

LucasArts cannot sit on the franchise forever as the rights revert back to Steve Purcell soon.

BoyToy

01-29-2005, 11:12 AM

Now his company is on the radar and bad-brain is a well known nameYeah. Well known for being a dubious company. Congratulations, Mr. Kierdorf!!! *D *D *D
[Dang, I know his name... :frusty: ;) ]

If you want a good game, then you should always care who makes it.Couldn't agree more.

Kolorabi

01-29-2005, 11:18 AM

Well they weren't going for the source code were they?
I think that's what they were going for, yes.
Wolfgang comes along late last year, no one has ever heard of him be4, and he throws a bomb that he is securing the rights for a game featuring a bunny and a dog. Whatever the outcome is, he has caused lots of chit chat in the AG community. Now his company is on the radar and bad-brain is a well known name, although they haven't done anything yet. That's pretty good marketting.
Well, I'm talking about what happened in the last few days. If that was marketing, it was the crappiest marketing I've ever seen.

Right now, I don't know what happened between them and the spanish site (or Gamespot). I doubt I ever will, as Bad Brain claims one thing and the spanish site claims another. But whatever it was, it looks unprofessional and it resulted in the spanish site (which is probably quite important in the spanish community) saying they would never take Bad Brain seriously again. Making enemies in the press is not exactly a good marketing tactic, especially in a niche market like this.

As for the community, well, BoyToy said it well enough. :)

Wormsie

01-29-2005, 12:02 PM

No, it is good marketing. There is no such thing as bad publicity - if they DO make/release games. They didn't do anything bad enough so that people wouldn't buy their products.

...Of course, when it comes to getting business partners and stuff... that might be a different story.

Marek

01-29-2005, 01:46 PM

Kolorabi

01-29-2005, 01:50 PM

No, it is good marketing. There is no such thing as bad publicity
Oh, I can assure you there is. There's all kinds of bad publicity. For an extreme example, just imagine you run a tobacco company and somebody says they got cancer because of your cigarettes. You'll probably not be too interested in the publicity this situation might offer your company. In fact, you'll probably want them to go away.

I'm not saying the Sam & Max thing is really comparable to that, I'm just demonstrating that the phrase "there's no such thing as bad publicity" is utter rubbish. :)

- if they DO make/release games. They didn't do anything bad enough so that people wouldn't buy their products.
No, but whenever they say something in the future, people will remember this situation. Hopefully, Bad Brain will try to stay off the radar for a while, and let people forget about this business. Then start making some noise when they have something to show (and are actually in need of publicity).

...Of course, when it comes to getting business partners and stuff... that might be a different story.
Well, having a respected website say they'll never trust you again is definitely not a good thing.

kelmer

01-29-2005, 01:52 PM

I noticed on the Bad Brain forum that some people put part of the blame on Kelmer and others from Adventure y CIÁ, which really puzzles me. All they did was report on what they were told, just like GameSpot did, and just like any site would probably do if it were given the same information.

Just wanted to say I think Adventure y CIÁ did the right thing, that's all :)

Thanks. That post you mention really hurt me.

I can only tell you all that everything we published was the truth. But it's their word against ours, it's up to you to decide who to believe.

Wormsie

01-29-2005, 02:03 PM

Oh, I can assure you there is. There's all kinds of bad publicity. For an extreme example, just imagine you run a tobacco company and somebody says they got cancer because of your cigarettes. You'll probably not be too interested in the publicity this situation might offer your company. In fact, you'll probably want them to go away.

I'm not saying the Sam & Max thing is really comparable to that, I'm just demonstrating that the phrase "there's no such thing as bad publicity" is utter rubbish. :)Of course it is rubbish, but I don't see this as an example of bad marketing. For example, see how many people are NOT thinking about this as Bad Brain fooling them and being stupid? Just read the thread at the Inventory. Maybe Bad Brain's first target audience is idiots... OK, that was harsh. :crazy: But maybe I should have said "this is not necessarily bad marketing" instead of "this is not bad publicity".

