I want to be the bad guy.

[stepurhan]

Why is it in adventure games you always seem to be the guy (or gal) intent on saving the world or bringing down the villain? I want to be evil once in a while! (as a contrast to my sweet and lovely real-life persona :D )

In Warcraft I can play the Orcs or the Undead. If I feel like evil management action I can load up Dungeon Keeper. Even RPGs such as Baldur's Gate give me the freedom to become an evil thief/murderer attacked by the law wherever I go. So why in adventure games is my final aim (ignoring certain dodgy activity (http://forums.adventuregamers.com/showthread.php?t=5273) I might engage in on the way :P ) so unrelentingly good?

The only exception I know of is Legend of Kyrandia 3 - Malcolm's Revenge. Can anyone point out other AGs that will allow me to exercise my darker side? :devil:

[ragnar]

And why need it be good or evil at all? I want the characters to be a little more complex than just being good or evil.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

In my opinion, morality and ethical decisions don't yet seem to have any use in 'traditional' adventure games (too bad). So what if you get to be evil? It's still a linear path with the same goals - instead of saving the world you're out to destroy it, instead of helping people you ruin their lives, instead of solving puzzles to get somewhere you solve them to break something. How boring is that? :Z

This is one main reason I'm having a great time with RPGs like KoTOR and Fable. The thing is, moral and ethical decisions mean nothing until the game/story/etc. give you consequences for your decisions and you must claim responsibility for them. An adventure game that can do this would actually be quite innovative, progressive, and more complex than your average adventure game (and possibly more appealing to a larger crowd beyond the typical hardcore adventure gamer). It means it must have branching storylines and subplots, puzzles tailored to the player's decided alignment, and other things. In short, it will feel much more like an RPG but without combat or action.

For example, what if there were an adventure game where you play a police officer and during that white slavery and drug operation you're investigating undercover you are asked to prove your loyalty to the drug lord by killing one of your partners, a female cop disguised as one of the prostitutes? If you shoot her all suspicion of you will drop and the investigation will not be blown. But if you hesitate the drug lord may kill you both (or at least it'll end up making your investigation next to impossible to carry out). Either way, each decision will have its respective snowball effect.

[lumi]

I'm not sure I'd want to play an evil character, unless it was a comedic game. I'm just too nice a guy to do evil things, unless it involves dark humor. Like in the game Thief, I always blackjack people instead of killing them. I guess there are some exceptions for me. Like in Warcraft, I don't mind playing the misunderstood orcs against the xenophobic humans.

[SoccerDude28]

Why is it in adventure games you always seem to be the guy (or gal) intent on saving the world or bringing down the villain? I want to be evil once in a while! (as a contrast to my sweet and lovely real-life persona :D )

In Warcraft I can play the Orcs or the Undead. If I feel like evil management action I can load up Dungeon Keeper. Even RPGs such as Baldur's Gate give me the freedom to become an evil thief/murderer attacked by the law wherever I go. So why in adventure games is my final aim (ignoring certain dodgy activity (http://forums.adventuregamers.com/showthread.php?t=5273) I might engage in on the way :P ) so unrelentingly good?

The only exception I know of is Legend of Kyrandia 3 - Malcolm's Revenge. Can anyone point out other AGs that will allow me to exercise my darker side? :devil:

I think you are right. There is barely any adventure game that puts you in the evil person's shoes. It will be a nice change, to build a game were you are the evil person. You can learn about his motives, psychology and everything else that led him to crime. I actually usually like to play villain in games. Usually when given a chance to be good or evil, I swing to the light side, like in KOTOR, but it's cool to see how a gangster lives like ( and GTA is a great example of that). Actually my favorite hollywood movies cast the hero as the bad guy, like Menace to society and American History-X both of which are really superb movies. They usually end up with the moral that crime does not take you anywhere, and that's a very positive and strong message to convey in a video game, though people will assume that you're the bad guy, so the game is gonna have negative influence.

[BacardiJim]

Nobody else has played Midnight Nowhere? :devil:

[beat!the!champ!]

I've always thought playing pacman as the ghosts would be fun for a few minutes. Or any of those old arcade games.

