Agon

[remixor]

So what do you guys think of AGON (http://www.adventuregamers.com/display.php?id=289)? Anyone tried it out? The serialized approach is interesting; I think I'm going to download the first episode. For only $10, why not? Sure, it's $140 by the time you've gotten all the episodes, but for being spread over two years, that's not bad at all. It's definitely something new to the gaming world.

[Kode]

wow! That's a lot of bucksees for a single game. My belief is that a game should give you as many hours of satisfactory gameplay or afterthought as the number of US$ you spend on it. Can this game give me over 140 hours of gameplay? ;)

The review says 4 hours each...

*sigh*

But given it's a good review, I'm sure it's worth a look into.

*waddles off to the website to read about it*

[remixor]

You don't buy many adventure games, then, do you? :P How many $50 adventure games give a solid 50 hours of playtime? Not many. That being said, AGON certainly has a higher dollar:hours ratio than most adventure games, but if each episode is 4 hours long, we'll end up with 56 hours of gameplay by the end. That's $2.50 per hour. Honestly, that's not much more than what you get for most new adventure games at $50 or so. It's definitely still not a great value, but bear in mind you're not ever paying $140 at once. $140 over the course of two years does NOT feel like $140 to your pocket book. That's like 6 bucks a month--hardly even noticeable.

[Kode]

Well, I am only recently into the world of adventure games, so, no, I haven't bought many :P

The only ones I've ever bought are IJ and Fate of Atlantis (FoA), MI1, MI2, MI3 and MI4, Full Throttle...

All these games, I can honestly say have given me 2x the hours as the number of dollars I spent on them. And I guess this was possible because I bought all these games pretty recently, when they were cheap, and not when they were released. (I have yet to play MI4, doesn't work on my hunk of computerous mass.)

Other than that - none. :o

But, you have a point, given the non-replayable nature of adventure games, perhaps the rule shouldn't apply. I've generally applied this rule to FPSs and RTSs and I've stuck by it for the past couple of years. Maybe it's time to break the boundaries :D

btw, The music samples for this game are mindboggling! :o

[neovsmatrix]

The catch is, will they even be able to finish the story? If it's determined not to be commercially viable, the company could just abandon the project in the middle and the story would go unfinished. IMHO, this is the biggest flaw about serialized games. And that's one reason I wouldn't play it unless the last episode was released.

by the way, I've played adventure games over and over again FAR more times than I would even consider playing an FPS game or any other game. Replaying adventure games is like reading a good book all over again, IMHO.

[Kode]

by the way, I've played adventure games over and over again FAR more times than I would even consider playing an FPS game or any other game. Replaying adventure games is like reading a good book all over again, IMHO.

I find that rereading a book, no matter how good, is a boring affair in and of itself. Usually a book's story entertains me. The story, to me, cannot be retold in the same fashion ever again, after the first reading. But I do read books again (if they're really good) given a couple of months' gap. It's similar with games. The story entertains me. And the story cannot ever entertain me the same way after I've finished it once. When it comes to something like an FPS or RTS, there's multiplayer that provides replayability.

Anyway, you have a good point regarding the dedication of the team. It is risky to put full trust in them and then not get your money's worth of an ending. However, if that were to happen, you could always finish it yourself - in your head :D

[remixor]

krkode - A book (or a movie, or a game, or a work of music) does not have to be all about the story, though. If this were truly the case, our generally accepted ideas of who we consider "great authors" to be would be radically different. The way a story is teld can be much more important than the story itself, which is why Shakespeare, for example, is still so widely read today. He certainly didn't make up most of those stories; most of them were traditional stories that had been passed down for generations. Now, whether you DO like Shakespeare or not, it's pretty hard to deny that his style of storytelling is one that has captured and inspired millions of people over centuries. A truly great game, likewise, should have reply value not based on the story (or at least not entirely based on the story), but based on the way that story is told. The reason I keep playing Grim Fandango is not because the story is particularly original--it pretty much takes from a bunch of well-known film noir stories, as well as movies like Casablanca--but the style in which it was told and the overall feel of the game is incredibly unique and moving. That's just an example in the gaming world; there are many others.