Kolorabi

01-29-2005, 02:40 PM

Anyway, I don't know if this was an attempt to get publicity or not. I don't know what happened between Bad Brain & Adventure y CIÁ and Gamespot either. Maybe it was a big misunderstanding. I don't think Bad Brain handled this well, but whatever. I kind of regret being so negative. If it was a publicity stunt, it was a crappy one, but if it was just a misunderstanding, Bad Brain are getting a lot of undeserved grief over this. Let's just hope they've learned from this whole incident.

squarejawhero

01-29-2005, 03:08 PM

Perhaps Trep means "it's bad business practice"? Publicity is good and all but burning important bridges isn't a great idea.

Erwin_Br

01-29-2005, 03:27 PM

Wormsie

01-29-2005, 03:34 PM

Perhaps Trep means "it's bad business practice"? Publicity is good and all but burning important bridges isn't a great idea.Umm, as far as I can see, Trep hasn't posted in this thread...

Do our similar avatars really cause mixups?

Are him an I officially an item?

Erwin_Br

01-29-2005, 03:37 PM

Do our similar avatars really cause mixups?
Nah, I don't think they do Trepsie! :)

--Erwin

Wormsie

01-29-2005, 03:55 PM

Have you seen this? (http://www.planet-kierdorf.de/) Planet Kierdorf?!?!?!

Erwin_Br

01-29-2005, 03:58 PM

Have you seen this? (http://www.planet-kierdorf.de/) Planet Kierdorf?!?!?!
Hehe, that's funny.

And I didn't know he owns as much as 4 companies.

--Erwin

ATMachine

01-29-2005, 04:14 PM

Judging by Bad Brain's deplorable behavior, during negotiations and after, I'd say Wolfgang's been on Planet Kierdorf all this time. :shifty: Er, sorry.

Seriously....I don't know what I can say that's already been said. I feel like I've been used somehow. Although I can understand why Kierdorf was eager to tell us what he was doing.

But teasing the fans up until the end, only to disappoint them, and shifting all responsibility to others (namely LucasArts, and now Steve Purcell) seems unjustifiable. He should've kept his mouth shut until the talks were done, for good or bad.

I feel sorry for Bill Tiller. These rash actions of Bad Brain's, if not stopped, don't bode too well for A Vampyre Story's future.... (not that I'm especially eager to play it, mind you, but I'd be happy of course if it did well.)

Udvarnoky

01-29-2005, 04:26 PM

I doubt A Vampyre Story will be negatively affected by this nonsense. I like to think that Bad Brain is more or less letting Autumn Moon do what it needs to do. I'm greatly looking forward to the game, and I'm pretty sure (hope) nothing bad will happen to it.

HieroHero

01-29-2005, 04:43 PM

yes its not badbrains fault its lucasarts, kelmer, gamespot, adventure y cia and steve purcell...

and hes comments on the puzzles..he said puzzle 2 finishes 2morrow but ill put up puzzle 3 you'll just have to work harder..so it would naturally be presumed people were trying to get the answer to puzzle II.. bullshit!

SoccerDude28

01-29-2005, 04:47 PM

I think that's what they were going for, yes.

Well, I'm talking about what happened in the last few days. If that was marketing, it was the crappiest marketing I've ever seen.

Right now, I don't know what happened between them and the spanish site (or Gamespot). I doubt I ever will, as Bad Brain claims one thing and the spanish site claims another. But whatever it was, it looks unprofessional and it resulted in the spanish site (which is probably quite important in the spanish community) saying they would never take Bad Brain seriously again. Making enemies in the press is not exactly a good marketing tactic, especially in a niche market like this.

As for the community, well, BoyToy said it well enough. :)
I think we are talking about 2 different things. I wasn't talking about the marketting regarding The Spanish website incident (which really is the same as the gamespot one since gamespot took the info from the spanish website). I think there was a misunderstanding there. I was mentioning them trying to acquire Sam and Max 2 in general. Like Jake put it, it's a win-win situation for them, they are known now(I even read an article about them in PC Gamer), and they are looking like heros whereas LA is ending up looking evil. If LA gave them the rights, everyone here would be cheering. Since they don't people in general will look at them as caring for the genre and trying to revive it.

redhotray

01-29-2005, 05:00 PM

We WILL see Sam and Max 2.

Whether or not, this is a good or bad thing, remains to be seen.