[jjacob]

If you really want to exercise your dark side, there was this game some time ago, I can't remember its name, though. The 'objective' was to kill as many people as possible (or something), most or all of which were completely innocent. I think the company that made it re-did the game recently and re-released it with terrorist/most-wanteds skins :frusty: Luckily I somehow managed to avoid playing this game :eek:

[LeChimp]

Nobody else has played Midnight Nowhere? :devil:

Probably not because most people seemed to think that it sucked.

I've always thought playing pacman as the ghosts would be fun for a few minutes. Or any of those old arcade games.

Actually there was something like that made for the gamecube, one person hooked up his gameboy to the gamecube and they played as pacman and could see the whole screen on their gameboy. Everyone else played as a ghost and tried to find pacman and could only see a small area of the map around them.

If you really want to exercise your dark side, there was this game some time ago, I can't remember its name, though. The 'objective' was to kill as many people as possible (or something), most or all of which were completely innocent. I think the company that made it re-did the game recently and re-released it with terrorist/most-wanteds skins :frusty: Luckily I somehow managed to avoid playing this game :eek:

Postal 2? The objective wasn't actually to kill people, it was actually to do everyday chores like pick up milk and stuff, you could easily beat the game without killing people, it's just less entertaining (will probably get flamed for that)

[crabapple]

There is The Dark Eye.

[DustCropper]

There is The Dark Eye.Yeah! It was so cool playing the murderer, and then playing it again as the victim. :)

[Bard09]

I think villainy has great comedic potential as far as the linear adventure game is concerned.

Think Murray in Monkey Island. Or think about an adventure game in an era similar to "Evil Genius" where you start out as a scrappy kid and pursue life as an epic super villain.

It's adventure gold. Eclecticism actually makes sense this way.

What to do with that tennis racket and the coat hanger? Turn it into a dastardly death trap for your 'guests'. Imprisoned by the world's finest crime organization? Show 'em whose boss and arrange an escape for yourself.

'Serious' villainly might not go over as well though. Think of the backlash to games like Grand Theft Auto or even the aforementioned Postal 2. Plus, comedy appeals to people accross platforms.

[MDMaster]

I still think it depends on who the main character actually is, rather than he/she being good or evil. Not every adventure character in the past was actually 'pure of heart', think about Ben of FT and you might realize he's not the good guy you always thought (yeah, he did save the day, but he's still a small time crook riding a bike).
So if the bad guy actually gets to do something interesting and different from the run-of-the-mill adventuring, this makes sense, otherwise it's no big deal.

Still an adventure where you play as the good and the bad guy too could be an interesting idea.

[stepurhan]

I still think it depends on who the main character actually is, rather than he/she being good or evil. Not every adventure character in the past was actually 'pure of heart', think about Ben of FT and you might realize he's not the good guy you always thought (yeah, he did save the day, but he's still a small time crook riding a bike).
So if the bad guy actually gets to do something interesting and different from the run-of-the-mill adventuring, this makes sense, otherwise it's no big deal.

Still an adventure where you play as the good and the bad guy too could be an interesting idea.
I take your point about Ben being a bad guy. Outside the game story he probably does spend his time engaging in petty villainy and vicious fights with rival biker gangs. But it doesn't change the fact that in FT he brings down the schemes of the arch-villain Ripburger.

There are a lot of games where you have complex characters who are more bad than good. I'm all for characters being well-rounded and not 2-dimensional stereotypes. It just seems that the final aim, more often than not, is one which could be considered good. There's no reason a well-written villainy story should be any worse than a cliched "only you can save the day" setup.

It'd probably be easier to do such a game with a more humourous bent but, with games like Hitman:Contracts freely available, I don't know if it's as vital as it once was.

[MDMaster]

It probably won't be worse than a clichéd good guy story, but still a clichéd bad guy one would be equally boring, I think. The problem, once again, lies in the story itself, not in the characters who star in it.
Although I may agree that a totally boring story could benefit of a fun twist like playing the villain but it wouldn't change that much in the game.

