Looking for people for a long hobby project

[Erkki]

Is there anyone who would like to join a hobby game developement project that might take a few years to complete and would be worked on in a relatively slow pace (depends on circumstances), on spare time.

Firstly needed are writers and designers. Currently there's only me and a vision that has developed mostly in my head for more than two years and a partial design document. I was working on a prototype till school started but I've realized that this will lead me nowhere -- I can't do it alone.

As this project could span a few years, and people tend to get bored with things, it is acceptable to join the project only for a limited time (for example the initial design phase).

When I first thought about it I had a story in mind for the game, but it was based on a book and using it in a game would probably violate the author's rights. I need writers to come up with a new story / setting. The setting was originally going to be post-apocalyptic but it doesn't need to be if still supports the various gameplay elements.

About the gameplay:

The main idea for how the game would play was to take the best elements of many different genres and mix it all together in a way that allows many different play styles. From this follows the current working title "Melting Pot". There would be

Adventure game style puzzles and dialogues
RPG -- quests and character developement
Real-time strategy -- different factions fighting each other
Tactical combat -- some quests & missions would involve this
Vehicle sim -- freedom to travel the world by any vehicle (but vehicles would be less present than in GTA)
Empire building -- build your factions base. Technology trees.
Sims -- make friends and enemies
Career & dynasty building -- start as a hobo, end up as a leader of a faction. Get married and continue to play as your offspring when you die.
Mad Max -- build your own crazy postapocalyptic vehicles
...ETC...

How would all those different genres work together? I don't know certainly yet, but don't think of those things listed above as different genres forced into one game. This game would not be defined by any current genres. I list them only for comparision. The game would combine all those things naturally.
Imagine that you are playing an RPG, but instead of travelling by foot all the time, you have the option of riding a horse, a boat, driving a car, or flying a helicopter. And you can control those vehicles yourself as in any vehicle sim game. Or you can just click on your destination on the world map and watch your progress there (accelerated time). If something happens on the way, your progress on the map stops and you are thrown back to the main view.
Be a lone wolf doing odd jobs or become a member of a faction and start commanding others as your rank rises. Start managing your factions base (this is where the empire building / RTS part kicks in), defend it against other factions. Or just find a lonely house in a distant place by a lake and rise your family there. Grow crops and farm animals. Once in a while, drive to the nearest factions headquarters, wait for the cover of night and loot their base for any supplies you need.

One thing I'd also like to see in this game is references to classic literature (instead of ref. to pop culture as seen in many games). For example there could be some NPCs (or even PCs) based on Don Quijote and Sancho Panza.

Is anyone intersted?

[remixor]

I might be interested in writing, but I think perhaps this game might be a BIT too ambitious... It sounds like you've got some great ideas, but I honestly just can't see a project of this magnitude being completed entirely as a hobby.

[Erwin_Br]

I might be interested in writing, but I think perhaps this game might be a BIT too ambitious... It sounds like you've got some great ideas, but I honestly just can't see a project of this magnitude being completed entirely as a hobby.

I think he really thought about this game, which increases the possibility of the game actually being realised. Too many amateur-developer-wannabees ask for help while the only thing they have thought about are two lines of storyline.

--Erwin

[Erkki]

I might be interested in writing, but I think perhaps this game might be a BIT too ambitious... It sounds like you've got some great ideas, but I honestly just can't see a project of this magnitude being completed entirely as a hobby.

It depends on how much into details the project would go. Some of the things I listed above would probably be left out(I think I shouldn't have posted all that).
In the design process we would need to decide what exactly should make it into the game and what should not. It would of course probably change later during developement, but I think it is important to identify at first the core features that define the game.

One thing I certainly want to have is good NPC AI that will allow for complex interactions with NPC's other than combat. And I plan to revolutionize how dialogues work in games :)

Oh. And the graphics should be 2D top down, if that requires the least work. I think it does, but I'm not experienced in 3D programming so I don't really know how much more work will it require.

[Garyos]

Sounds kinda interesting.... The big question for me is: are you a programmer? DO you know programmers who would work with you on this? It's no fun writing complex stories if they never leave the paper....