[Kode]

If this were truly the case, our generally accepted ideas of who we consider "great authors" to be would be radically different.

Who y'all consider great authors... ;) I agree with all that you have said, and I agree with many of the views regarding the greatest authors of all time, and while I consider how a story is told to be a very important factor in a book/movie/game, that aspect - how the story is told is also covered in attempt #1. :sad: For that matter, the story and the way it is told, to me, atleast, get a little repeitious - sprouting boredom. I can list all the books that I have read more than once, easily, because it is a short list, and I trust you (if not you, the general opinion) will agree that they are indeed great stories that are well told: Count of Monte Cristo, Moby Dick, Picture of Dorian Gray, The Lord of the Rings, and finally, Great Expectations. All classic, if you ask me - in a league of their own :P

[remixor]

Well, I've read all the books you brougt up, and the first two stories you mentioned, at least, are really not that complex: a guy gets injustly imprisoned and takes revenge, a captain really wants to kill this one whale. The next hardly even HAS a story: a guy gets his soul put into a picture (that's about it--the entire book hardly has any plot, it's essentially all about Dorian the character himself). The story of LOTR is pretty basic as well--it's the context the story is put in that provides the excitement. Great Expectations is perhaps the exception to the books you listed--it was originally published in serialized form (how coincidental, given this thread ;) ), so the whole point was to have a rapidly evolving story that would keep readers' interest from months to month.

It's very possible I could have just misunderstood what you meant in the first place, though; if so, feel free to ignore me ;)

[Kode]

I doubt you have misunderstood, Remixor. Perhaps it is I who was unclear in expressing my opinion.

As you have shown, the stories of my favorite books are indeed simple. But it is how they were told that makes them my favorite. They're either good vs evil, revenge, or hunt for something, relatively clichéd plots, even for their time, I would think. But they were wonderfully told, and that's why I reread them.

Yes, I too value how a story unfolds, and perhaps that explains why I am never bored of Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis. But, you must admit, not every game has what that game has ;) (I haven't played Grim Fandango) :o

[remixor]

Yeah, I see what you mean now. It's essentially what I was saying as well.

And of course not every game is able to achieve that. That's why we have bad games, good games, and great games. PLAY GRIM FANDANGO.

[twifkak]

The catch is, will they even be able to finish the story? If it's determined not to be commercially viable, the company could just abandon the project in the middle and the story would go unfinished. IMHO, this is the biggest flaw about serialized games. And that's one reason I wouldn't play it unless the last episode was released.
This is the same business method that other episodic media use, such as magazine stories (err.. what are these called?) and TV shows. Some TV shows are even pay-for -- HBO's, for example. So once the ball is rolling, this won't be a problem.

[Tom_K]

So what do you guys think of AGON (http://www.adventuregamers.com/display.php?id=289)? Anyone tried it out? The serialized approach is interesting; I think I'm going to download the first episode. For only $10, why not? Sure, it's $140 by the time you've gotten all the episodes, but for being spread over two years, that's not bad at all. It's definitely something new to the gaming world.
I'm going to d/l the first episode as well. Let me know what you think of it remixor.

[Hiro Protagonist]

I was with you guys in the beginning. If I hadn't gotten a review copy I don't know if I would have played it. I don't want to be in the middle of a story - no matter how great it is - and then have no closure due to financial issues on the part of the company. But hopefully enough people will jump on board to make this financially viable.

[Tom_K]

According to their FAQ (http://www.agongame.com/?page=faq&PHPSESSID=94c10d69260e0fbc36c3cc6e44a1b17e), it is a possibility that lack of interest and/or funding would cause early termination of the project, but it sounds like they would still try to dedicate some effort to bringing closure to the project:

If there is very small interest in AGON, this undesired situation may occur. In that case all of us will be deprived of an exquisite adventure but developers will be deprived in another way as well... Private Moon Studios will attempt to „play its part” even for a very small audience. It will offer real fans the opportunity of providing further small donations supporting continuous work. But it also hopes that as a result of the success it will soon be planning the sequel.