HieroHero

01-29-2005, 05:26 PM

dan connors and telltale are now getting hate over at the inventory forum..gee wolfgang sure knows how to turn people against each other :frown:

artwking4

01-30-2005, 12:16 AM

dan connors and telltale are now getting hate over at the inventory forum..gee wolfgang sure knows how to turn people against each other :frown:

Great Zombie Jesus!!!

Are you sure about that? Where did you get that information, HieroHero? I'm a recent regular over at the Inventory forum, and I'm trying to be a regular at Telltale, too. I like both companies, really! That might not be a popular opinion around here... but it's how I feel. I don't think that anyone at the Bad Brain/Inventory forum hates Telltale or is trying to smear them. I just can't find it there... I think maybe ONE person commented (quite mistakenly) that Dan Connors is unproven and that he was only successful because of LucasArts financial blanket or something like that. But that's just one person, and he/she probably just didn't know what he was talking about. Prove me wrong, though. I'll defend Telltale over there! :)

Seriously, all of this bashing of companies that are just trying to make adventure games is really discouraging for the genre as a whole. After this debacle, I wouldn't blame all adventure developers to just throw their hands up in surrender and pursue other goals. I know we're all disappointed and pissed, but I really think these are far more a result of misunderstandings than any completely malicious behavior. Yeah, Wolfgang should have kept his mouth shut, we can all agree on that. It was unwise to use S&M to try to build publicity for Bad Brain until the deal was made. But it was good to have Sam & Max back in the news. It's infinitely more fun to rumor about the possibility of a well-loved game than it is to make posts about your "top 20 adventure games" all the time (as d.manos from The Inventory said). This is just my thought, but somehow, I just don't think that LucasArts would have ever actually given up their code. But unless we hear a word about the negotiations from them, NO ONE is going to have the full story on what went on here. I never would have thought that I would say that LucasArts was the last bastion for truth... So crucifying someone for trying to get what we've all wanted since last March when S&M were cancelled, no matter how ill-fated, is not fair. We simply do not have all the facts to make judgement here. All we have are rumors.

Concerning respected sites like Adventure y CIÁ or GameSpot, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that over-eager reporters are more than willing to jump the gun and interpret extremely juicy news according to how they want things to turn out, and then report on that without having the full truth. And then when confronted about it, they refuse to admit any wrong-doing, however accidental. To do so would injure their journalistic pride AND credibility. CBS News Anchor Dan Rather, anyone? It happens to the best of them. But at least he apologised. Eventually. I'd say it's not too late, but the recent posting on Adventure y CIÁ is rather scathing. I don't know...

Oh well. I've said my piece.
:waits for barrage of seething ball of hate from the teeming millions: (there is no smiley for that... :) )

Jake

01-30-2005, 01:23 AM

squarejawhero

01-30-2005, 02:45 AM

Sorry, deadsie.

You gave away Trep's gender though, dammit! :D

artwking4

01-30-2005, 03:15 AM

I don't quite know why in your post just now you acted like you wanted to hold Gamespot and Adventure y CIA accountable for accuracy and truth and then accuse them of not giving either to maintain their pride and credibility, but you don't say the same about Bad Brain? Why is Bad Brain intrinsically more trusted than these two sites whose only job is to accurately report the news?

Well. Did they have all of the information? Nope, it doesn't appear that way, or else we wouldn't be discussing this. It looks like they pretty much just filled in the blanks with what they thought they knew. Like all of us have done. The difference is that we're not professional news gatherers. Reporting hunches is not journalism. You can't just take whatever the media, any media, says as gospel truth. You'd be a fool to do that. There's always another side that got left out, a truth that didn't get exposed for whatever reason, a misunderstanding that didn't get touched on. But yeah, just so I'm being fair: Bad Brain isn't any more trustworthy then any other company on this Earth. The only difference is that they don't have a PR department just yet to make a spin on simple (yet critical) mistakes. Journalistic media, all they have to do is print something remotely plausible and people will just eat it all up, apparently. People have already made up their minds, even without knowing the whole story. Whatever the whole story is. If something earth-shattering comes up, I'll make up my mind. But I'm not blaming just one man for making all of this happen. That's insane. Everybody wanted Freelance Police, so everybody let this happen. And it looks like almost everybody is willing to nail this guy's throat to a wall for it. Just calm down, everyody.