And btw, is it really that evil when you stop producing motorcycles and instead start making vans? :D

[Intrepid Homoludens]

It probably won't be worse than a clichéd good guy story, but still a clichéd bad guy one would be equally boring, I think. The problem, once again, lies in the story itself, not in the characters who star in it.
Although I may agree that a totally boring story could benefit of a fun twist like playing the villain but it wouldn't change that much in the game.

Yep, that's wot I stated in my post above:

So what if you get to be evil? It's still a linear path with the same goals - instead of saving the world you're out to destroy it, instead of helping people you ruin their lives, instead of solving puzzles to get somewhere you solve them to break something. How boring is that? :Z

And like I stated, throw in such things as moral repurcussions - make it very, very difficult to be bad, entail each and every decision with some kind of potential tragedy unto characters the player may have become attached to, have the game screw with your [potential] guilt! Then it may get interesting and worthwhile.

[MDMaster]

Like most people here, I usually reply without reading anything except the first post. Or was it the last post? Oh well either way, that was a good point :p

[stepurhan]

And btw, is it really that evil when you stop producing motorcycles and instead start making vans? :D
Um. And the little matters of murder and attempted murder?

I agree with Trep that a serious bad guy game would work best with you being faced by the moral and legal repercussions of villainy. If this was done well I think it could make a fascinating adventure experience. To play a character so totally at odds with our own (at least I'm assuming that applies to most of us :P ) would be a fantastic escapist experience.

But it would need to be handled expertly to work. This is maybe why humorous villainy would be an easier path to take. Perhaps a burglary story where your object was to steal a precious item from a house. You could have all the typical adventure games puzzles (particularly the one's involved with accessing new areas) and character interaction could be brought in with the main character masquerading as a guest and having to fool the house's other residents as to their true purpose.

[CrimsonBlue]

I wonder, is The Clue! not one of these games?

And what about Legend of Kyrandia 3 - Malcolm's Revenge?

[ClarkGable]

Well, there are some games that you can play as the "bad" (whatever that means) guy, the list below contains games from all genres, not only adventure games:

1. Aliens vs. Predator series (you can play as the Alien or the Predator, which are considered "bad")
2. Warcraft series (play as the Orcs, Undead, etc.)
3. Lord of the Rings - War of the Ring (play as the bad guys, forgot how they're called here)
4. Star Wars - Galactic Battlegrounds (play as the Trade Federation, Darth Vader's forces, Dark Jedis, etc.)
5. Blitzkrieg (you can play as the Germans)
6. Command & Conquer series (play as NOD forces, Iraqis, Chinese, etc.)
7. Red Alert series (play as the Soviets, Yuri's forces)
8. Dune series (mainly Dune 2000 and Emperor - Battle for Dune) (play as Harkonnen or Ordos houses)
9. Mafia (play as a mafioso) (best game of all time IMHO)
10. Grand Theft Auto series (play as an underworld thug)
11. Hitman series (play as a hitman)
12. Manhunt (play as a brutal "escaped" convict)
13. Gangland (play as a family of mafiosos)
14. Postal series (play as a psychotic guy, sorry, don't have a better description)
15. Enclave (play as the Dark or Light sides)
16. Starcraft (play as the Zerg)
17. Battlefield 1942 (play as the Axis nations)
18. Carmageddon series (play as a psychotic driver)
19. NOLF 2 - Contract J.A.C.K. (play as a hitman)
20. Black & White (play as either a good or evil god)
21. The Dark Eye (play as a novelish murderer)
22. Axis & Allies (again, play as the Axis nations)
23. Legacy of Kain series (play as Kain)

After all's said and done, there aren't many games out there that let you play as the "bad" guy. However, some games have gone beyond the good & evil aspect and have created more complex experiences.

[Terabin]

It means it must have branching storylines and subplots, puzzles tailored to the player's decided alignment, and other things. In short, it will feel much more like an RPG but without combat or action.

Is having all of this in an adventure game at this moment in time just wishful thinking though?

Do adventure game developers have the money to use an engine or create an engine capable of creating a world and puzzles that are tailored to choices made by the gamer?