[twifkak]

I'd be interested to hear second opinions from whoever plays Episode 1.

[remixor]

Well, I played for a while, then I idiotically quit without saving. I've never managed to do that before, so I don't know what happened this time :rolleyes: In any case, I'm enjoying it so far for the most part. Years of LEC- and Sierra-style adventures have built up in my a pretty strong resilience to node-based games (this is in fact the first one besides Myst I've managed played for more than a few moments). It's not astounding, but I really like that you pick up clues that you have to write down yourself. That's something I've missed from a lot of recent adventures. It feels good to have a sheet of paper covered with my otherwise illegible scribbles at my side while playing the game. Anyway, I think I'm pretty close to the end of this episode, but I'll have to start over and redo all the stuff I've done due to my dumb mistake. I'll post again once I'm done.


EDIT: Bwhahaha, check out JA+'s first line of their AGON preview:

"Adventure game developer Private Moon Studios is to release Agon, the first adventure game series ever."

Did you hear that, guys?! It's the first adventure game series EVER!!!!!1111

[Kode]

Did you hear that, guys?! It's the first adventure game series EVER!!!!!1111

LOLOLOLOLOL *D

I'm interested to see if the episodes end relatively satisfactorily or if they leave you hanging, waiting for the next part...please enlighten as to this once you're done, Remixor :)

[Magskvalp]

Is it true that you get a copy protection code that's only good for one single installation of the game when you buy it? I've read that that's the case on another forum. Incredibly stupid if it's true. One hard drive crash and you'll have to buy the game all over again, not to mention if you, after uninstalling it, would like to replay it in the future. Money (140 dollars worth of it) go bye bye...

[remixor]

LOLOLOLOLOL *D

I'm interested to see if the episodes end relatively satisfactorily or if they leave you hanging, waiting for the next part...please enlighten as to this once you're done, Remixor :)

Well, from what I can tell, each episode continues the previous one but is also able to be played as a self-contained game. As such I'd imagine that the endings don't leave you hanging TOO much (although one would hope for at least some suspense as incentive to play the next one).


magskvalp: I'm not sure. You do get a code, but I don't know if it's only good for one install. I'll check their website.

EDIT: Ok, this is how I THINK it works (don't quote me): Each code is only good for one install of the game, but since your billing information is on file you should be able to re-download the game if need be, which should get you a new code.

EDIT AGAIN: Ok, this time it's official. I checked their FAQ. Each code is only good for one install of the game, but if you need to reinstall or install on a new computer or something, you just email support@agongame.com and they'll get you a new one.

LAST EDIT, SERIOUSLY: Ok, so everything in EDIT AGAIN stands, but also apparently if you're reinstalling on the SAME COMPUTER as your original code (or at least the last one you were assigned), you don't need a new code.

[Magskvalp]

Thanks for the info.

Still think it's stupid (the copy protection method that is, not the info...).

It means I would have to ask the developers (if they are still around when the time comes) for a new code after a hard drive crash, a reinstallation of Windows or when I want to play the game on a new computer, only to mention a few of the situations I can think of now. And that for a game I've paid 140 bucks for! Please...

[remixor]

Well, yeah, but if you think the copyright protection is that stupid, chances are you're not going to stick around for all 14 episodes. I really don't blame them. This is a very small developer with a lot to prove and a lot to lose, and if I were them I wouldn't want people letting their friends use their codes and so forth. They'll need all the subscribers they can get to stay alive. And, be honest, these episodes are fairly short. I can't imagine you needing to reformat so often that you can't finish an episode straight through.

[Tom_K]

Thanks for the info.

Still think it's stupid (the copy protection method that is, not the info...).

It means I would have to ask the developers (if they are still around when the time comes) for a new code after a hard drive crash, a reinstallation of Windows or when I want to play the game on a new computer, only to mention a few of the situations I can think of now. And that for a game I've paid 140 bucks for! Please...
If you're reformating your hard-drive, why not simply archive the install file on CD-Rom? That's the first thing I did. I haven't played Agon yet, but when I do, I'll post some thoughts about it here.