As for why Adventure y CIA has lost credibility, I suggest you look at this post by Dimitris Manos of the Inventory.org:
The co-operation with Aventura y Cia is over (http://www.theinventory.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=657)

It's long, so make yourself a sandwich or something...

Edit: If someone makes a mistake, they should acknowledge it, and make an apology. This is especially important for journalism, who are quite capable at making excuses saying things like "Well, that's what we were told" (even though they were never actually told everything), when they should have either done more digging, or waited, or just report nothing at that time.

I will say, though, that Bad Brain should probably make an apology, too, to appease all of these people who felt that they were wronged with "false publicity". Whether it was intentional or not, it happened. And unintentional wrongdoing still deserves an apology. It definitely would not do any more harm than has already been perceived.

kelmer

01-30-2005, 03:19 AM

As for why Adventure y CIA has lost credibility, I suggest you look at this post by Dimitris Manos of the Inventory.org:
The co-operation with Aventura y Cia is over (http://www.theinventory.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=657)

Oh yeah. A bunch of accusations with no fundament make us lose our credibility. We explained everything just below, but, hey, you gotta believe what you gotta believe...

ragnar

01-30-2005, 03:38 AM

As for why Adventure y CIA has lost credibility, I suggest you look at this post by Dimitris Manos of the Inventory.org:
The co-operation with Aventura y Cia is over (http://www.theinventory.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=657)

And that post is credible, unbiased and a result from professional journalism?

When we started with The Inventory I had given them permission to publish the Spanish version of The Inventory. After a while, as there was a lot of unjustified criticism of The Inventory and myself personally on their forums, even by some of the staff, I decided to stop cooperating with them.
It is rather clear that dmitri loathes Aventura y Cia because someone there dared to critisize him. From that post it's rather clear that Dmitri hasn't changed much since his rantings here in the Adventure Gamers forums from back before he started The Inventory.

EDIT: I have little idea of what has been going on between The Inventory and Aventura y Cia and I don't read either publication, so this is opinion is only based on that particular post by Dmitri.

artwking4

01-30-2005, 03:46 AM

Oh yeah. A bunch of accusations with no fundament make us lose our credibility. We explained everything just below, but, hey, you gotta believe what you gotta believe...

Well, there's always the possibility that i could change my mind.

And I never thought I'd be having it out with a Spanish reporter. How about that? :D

So I hereby retract what I said about the actual organizations of GameSpot and Adventure y CIA themselves. They can't necessarily control the actions of one reporter who takes bad news personally.

But your handling of things so far is pretty unprofessional, to say the least. You should have just posted the bad news when you heard about and left it at that. Without all of the whining commentary. No one's interested in how you feel that you were wrongfully denied the adventure game scoop of the year. But maybe that's the sort of thing Spanish readers want. I really don't know.

Risingson

01-30-2005, 03:58 AM

But your handling of things so far is pretty unprofessional, to say the least. You should have just posted the bad news when you heard about and left it at that. Without all of the whining commentary. No one's interested in how you feel that you were wrongfully denied the adventure game scoop of the year. But maybe that's the sort of thing Spanish readers want. I really don't know.

No. We whined because we were told a different thing. Therefore, we were lied to keep our hopes and our hype as high as possible. There's no rule in journalism which say that you can't complain about this.

We only had a sin: naivety. The rest of what you are saying is fallacious and malign.

artwking4

01-30-2005, 04:18 AM

No. We whined because we were told a different thing. Therefore, we were lied to keep our hopes and our hype as high as possible. There's no rule in journalism which say that you can't complain about this.

We only had a sin: naivety. The rest of what you are saying is fallacious and malign.

Weeeeellllll... okay. I'm sorry then... :frown: but I still have difficulty believing you were actually lied to. there are contradictions that I can't quite wrap my head around. :confused: You have to admit, that lying about that only to say the opposite a few hours later makes absolutely no sense. What good could ever come of that? None, as we all have discovered. It's crazy talk to think that this is something that wouldn't have been expected after doing that to you or anyone else. Someone either has extremely fuzzy memories of phone conversations, or as I've thought before, a mistranslation occurred in someone's head. Some kind of SERIOUS miscommunication.