I can see how maybe one could create multiple linear paths like in the Fate of Atlantis, but are adventure game developers capable of non-linear engines at this point, keeping the financial issue in mind?

[Two birds]

This question has been bothering me for a while. No one considers themselves 'evil', everything thinks what they're doing is good or necessary. People do the best they can in life.

Then I realized that video games are power fantasies, and of course people like playing badass assholes if they have a chance to. Quake deathmatch tells me the same thing; people like shooting other people in the face... in a simulated environment.

I just don't think it's that interesting. Like Trep said, you're doing the same crap, just cackling maniacally while you do it. Having real choices and having the gameworld react to you is much more important.

I'm always surprised adventure games aren't more non-linear. It seems like there would be more chance for the designers to say, "Okay, we don't have to worry about amazing graphics or balancing a gazillion numbers, let's let the player do what they want."

[AFGNCAAP]

The main character in Salammbo wasn't exactly crystal clear, was he?
2. Warcraft series (play as the Orcs, Undead, etc.)
3. Lord of the Rings - War of the Ring (play as the bad guys, forgot how they're called here) Umm... you mean Orcs?

[BacardiJim]

I just remembered. There was also an adventure/sim hybrid called The Sting put out by JoWood a few years ago. In it, you play a cat burglar who must engineer a series of increasingly difficult heists.

[VoodooFX]

I think in 'I have no mouth... but i must scream' playable characters weren't exactly saints, could be wrong though... never played it much

[BacardiJim]

Good game, and you're right that some of the characters are definitely "bad guys." One is a Mengele-type Nazi concentration camp doctor. Another is an embittered truck driver who has to "work out" certain feelings of malice toward his ex-wife and his former mother-in-law.


Of course, in IHNMAIMS, the idea is that even though these people are "evil," the whole point of the game is to make them overcome their personality disorders and become "good" people.

[Captain Blondebeard]

I believe some fans are making a Kings Quest version where you assume the role of the villain.

[stepurhan]

Well, there are some games that you can play as the "bad" (whatever that means) guy, the list below contains games from all genres, not only adventure games:

1. Aliens vs. Predator series (you can play as the Alien or the Predator, which are considered "bad")
2. Warcraft series (play as the Orcs, Undead, etc.)
3. Lord of the Rings - War of the Ring (play as the bad guys, forgot how they're called here)
4. Star Wars - Galactic Battlegrounds (play as the Trade Federation, Darth Vader's forces, Dark Jedis, etc.)
5. Blitzkrieg (you can play as the Germans)
6. Command & Conquer series (play as NOD forces, Iraqis, Chinese, etc.)
7. Red Alert series (play as the Soviets, Yuri's forces)
8. Dune series (mainly Dune 2000 and Emperor - Battle for Dune) (play as Harkonnen or Ordos houses)
9. Mafia (play as a mafioso) (best game of all time IMHO)
10. Grand Theft Auto series (play as an underworld thug)
11. Hitman series (play as a hitman)
12. Manhunt (play as a brutal "escaped" convict)
13. Gangland (play as a family of mafiosos)
14. Postal series (play as a psychotic guy, sorry, don't have a better description)
15. Enclave (play as the Dark or Light sides)
16. Starcraft (play as the Zerg)
17. Battlefield 1942 (play as the Axis nations)
18. Carmageddon series (play as a psychotic driver)
19. NOLF 2 - Contract J.A.C.K. (play as a hitman)
20. Black & White (play as either a good or evil god)
21. The Dark Eye (play as a novelish murderer)
22. Axis & Allies (again, play as the Axis nations)
23. Legacy of Kain series (play as Kain)

After all's said and done, there aren't many games out there that let you play as the "bad" guy. However, some games have gone beyond the good & evil aspect and have created more complex experiences.
If you'll check my original post I said that it was specifically adventure games where the chance to play the bad guy was missing. Looking through your list I can only see one game (The Dark Eye) that I'd call adventure.