[Erkki]

Sounds kinda interesting.... The big question for me is: are you a programmer? DO you know programmers who would work with you on this? It's no fun writing complex stories if they never leave the paper....

I am a programmer, but not experienced in creating complex games (have done some simple games over the years, but not good enough to be released). Don't have any other programmers with me at the moment but I think it will be easier to find them when more of the story & design are completed.

I hope to find another lead programmer once more of the design is done, but I'm also currently learning various aspects about game programming myself. However, my understanding of 3D (and math skills) will never be good enough to make a complex 3D engine. Currently I'm working on a simple 2D engine structure and will create a (couple of) simple game(s) (maybe Tetris) by the end of this year.

[James]

Tips: Use a licensed engine, a cheapo 3d. quake 2 is available for free, or the tribes engine is available for a nominal fee. get a core team and build from there. write a design document as soon as possible. get a website, or some place to communicate. start small. keep to your objectives, and keep to a time table [foreverdream staff: rofl], where possible.

[Erkki]

Tips: Use a licensed engine, a cheapo 3d. quake 2 is available for free, or the tribes engine is available for a nominal fee. get a core team and build from there. write a design document as soon as possible. get a website, or some place to communicate. start small. keep to your objectives, and keep to a time table [foreverdream staff: rofl], where possible.

Thanx for the advice, but there's one problem with starting like that:

I don't have any requirements for the engine yet. If I start by choosing an engine, I may have already taken the wrong path since the engine might begin driving the design process. The process must be design driven, not technology driven, although technology is very important as well.
Of course there are engines out there that are general enough to be used for almost any kind of game, but again they have differences and I don't have any requirements yet (the requirements should come from the design).

Of course I could finish the design by myself before choosing an engine, but as the game is a "melting pot", taking ideas from here and there etc. -- if I do all of that myself it might end up something that only I would like. I think I *need* to have other people involved in the initial design phase.

[Henke]

Sounds really intresting. I'm a 3D artist and a writer (I have done some programming too but I really suck at it). I would really like to help but right now the game I'm currently developing takes all my time.

[Marek]

Your idea sounds very "cool" and you have a lot of enthusiasm. However, I think you need to have a more realistic view on game development. Most of the time only 5% of the effort is the initial idea, and the other 95% is making sure it actually works. Your idea might sound like a revolutionary design on paper, but trust me--it's not going to work. You need to seriously narrow down the scope of your project. It's extremely hard to balance out the different gameplay styles of different genres, let alone make them compatible.

Instead, why not focus on merging two genres? Like RPG and strategy? Or adventure and driving? (I'd personally kill to see a game like that. Think GTA3 without the shooting and with puzzles and interactive dialogs.) That way you can really go deep into the design instead of staying on the surface. Think hard about what's so appealing about different genres, and which ones would work well together.

Right now your idea sounds more like a dreamy picture. Why not make it more tangible?

If you have a good, realistic design for your game, the first thing you need to do is make a prototype. Get a programmer to code your gameplay mechanics. Use temporary sprites if you have to. If at this level the game is already enjoyable you might be onto something, and more people will put more time into your game.

Good luck :)

[remixor]

I completely agree with Marek. That's pretty much what I was trying to say in my post, but I was hesitant to go into as much detail, because, hey, what do I know? :) Marek, on the other hand, has real experience and education in game design. It would probably be wise to heed his warnings. :)

[Erkki]

... You need to seriously narrow down the scope of your project.
...
If you have a good, realistic design for your game, the first thing you need to do is make a prototype. Get a programmer to code your gameplay mechanics. Use temporary sprites if you have to. If at this level the game is already enjoyable you might be onto something, and more people will put more time into your game.

Well, you're right, and actually that was exactly what I was doing so far.
I had narrowed it down to the following and started working on a prototype:

- a small world with one starting place and two different factions to join
- only driving (even limited to one car) / adventure / and some core RPG elements

Then I realized it will probably take me a year or more to get even there when working alone. I was programming it myself and currently have got only this far that the engine/editor prototype can draw roads (2D vector graphics using OpenGL). That took me about one month (working almost every day, occasionally even 16 hours a day), counting from when I first started to learn about game engine structures, OpenGL, relearning C++ etc. Hmm... maybe that's not so bad because that was probably the least fun part of it.