Risingson

01-30-2005, 04:22 AM

Christ. I would tell you that next time we will record the phone conversation, if that wasn't illegal.

Steve Ince

01-30-2005, 04:56 AM

I'm going to have to stop recording my phone conversations? :D

Risingson

01-30-2005, 04:57 AM

I'm going to have to stop recording my phone conversations? :D

Not necessarily so. If you only have them for personal use (I mean, if nobody else knows it) you can keep on doing it :P

artwking4

01-30-2005, 05:03 AM

Christ. I would tell you that next time we will record the phone conversation, if that wasn't illegal.

heh... probably not a good idea with confidential conversations, you're right. well, sorry again. I realize I wasn't being very fair, still not having all of the information possible. I'm still not sure what to think, but unless I heard what you heard, I couldn't really say. If I had, it's still entirely possible that I could have perceived it another way. But I'm not in the business of spreading the joy of adventure games. I still don't think you were intentionally lied to, but I'll just drop the whole Aventura y Cia/Kelmer thing. It doesn't seem to be getting anywhere, and probably shouldn't have anyway.

jp-30

01-30-2005, 09:58 AM

> Why is Bad Brain intrinsically more trusted than these two sites whose only job is to accurately report the news?

I'd just like to raise the small point that BBE use The Inventory.org as their forum host. I don't know what their hosting deal is. Money may change hands, but at the very least the two companies have some sort of loose business agreement.

Meaning... the Inventory will always be biased toward BBE.

fov

01-30-2005, 10:00 AM

Weeeeellllll... okay. I'm sorry then... but I still have difficulty believing you were actually lied to. there are contradictions that I can't quite wrap my head around.

Considering not one, but two news sources, came to the same conclusion after two separate phone calls, leads me to believe there WAS some confusing information (whether or not it was intentionally confusing) given during those calls. It's easy to blame the news sources because they're the ones who put it in writing, but they are only the messengers.

Kelmer and Risingson, I'm sorry all this happened to you guys. :frown:

-emily

SoccerDude28

01-30-2005, 10:15 AM

it is not beyond the realm of possibility that over-eager reporters are more than willing to jump the gun and interpret extremely juicy news according to how they want things to turn out, and then report on that without having the full truth
I'm sorry but you are asking us to be fair, while you are obviously taking sides. We both don't know who's true in this scenario, so why should I believe Bad-Brain's word over the website. Just coz one is a game developer and the other is a gaming magazine. I personally, and that's my personal opinion, don't see why kelmer would enthusiastically post something like this when he knows it's gonna be proven wrong. What website in their right state of mind will do that.

After a brisk nap

01-30-2005, 10:17 AM

I can easily imagine something like...

What Wolfgang intended to say: "LucasArts have cut off negotiations. They are not going to give us the code. We're now hoping that we can talk to Steve Purcell and get the license from him."

What Wolfgang did say: "The negotiations are over. Now we are talking to Steve Purcell to see if he can help us. We'd love to have him work on the game."

What Aventuraycia heard: "We got the license and code from LucasArts, and Steve Purcell is going to be involved in finishing the game."

When you have a representative who likes to talk more about what the company hopes to do than what they've done, no professional PR guy who knows how to spin things properly, and the people involved all speak different languages, this kind of confusion seems nearly inevitable.

The explosion of recriminations and accusations that have followed, from Bad Brains, Aventuraycia and The Inventory, indicates to me that unprofessionalism in the adventure game community is not limited to a single company.

jp-30

01-30-2005, 10:17 AM

Staffers at German startup developer Bad Brain entertainment Ltd. laughed their way through a brief phone conversation today, confirming they would be posting news of their first major game assignment on Monday.

It will be very interesting to see if a major game announcemnt from Bad-Brain is forthcoming within the next 24-48 hours.

Jackal

01-30-2005, 10:20 AM

My take is this:

Personally, I doubt anybody lied. I suspect Kierdorf was probably being a little too coy with his comments, and combined with translation issues, that led to a massive misunderstanding. The goal of any PR is to turn a negative into a positive, and maybe Kierdorf did it in such a way that it sounded like one and the same thing. Hey, it happens.