[Magskvalp]

Well, as I understand it, the code you get only works on the computer you decide to use the first time you play the game. If you for some reason have to replace your hard drive or reformat the one you have the game will no longer recognise that computer as the one it has once been activated on. To have the game with the install file on CD wouldn't help in this situation. You would have to ask for a new code before you could reinstall the game.

Anyway, the far most annoying thing for me is the fact that you cannot play a game you have legally bought (for 130 or 140 bucks) on another computer in the future without asking for a replacement code from a company that may or may not still be there to provide that code when the time comes, say two, five or even ten years from now. And according to a post at another adventure game forum from one of the developers of AGON there are only TWO extra codes for each "copy" of the game. Meaning the game is totally useless once all three codes are used.

I understand the developer's concerns regarding piracy, but when they start using copy protection methods that seriously limits the possibilities to use the software in a way any customer should be able to, I cannot help but feeling a bit concerned.

[Kode]

I don't blame them for the copy protection thingy either. If it wasn't like that, a single purchase could be spread out to a dozen friends all of whom could download and install the game with relative ease. While it is an inefficient method of protection, it should be effective. We can only hope that they make it more efficient in the future. I, ofcourse, can't think of any better method, but that's not my job...

[Magskvalp]

Maybe they intend to release a "once and for all"-code when all episodes are released and the piracy problem should be of less concern for them. But I would like to know before I buy the game.

[remixor]

They do want to release them all on CD when it's done. But honestly, what do you expect them to do? Do you have a better idea for copyright protection? I mean, come on. Companies who put out enormous, 5-gig games on several physical CDs have enough problems with piracy. This company puts out episodes which are each less than 200mb and only exist as downloadable files. Give me a break. Why would they NOT have a stringent piracy protection scheme?

[Jackal]

Why would they NOT have a stringent piracy protection scheme?

Because this is a small, indie developer that is relying on the goodwill of the adventure community for its very existence? You can't use the same standards here as you would with a one-time, pro-published product. For AGON to have any chance to reach its conclusion two years down the road, it'll be the hard-core adventure gamers that make it happen. That's NOT likely the crowd that will be otherwise tempted to scoop illegal copies of the game.

Nah, they should sink or swim with the very people they're relying on. Gamers are trusting the dev's that this series will last. Dev's should trust those same gamers not to stab them in the back.

[remixor]

If the hardcore gamers getting this game are indeed hardcore, I can't imagine this is going to stop them. I never thought twice about the code until it was brought up in this thread, and now that it has, I STILL don't care. :rolleyes:

[Jackal]

Hey, I wouldn't care, either. 3 codes ought to be enough for anybody, but just on principle, it seems an odd decision. :eek:

[Tom_K]

I have one thing to say: play the game. It won't be an issue. This is a quality product, and a worthy and enjoyable investment. I rescend my earlier statement in this thread about copyright concerns by deleting it. Say what you will, but it's nitpicking to quibble over what turns out to be nominal copyright protection. Buy it, play it - you won't regret it. If you do, you've invested a measley 10.00 - and not 50.00.

[LauraMac]

I have one thing to say: play the game. It won't be an issue. This is a quality product, and a worthy and enjoyable investment....but it's nitpicking to quibble over what turns out to be nominal copyright protection. Buy it, play it - you won't regret it. If you do, you've invested a measley 10.00 - and not 50.00.

Agreed on all points. This is a well crafted effort. I respect the fact that instead of waiting 2 to 3 years for a game that starts out with decent production values and by release time it is dated and stale looking - these guys are feeding us their efforts fresh off the build. When the last episode and grand finale rolls out (which will be free as a gift to gamers) it will have kept pace with production and graphic standards. Nothing will be stagnant about these episodes. The sole constant will be the larger story line and I assume the quality craftsmanship. This game has an intriguing story and with the 2nd episode being available in 3 weeks great value. Starting with episode 2 - each chapter will have it's unique mystery/ challenges as well as a unique "ancient game" This can be played against your PC or upon completion of the chapter online. There is supplemental game related material available online at the AGON club and the opportunity to shape future episodes with feedback to the developers.