[Erwin_Br]

Well, you're right, and actually that was exactly what I was doing so far.
I had narrowed it down to the following and started working on a prototype:

- a small world with one starting place and two different factions to join
- only driving (even limited to one car) / adventure / and some core RPG elements

Then I realized it will probably take me a year or more to get even there when working alone. I was programming it myself and currently have got only this far that the engine/editor prototype can draw roads (2D vector graphics using OpenGL). That took me about one month (working almost every day, occasionally even 16 hours a day), counting from when I first started to learn about game engine structures, OpenGL, relearning C++ etc. Hmm... maybe that's not so bad because that was probably the least fun part of it.

Once you're familiar with the engine and the programming things will speed up. Things will also start getting repetitive because you're not learning much new stuff as in the beginning, but that's another story.

--Erwin

[Marek]

That's definitely not a wasted month. You've learned a lot of things that will either help complete the game yourself, or will help you communicate effectively with your programmers.

[Erkki]

Thanx for your comments everyone.

What I think I will do now is

* continue to work with the prototype;
* stop developing my own stupid engine and look into various open source technologies to use -- game engine programming just isn't for me;
* move to 3D instead of my current 2D / 3D hybrid;
* maybe find another programmer to help me;

And when/if I get the prototype to a level I'm comfortable with, release it to get some feedback and then get a bigger team to go on from there.

[Erwin_Br]

http://www.2dadventure.com/ags/tooltip.gif

[twifkak]

I kept trying to click Next Tip. ;)

[Moosferatu]

I kept trying to click Next Tip. ;)
Funny, my first reaction was to try to click 'close'. :P

[Erkki]

I was wondering, can anyone give me ideas for the setting and story for that game? Just a few sentences would be enough. Currently I'm totally unable to come up with anything myself.

Some limits:
1. It should have cars (or some other kind of ground transports)
2. It should have people (or some other intelligent beings -- there must be dialogues)
3. I forgot to mention is that the games concept would be very much about survival because the ideas first came to me from a post-apocalyptic book; and originally it was not only about the survival of the main character but the entire human race. But the story must be changed and I doesn't need to be post-apocalyptic.

[Kode]

Speaking of survival you could set it in the depression time USA of the early 1930s. Of course, if you're thinking of a time when you can use cool, modern looking cars, then that wouldn't work... ;)

[remixor]

Kode: that would be awesome, especially with the cars of that era. However, I can imagine the architecture and technology a lot harder to model in 3d than the current more streamlined style.

[twifkak]

Yeah, I really like the old-school cars.. I always get pissed when they show that car commercial (forget who.. Mercedes?) where the guy looks out the subway and sees an old 40's car getting passed by a 2004. The old one looks so much purtier...

edit: I didn't realize how worthless that post was until I hit submit.

[remixor]

Twif: your edit made me laugh out loud.


Yeah, I agree that old cars can often (not ALWAYS) have a lot more character than modern cars. I think this is in part a psychological effect; since we are so used to seeing modern-era cars on a daily basis, they do not really inspire our imagination. However, when you see a vintage '39 Buick, your mind immediately conjures up images of the 30s and 40s, and imagines a world in which that car would seem right at home.

[Erkki]

Not a bad idea, but (forgot to mention some other things):

1. I don't have enough time for research to be historically accurate so something fictional would work best.

2. The setting should have a low population because I want to model the NPC's behaviour in much detail. Yet there should be enough people so that the game world would seem alive. I think the world in Outcast is the closest to what I want to achieve, but with more detailed roles and behaviour for the NPCs (and probably with a bit smaller number of NPCs).

Also, this idea (1930's and their cars) has recently been done in Mafia (although it's a different type of game).

[Tom_K]

Twif: your edit made me laugh out loud.


Yeah, I agree that old cars can often (not ALWAYS) have a lot more character than modern cars. I think this is in part a psychological effect; since we are so used to seeing modern-era cars on a daily basis, they do not really inspire our imagination. However, when you see a vintage '39 Buick, your mind immediately conjures up images of the 30s and 40s, and imagines a world in which that car would seem right at home.
How true. I love certain older car styles. Not too sure how to feel about Chrysler's fusion of old lines on new metal, but I like some of the concept cars. I have the 3D studio max 5 bible, and some of the glossy inserts are of older cars: beautiful!