EDIT: Yeah, what Snarky said before I finished rambling, although I suspect that quote #2 was even more positive sounding than that.

For their part in the misunderstanding, Bad Brain should now be trying to smooth things over with the two news sites (and maybe they are, I don't know). The two news sites should be gracious in admitting their stories were wrong, with a non-malicious explanation of how wires got crossed.

Can't stop people from arguing about it, but any press site should be more than a little respectful of how easily a story can go wrong.

squarejawhero

01-30-2005, 10:30 AM

Is it me, or isn't it the Spanish site that's only accepted culpability and practically apologised for what happened?

Man, some people are SO wound up over this. I can't imagine what it's like being IN it... accusations flying everywhere... I can understand bad feeling between each seperate party, but to have "fans" wading in and having a go as if their own personal feelings and/or business relationship has been soured?

It's goddamn pathetic. You'd think it was the second coming of Christ... much as I'd love to play it, I remember when it was announced in 3D and the groan from the community who's majority immediately cast doubts on it... it's a GAME people. GROW UP.

artwking4

01-30-2005, 10:31 AM

jp-30

01-30-2005, 10:42 AM

Hmm. According to someone on the BBE forum (http://www.theinventory.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5838#5838) the Major Game Assignment announcement on Monday as reported by GameSpot was actually reported by BBE on Saturday and simply referred to the non-aquisition of Sam & Max.

Hardly what I would refer to as a Major Game Assignment , but no doubt GameSpot misquoted Kierdorf, lost in translation, yada yada yada... :crazy:

artwking4

01-30-2005, 11:01 AM

Hardly what I would refer to as a Major Game Assignment , but no doubt GameSpot misquoted Kierdorf, lost in translation, yada yada yada... :crazy:

yes, it's all crazy, regrettably. I just really hope this can get sorted out soon. this doesn't seem as black and white as we all think it is.

Risingson

01-30-2005, 11:13 AM

The explosion of recriminations and accusations that have followed, from Bad Brains, Aventuraycia and The Inventory, indicates to me that unprofessionalism in the adventure game community is not limited to a single company.

Thanks. Now tell me where we did wrong.

artwking4

01-30-2005, 11:32 AM

Thanks. Now tell me where we did wrong.

This is a shot in the dark... And I'm serious here, but saying things like: Our first-hand informations from the CEO of Bad Brain Wolfgang Kierdorf (who we shall never trust again) were way different or we won't definitely contribute to some company selling more fine bottles filled with air. is a pretty harsh initial reaction from a news publication. Especially if there's a possibility of a misunderstanding. Do you remember the exact words Wolfgang told you? You don't want to risk being sued for libel for a simple error in translation. It happens. I'm just saying be careful, that's all. I believe now that you heard what you think you did, but I don't know what you know, and not everybody is being completely forthcoming about what they know. It just looks like everybody is on the defensive and refusing to put their cards on the table. As it is, I really don't feel like being anyone's "side" on this anymore. I see how you were hurt, but also I see Wolfgang's point of view. For my part, i apologize. I don't think it's worth it, fighting like this, and no good will come of it, from any of the parties involved.

DustCropper

01-30-2005, 11:37 AM

Did you guys know, if you go to Gamespot, look in their PC section, and check out their Most Popular PC Games under the Coming Soon tab, Sam and Max is rated number 1. I find that to be very cool. 8-)

Anyways, I'm not very disappointed by this, as I wasn't really expecting it to happen when I first heard about it. :)

kelmer

01-30-2005, 11:40 AM

Do you remember the exact words Wolfgang told you?

"The negotiations are finished and we will do a completely new sam and max with the help of Steve Purcell."

kelmer

01-30-2005, 11:43 AM

"The negotiations are finished and we will do a completely new sam and max with the help of Steve Purcell."

Moreso, to avoid language problems, every time he ended a sentence I would repeat it in my own words, you know, to see if I did get the whole thing correctly. And he would always say 'yes'.

After a brisk nap

01-30-2005, 11:53 AM

"The negotiations are finished and we will do a completely new sam and max with the help of Steve Purcell."Right. The implication there is that the negotiations failed, because if they had succeeded they would have the code from LucasArts, and wouldn't be doing a completely new game.