Also - we are talking about 9.80 cents worth of risk. Most people spend that on two value meals at McD's and don't even blink - heck a crap paper back book costs 8.00 these days. This isn't a major dollar investment here and I agree that the concern over their copy protection scheme seems a bit out of scale.

Bottom line thoughts are that for those who are uncertain, then wait for the 2nd episode roll out and player feedback. With 1 and 2 out - you should have a pretty good idea of the value of this series and whether it is something you would want to invest your time and money into.

For me - its a done deal. On November 1 or 2 - I know what I will be downloading.

[Magskvalp]

Say what you will, but it's nitpicking to quibble over what turns out to be nominal copyright protection.

When a copyright protection scheme means that you actually are renting the product rather than buying it I don't think it's "nitpicking" to "quibble" over it. I have no doubts of the game's qualities though.

-- edit after reading LauraMac's post--

The game's qualities is not the issue here.

I like to at least be able to replay my games whenever I may feel like it, just like I want to be able to read great books again. I know some people don't do this, but for us who do this IS quite an issue. It's like you would have to contact the publisher of a book in order to unlock it and read it a second time when you really shold only have to open it and start reading. And after opening it a few times the book is nothing but garbage because noone can open it anymore.

[remixor]

When a copyright protection scheme means that you actually are renting the product rather than buying it I don't think it's "nitpicking" to "quibble" over it. I have no doubts of the game's qualities though.

*sigh* You are not "renting" the product. Most people are quite simply not going to need more than three codes, and if you honestly have such extreme reservations about it yourself, just don't download the game. The company makes their policy clear, and it's hardly unfair. If you buy a brand new game, you open it and somebody bumps you on the way to the car, and the game drops and jars the CD, rendering it unplayable, well, you're screwed. It's hardly a comparable situation, but the bottom line is that the terms are laid out for you from the beginning and the company is hardly expected to compensate for every situation you could create for yourself.

Tom is right in saying it's a quality product, and LauraMac is right on as well. It was worth my 10 bucks, copyright scheme and all. I mean, I could LOSE 10 bucks and I wouldn't be happy about it, but I wouldn't cry about it either.

[Magskvalp]

Of course I will not download it!

And if this is the kind of forum where arguments are met with sighs I guess there's no point of hanging around this place at all.

[remixor]

Go check out, for example, the religion thread if you want evidence of this forum's argumentative nature.

I "met the argument with a sigh" because I don't think anything new is being presented. I'm going to stop posting about it at this point unless some new arguments are brought forth. As it stands, you don't like the policy and several of us don't mind it. That's about all there is. Feel free not to hang around if you don't want to, although you're certainly welcome.

[Tom_K]

*sigh*


:devil:

I'll just say one thing more - because this is, after all, getting a little recycled. Just in case Magskvalp's trepadition is based on thinking he/she cannot play an episode of AGON over again. This is not the case. The publishers are providing artwork as pdf files for those who want to archive their episodes on disc. Why would you even do that if it's going to be a coaster? It's highly unlikely as well that you will, in the midst of episode seven, want to go back and play episode two over again..two more times. That's the idea of serialization is to keep you busy with the current release - until the composit becomes a whole. At that time, upon completion of the game, the entire series is 'unlocked' as it were, making it replayable anytime you wish.

Magskvalp: if you choose to not download this game - that's fine, and no one will begrudge you that choice, as it's yours to make. Our forums are full of intelligent people full of ideas - some inane, some incredibly insightful, so there's room for all. I wouldn't recommend membership on any forum where everyone agrees with you; where's the challenge in that? ;)

[Magskvalp]

The publishers are providing artwork as pdf files for those who want to archive their episodes on disc. Why would you even do that if it's going to be a coaster?

That's a question I really would like to see them answer!