[Erwin_Br]

Today every car is made by a machine, while classic cars were made by men (or partly by men, later on.)

Classic cars also have a lot more detail (little shiny chrome parts, and such), while todays designs are as flat and smooth as possible.

I guess that's where the 'character' comes from.

--Erwin

[remixor]

Today every car is made by a machine, while classic cars were made by men (or partly by men, later on.)

Classic cars also have a lot more detail (little shiny chrome parts, and such), while todays designs are as flat and smooth as possible.

I guess that's where the 'character' comes from.

--Erwin

To be fair, I don't think that whether a car is built by a machine or a man really affects its character. They're still designed by men no matter what, and I honestly can't believe that it's possible to visually differentiate who or what actually constructed it.

And that era of design did include more flashy bits, but design is a cyclical thing. I mean, look at automotive design of the 80s and early 90s :r I'd say we're a lot better off in that department now. We're just living in an era where design is very aerodynamic and streamlined. This sort of thing will continue to change, though. I think that automotive design of the first half of the century is a lot better from our observer's perspective, too. It's fairly ostentatious and not very practical. Since we're just looking from a different point in history, though, it's gorgeous :9~

[Garyos]

You could set it ten thousand years in the future, when a nomad alien race discovers earth. Most of the human race is extinct, but all their buildings (and cars;)) are still there. The aliens are low on their own supplies, and low on manpower, so they need to quickly adapt to using human tools and resources. They also need to make peace with(or kill) the last remaining humans, who are naturally vary of the newcomers. Technology on earth hasn't evolved much since our time, since msot of our technology prior to this point was used to construct different weapons and war thingees.... The aliens are an adaptable race (RPG elements?) so they quickly catch up on human philosophy by reading old newspapers/books etc. Factions are made, some teaming up with the humans, some wanting to leave, etc., etc. Your character must choose wisely so that he can eventually... rule earth any way he sees fit!


Okay, I made that up as I went along. Good enough?


(Could I be a writer? :D )

[Royal Fool]

Garyos: That's actually a great concept for a storyline and design... :o

I mean it! :)

[Kode]

(Could I be a writer? :D )

Elaborate and you're well on your way to being a sci-fi writer :P

[Garyos]

Thanks! I seriously just made that up on the spot. I love making stories fit a certain set of strict guidelines (as long as the guidelines aren't lame, of course). I made this pretty good time travel script for school where we have no budget, three "actors" and one building to film it in.

[twifkak]

To be fair, I don't think that whether a car is built by a machine or a man really affects its character. They're still designed by men no matter what, and I honestly can't believe that it's possible to visually differentiate who or what actually constructed it.
Actually, they're not really designed by men. After the basic design is done, they feed it through a bunch of computers and JPLs and stuff, so it may just be the fact that cars are more aerodynamic that makes them ugler (as you said "ostentatious, not very practical"). :P Then again, the Honda Element...

[Erkki]

Thanx Garyos, that is indeed very good for something you just made up on the spot.
I'll probably use that.

[Garyos]

Thanx Garyos, that is indeed very good for something you just made up on the spot.
I'll probably use that.

Can I be the writer then? I (oddly enough) like the idea and would love to make something more out of it....

[LiK]

i'll be happy to contribute 2d character designs and other concept art. message me about it. :)

[Garyos]

Great! I'm Erkkis writer now, and I'd love to see some of my ideas conseptualised.... But as of yet I'm not sure if Errki even LIKES what I've written, since he hasn't checked his email... :(

[Erkki]

i'll be happy to contribute 2d character designs and other concept art. message me about it. :)

Thanx, but I don't think we need artists at the moment. But I'll let you know when we get that far.

Garyos, yeah, for a computer science student I don't check my email very often. :) But I liked most of it as I told you in email.

[LiK]

Thanx, but I don't think we need artists at the moment. But I'll let you know when we get that far.


okay, cool, just letting you know i'm interested