Note also that in German, the word "will" means "want to". "Ich will" means "I want to", and to say "I will" you have to say "Ich werde".

It's therefore quite plausible that when he said they will do a completely new Sam & Max game, he meant that they want to do a completely new game.

artwking4

01-30-2005, 11:56 AM

"The negotiations are finished and we will do a completely new sam and max with the help of Steve Purcell."

okay... yeah, I see how that's misleading. but it's not lying, either, as far as I can tell.

The negotiations are finishedIn truth, the negotiations were finished. They just weren't successful...:sad:

we will do a completely new sam and max with the help of Steve PurcellWell, I'll agree that this is likely saying more than he should at the moment, since nothing has been set in stone that we know of. however, it can also be interpreted as an announcement of intent. Ever the positive thinker, Wolfgang is...

This is just me, but the way I look at this part: we will do a completely new sam and max This appears to be an admission of a sort that they were unsuccessful in getting the unfinished source code and artistic materials from LucasArts, so they want to start from scratch.

But it's all open to interpretation. I can see how you think you were screwed, I guess, but I see it the other way, too, that it wasn't intentional. Devil's advocate sort of thing, right?:devil: ;)

Risingson

01-30-2005, 11:56 AM

artwking4

01-30-2005, 11:58 AM

Right. The implication there is that the negotiations failed, because if they had succeeded they would have the code from LucasArts, and wouldn't be doing a completely new game.

Note also that in German, the word "will" means "want to". "Ich will" means "I want to", and to say "I will" you have to say "Ich werde".

It's therefore quite plausible that when he said they will do a completely new Sam & Max game, he meant that they want to do a completely new game.

Damn, you're smart, Snarky! And I can say that Wolfgang is prone to let German verbs slip in his posts over at the Bad Brain forum. I'd say it was endearing, but it looks like it's gotten him to all kinds of trouble.

Lehman

01-30-2005, 12:05 PM

No, no and no. The fact is that kelmer repeated the words of Wolgang in his own words. Thus, he said something like "so you have make a deal with lucasarts in order to make a new sam and max, and you will rely on steve purcell". Kierdorf answered "yes". So there was no missunderstanding. Also, we at Aventura y CÍA were told in the first phone call that they would do a completely new sam and max because the version of LA wasn't a good one, and they'd want to improve the graphics engine.

And Kierdorf talked in perfect English, not in germnglish.

After a brisk nap

01-30-2005, 12:09 PM

Snarky... it feels that in any way, there is space for a confusion. Yes could mean maybe, will could mean want, and so on. Kelmer repeated what he heard in other words to make sure he understood it well, and he replied "yes". There is little room for misinterpretation there, I think :|It may seem like there's no room for misinterpretation, but I know from experience that it's not a foolproof system.

I live in the US, but English is not my first language. Ordering in an ethnic (Chinese, Korean, Thai, Indian, Mexican etc.) restaurant can be a bizarre experience:

-I'd like the "Nam Prik Oong" and an ice tea, please.
-Ahh, you want [unintelligible]?
-Errr... yes?

By the time I get the food I really have no idea what it is. And my English is pretty good, though I say so myself.

Lehman

01-30-2005, 12:16 PM

Talk to a waiter of an ethnic food restaurant is such a different situation...

Kelmer wasn't ordering the chinese chicken, was talking clearly about a game, and he repeated the words in order to assure that were correct. And also, we talked with Kierdorf several times, with the same final conclusions...

After a brisk nap

01-30-2005, 12:25 PM

OK, I'm not gonna argue about what was and what was not said in a conversation I wasn't present at. I'll just state that nothing you've told us sounds like it couldn't have been the product of misunderstandings on top of some over-enthusiastic spin, and leave it at that.

jp-30

01-30-2005, 12:45 PM

Casting aside Adventura & Gamespots "misunderstandings", there're still some rather poorly worded statements on the BBE site.

The big rant by Kierdorf saysing "It was so degrading" and ending with a public plea to beg Purcell for starters.