Maybe the best way forward is to have more complex adventure games where the "morality" of the character's actions and ultimate goals are a lot more ambiguous. At the end of the day I don't really want to play an evil sadist. I'm just tired of being the (even somewhat reluctant) hero that has to save the day.
And what about Legend of Kyrandia 3 - Malcolm's Revenge?
Would that be at all related to
The only exception I know of is Legend of Kyrandia 3 - Malcolm's Revenge. from my starting post? :confused: :P

[BacardiJim]

Looking through your list I can only see one game (The Dark Eye) that I'd call adventure.
Maybe you missed my post earlier, but Midnight Nowhere is most definitely an adventure game and you most definitely play an immoral, unlikable bad guy. Despite the naysaying when I mentioned it earlier, I enjoyed the game quite a bit... more so than Black Mirror. Of course, there was a part of me that felt GUILTY for enjoying it, as the game is misogynistic in the extreme and the "hero" is a pretty nasty piece of work.

[AFGNCAAP]

You won't be the villain per se in this game, but anybody who wants to commit some evil deeds and feel really nasty for doing them - and just as much for not doing them! :devil: - should check out a short, nonlinear piece of Interactive Fiction called Slouching towards Bedlam.

[Dark Veil]

Staying on topic, and in the correct forum as well for a change :)
What about the adventure game 'Guilty; Innocent untill caught 2'
Any of you guys remember that one?
Wasn't half bad in my humble opinion...

[RLacey]

Didn't Big Red Adventure have you playing criminals?

[vansau]

I wonder, is The Clue! not one of these games?

And what about Legend of Kyrandia 3 - Malcolm's Revenge?

Was gonna mention that. I need to find a copy of the original Kyrandia so that I can play that on my laptop.

[AFGNCAAP]

Didn't Big Red Adventure have you playing criminals?
Yeah, and Nippon Safes! It was the previous game of the company which made BRA (nice abbreviation...). I keep a special place in my heart for Nippon Safes, though I never played it beyond prologue (in which you actually had to get your characters arrested!) as it was the first AG I've ever seen (on a friend's Amiga...). Ah, memories...

[GraceNakimura]

Simon in Simon the Sorcerer isn't that good, is he? He isn't a villain per se, but he's rude and utterly selfish - and funny of course :devil:

And in Blade Runner you could choose which side you wanted to be on (i.e. kill all replicants or try to befriend them).

[TM3]

And why need it be good or evil at all? I want the characters to be a little more complex than just being good or evil.
And those tend to make good stories with characters that go beyond good and evil. Characters that are human.

[Zanthia]

Ok, not good or evil- negativ. In most of the stories you are positiv hero, saving rhe world. Why not to destroy the world for once? :) Game, in wheach you play negativ hero, would be nice. And not, Malcolm isn't evil, he appears innocent in the end. And more 'naughty' characters, like Malcolm and Simon.

[stepurhan]

Maybe you missed my post earlier, but Midnight Nowhere is most definitely an adventure game and you most definitely play an immoral, unlikable bad guy. Despite the naysaying when I mentioned it earlier, I enjoyed the game quite a bit... more so than Black Mirror. Of course, there was a part of me that felt GUILTY for enjoying it, as the game is misogynistic in the extreme and the "hero" is a pretty nasty piece of work.
Saw your post about Midnight Nowhere but I was just referring to ClarkGable's list at the time. Seems there are more adventures with w darker bent than I thought.

[ragnar]

I just remembered. There was also an adventure/sim hybrid called The Sting put out by JoWood a few years ago. In it, you play a cat burglar who must engineer a series of increasingly difficult heists.
Indeed, got quite boring after a while, but anyway a good concept. On the other hand it was more or less a remake of a really old game called "clou".

[Jake]

This question has been bothering me for a while. No one considers themselves 'evil', everything thinks what they're doing is good or necessary.

reminds me of...

When your name is Evil that is good, Or so you think, But you're so very wrong: It's evil

But being wrong is right, So then you're good again... Which is the evilest thing of all

[vansau]

And those tend to make good stories with characters that go beyond good and evil. Characters that are human.
True, but there is the appeal of just getting to be what society labels as a "deviant". Why do you think the GTA series sell so well? We get to do all the stuff we wouldn't be allowed to in real life.