I've never said it isn't replayable. The problem is that in order to be able to replay it you have to use the same computer with the same operating system etc. I'm not sure you can even uninstall it and reinstall it on the same machine in order to replay it! Here's how one member of the developer team describes it on another forum:

"One POP Code can only be used on one computer at a time; once used a POP Code to activate a copy on one computer, you cannot use it again. However if you reinstall, the program will be asking for activation. Private Moon Studios maintains two more POP Codes for everyone for the event of a vis mayor, but it is not worth using these only for reasons of comfort. Maybe you’ll be forced to use this opportunity if you have to you reinstall your Windows or when you buy a new computer. What’s more, requesting a new code is not automatic; you need to write a letter to support@agongame.com and request one. It’s uncomfortable. I suggest you think in advance of which computer you want to collect the episodes for moths; you should also leave room for further files, which are approximately 200 MB each. (And it is better to store downloaded install files on CDs; the AGON Club offers CD covers for each episode.)"

I'm still surprised I seem to be the only one worrying about this new type of copy-protection.

But as you say, enough of this. It's not like it's the end of the world.

[DomStLeger]

I have to say I share your concerns Magskvalp. When I buy a game I like to be able to replay it whenever I like in the future. So it concerns me that a game that will cost me $140 (£93) could potentially not be replayable.

But all I would require is an undertaking that after the last episode we will be given a code to unlock all chapters of the game from CDs as and when we like and on any OS. Once the game is completely finished in 2 years I should think the risk of piracy is less important given the games nature?

[remixor]

I'm not sure you can even uninstall it and reinstall it on the same machine in order to replay it!

Well, I'm sure. It explicitly says you can do that on their website.

you need to write a letter to support@agongame.com and request one. It’s uncomfortable.

Uncomfortable? Well, perhaps you SHOULD download this game. It will help you confront and overcome your social phobias.


But as you say, enough of this. It's not like it's the end of the world.

Indeed. It's not even really that unpleasant.

[Kode]

I'm still surprised I seem to be the only one worrying about this new type of copy-protection.



So are we. :P

A really thick person might have a lot of trouble with this, but that's not the kind of audience this game is seeking. As was said before in this thread, they seem to be aiming at the hardcore Adventure Gamers. So don't worry about it. Don't be fickle with your computers and their harddrives and this won't ever be a problem. ;)

[Magskvalp]

Uncomfortable? Well, perhaps you SHOULD download this game. It will help you confront and overcome your social phobias.

Had you ever learned how to read properly you would have noticed that those were the AGON developer's words, not mine.

[twifkak]

Conceptually, I'm opposed to the sort of "rental" mentality that product activation encourages. However, this is a close-knit development team that talks with its customers (like Cerulean Studios, which also uses a form of product activation), and I highly doubt that they will leave us high and dry like I would expect of a company like Microsoft. I don't know for a fact, but I would expect that, should they go under, they'd release some sort of "permanent activation code" if one exists. If not, I'm sure it's pretty easy to crack. :P

[omni555]

I just purchased the game AGON boxed on CD from a local Target store. I opened the box (BRAND NEW, never before opened!), installed it, and was anxious to try it out, but when I clicked on the desktop icon to start the game, I was asked for a "CODE:" in a small "Registration" window.

OK, no problem there. I looked at the box, the jewel case, and through the 8 pages of the jerel case insert, but cannot find ANYTHING resembling a code!!!

Now, I am NOT asking anyone for a pirated code or anything of the sort, but maybe someone could direct me to WHERE to look in my package for such a thing!!!

...Maybe this is the first puzzle of the game??? If so, will someone PLEASE give me the SOLUTION for it!!!

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help me!!! :crazy::pan:

[Jackal]

Whoa, major thread resurrection. :crazy:

The install code should be printed on a sticker on the back of the manual. If it's not, I suggest you either exchange the game or write to Viva Media, the game's publisher, and see if they'll provide you with a functional code.

[Melanie68]

FYI - I also got AGON very recently at Target. My registration code was on a sticker on the back of the jewel case.