Really all that should have been posted was a simple, non-emotive, statement along the lines of;

Negotiations with LucasArts for the existing Sam & Max code have fallen through. We are now pursuing obtaining the rights from Steve Purcell to create a new Sam & Max game from scratch.

I hope BBE learn from this fiasco and act with a little more tact and subtlety in future, even if it means holding their cards closer to their chest and being less forthcoming with information. And of course I'm still very much looking forward to their publishing of Vampyre Story and future Autumn Moon products.

artwking4

01-30-2005, 01:07 PM

yeah, many things could have been handled better by Bad Brain (as well as others, but I won't harp on it anymore). I won't argue against that anymore. Bad Brain needs more people on staff to take care of things, rather than a one-man operation that it seems t be at the moment. It's just too much, it appears. I'm sure he's learned from it now. And so has the press. And I don't mean, "now we know not to trust each other anymore." That would only hurt the concerned parties in the long run. Everybody has overreacted about this. Nobody is infallible and nobody is perfect. Right?

artwking4

01-30-2005, 05:46 PM

From the Aventura y CÍA (http://www.aventuraycia.com/) main site: All through this night we've held a long conversation with Worlfgang Kierdorf regarding the recent controversy about all this Sam and Max issue that has been on the minds of every adventurer during the last days, and we've both come to the conclusion that the whole thing was just a misunderstanding. Bad Brain's CEO ultimately wanted to make it clear that negotiations had fallen trough and, maybe because the way he spoke was confusing, maybe because we really didn't understand or self-translated correctly, we misinterpreted that negotiations had come to a happy end. So, when we realised of the real story we felt fooled and our dissapointment was reflected in the last news item that has been the main reason of the controversy.

Fortunately, things have been settled down to a freindly solution and we finally learned that BBE didn't get the license, and that was what Mr. Kierdorf actually told us last friday. We are aware that this has been a serious hit on the integrity and credibility of both Bad Brain Entertainment and our website, and because of that we want to say to the german company that we are sorry: we never wanted to call liar to someone who actually wasn't. But we also want to make clear that we would never have given such big publicity to all this stuff hadn't this misunderstanding happened. We stayed behind our position simply because we were frankly convinced that it was the correct one, but after having some conversations with Wolfgang we've realized we made a mistake and we are decided to retract ourselves.

I'm REALLY glad to hear that this was all just a really unfortunate misunderstanding, and even more glad that you all could sort it out between yourselves. I suspected this was the case, but went about expressing in the wrong way earlier on in this forum thread. Once again, apologies to Kelmer and all. (I'll stop apologizing so much now :), I think this is the fourth time;) )

HieroHero

01-30-2005, 07:54 PM

how is not getting sam and max a "happy end" ? :confused:

ConcreteRancor

01-30-2005, 09:05 PM

I keep feeling like AG's been playing the role of a jury in all of this, while AYC is the prosecutor and BBE is the defendant.

Glad to hear things have been settled out of court. :P

artwking4

01-30-2005, 09:12 PM

how is not getting sam and max a "happy end" ? :confused:I don't think that's what they said, or were trying to say, that is... I think they said that, for whatever reason, they misunderstood Wolfgang's words as meaning that negotiations came to a "happy end", when it was actually the opposite...

Bad Brain's CEO ultimately wanted to make it clear that negotiations had fallen trough and, maybe because the way he spoke was confusing, maybe because we really didn't understand or self-translated correctly, we misinterpreted that negotiations had come to a happy end.

I don't think anyone can say that the denial of Freelance Police is a happy ending for anyone. I shudder to think of a single person who would...:eek:

Risingson

01-30-2005, 11:38 PM

Well, now it's time to say something like "move along, there's nothing to see". Sorry everyone for this incident.

Avinash_Tyagi

01-31-2005, 06:12 AM

I think it came to this, a german publisher and a spanish web site.

german-->spanish and back, if people speaking the same language can have misunderstandings then what does that say about different languages.

glad to see everyones made up though, a misunderstanding is no reason to hold a grudge over.

As for Bad Brain, while I agree that it was kind of dumb on his part to start talking about the liscense negotiations while under the NDA, I can kind of understand, It would be hard to keep your excitement in check, if it was me I probably would have done the same thing (which is why I don't own a game company ;) )