The importance of stories

[Dylan_Dog]

Some games have had such great stories that made me think about them even if I wasn't playing them, and in some cases distracted me from other important things I was supposed to be thinking about. Recently, I have installed GK3 (again) and this time I wasn't concerned about 3d concept or interface, but purely on story and puzzles. This got me so intrigued that I decided to follow up on the subject of Holy Grail and Rennes Le Chateau outside the game. After some research I was amazed at the level of detail that the game employed relating to the Rennes mystery. Right down to the Sanuiere's grave in the back cemetery of the Rennes church. This made me play the game more and more, and then I followed up on more research which was by this stage broadened - Freemasons, Templars, The Celts etc. It was incredible, and for the first time, a game that seemed so fictious was so intriguing and genuine, and even though I played it once already and completed it, this time around it seemed like entirely different game. It is incredible how the story and this integration of environment and puzzles with story makes the game so much better, more genuine.

[Kingzjester]

I too had a similar impression of the game second time around. Probably because I had read Umberto Eco's Fucault's Pendulum in the meantime. I don't think the accurate portrayal of Rennes Le Chateau meant much to me.

A random off-topic question: how the hell is Dylan Dog popular in Australia?

[The Poisoned Pawn]

While it's technically not a game (at least not yet), the story in the Tex Murphy radio shows was quite complex (though we still haven't seen the whole picture). I did tons of research for that, and found plenty of possible foreshadowing...

[Kode]

Don't know how closely this is related to the current topic, but I for one love games that are based on historical events or are made such that they closely relate with some. I like original games too, but there's something very intriguing about a game whose story has either really happened (I shouldn't know much about it, of course, otherwise it'd not be worth playing) or is based off of something that really happened.

I haven't played too many games like this, though.

Speaking of what Dylan felt when he played GK3, playing history-related games also instils a great amount of research craving and interest in me. For example, I became what some would call a "WWII buff" after playing Medal of Honor. ;) Be that a good thing or not :shifty:

[Dylan_Dog]

I've spoken to a few people and they all feel the same in regards to this relation between history and games. It all depends on how well the history is integrated into the game. For example, if a player feels like that they are actually there to learn about history and not be implemented into the storyline, then the game is close to being a dud.

how the hell is Dylan Dog popular in Australia?

Well jester, I am not 100% australian, I am originally from Europe and I grew up there reading Dylan Dog comics and Martin Mystere comics etc. Friends used to call me Dylan Dog, but that's another story......
As for popularity of Dylan Dog comics in Oz, well, no one's even heard of it down here. People are into Marvel and DC and no one has heard of anything else.

[Kode]

I've spoken to a few people and they all feel the same in regards to this relation between history and games. It all depends on how well the history is integrated into the game. For example, if a player feels like that they are actually there to learn about history and not be implemented into the storyline, then the game is close to being a dud.

I agree. You mustn't have to learn history through the game - you have to actually play in it... ;)

It's not really meant to be an educational game (not that you won't learn anything from it) but more like an exciting game. History isn't boring :D

[Kingzjester]

History isn't boring :DHistory is dead. Unalterable (as far as major decisions that took place go - not the written history). Boring.

Interesting thing about GK3 - first time I played through I thought that the 'decorative pillar' on top of the Rennes Le Chateau tower had to be relative to the game. I completely failed to notice it the second time through. I also completely missed the red herrings that bothered me before - in as so much, it was a new game.

Dylan_Dog: I can't fathom DC and Marvel comics. How about Alan Ford? That's another obscure Italian favorite of mine... Oddly enough, it only sounds good in Croatian translation...

[Kode]

History is dead. Unalterable (as far as major decisions that took place go - not the written history). Boring.

That's a narrow-minded way to look at it. :shifty:

Great things can be done with what we have. People seem to overlook what is already in our midst in their search for "newness" to the genre.

[Kingzjester]

That's a narrow-minded way to look at it. :shifty:

Great things can be done with what we have. People seem to overlook what is already in our midst in their search for "newness" to the genre.Enjoying history is a narrow-minded thing to do. :shifty:

[Kode]

Enjoying history is a narrow-minded thing to do. :shifty:

Disliking history is a narrow-minded thing to do. :shifty:

[remixor]

Enjoying history is a narrow-minded thing to do. :shifty:

I can only hope this is sarcastic.

[Dylan_Dog]

If we all learnt from our history, we'd have a better future.

Like I said before, the level of "boredom" in history rich games depends on how well these historic facts have been integrated into the story. It needs the right balance - too much history makes it boring, too little makes it obscure/vague.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Which goes back to the fact that the game's quality is ultimately contigent on how good its designer is.

Many strategy games have been successful in re-translating history, for example, bringing the battles and intrigue to life and offering the player a chance to 're-write' it. I haven't played the adventure game Versailles 1685, but it received a slightly fair review at Gamespot (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/adventure/versailles1685/review.html), while its sequel, Versailles II: Testimony of The King, got a grade of 'B' at JA+. The rub here, however, is that both games are didactic, and the player seeking a good adventure game may end up feeling lectured to instead. If anyone here has played either/both games, please share your experience.

I've played The Messenger, and that game had me feeling that I had signed up for a History of France 101 course. Although the little pocket PC gadget was fun to use, with its historical map and vital information on the Louvre Museum's past, I don't think its conceptual integration into the story and game was convincing.

However, GK3's Sidney laptop and the Le Serpent Rouge enigma was brilliant! I loved the quasi/pseudo-historical cocktail of GK3, I thought Jane Jensen did a marvelous job integrating fact and fiction, to the point where I unconsciously stopped making the distinctions. GK3 did an excellent job of peppering history into its world without leaving me feeling that I had to turn in a paper after finishing it.

[Kode]

I agree with you, Intrepid. Like I said earlier, I don't want to be told the History, I think I'd like it if it unfolded right before my eyes.

For that matter, I think a game where you're Thomas Jefferson and you have to get to Philadelphia on date X to sign the declaration of Independance, would be pretty boring. Games relating to more obscure events - events that haven't been touched upon a lot - would be more interesting. This way, the events happening in the immediate vicinity of the game are likely to be unknown to the player (and so they can be fictionalized too) but the grand scheme of things, such as the time period, and location can be realistic. For example, it could be about the adventures of one man during the American Revolution and that man doesn't even have to have been a real person in history or have anything to do with any major events ala the Declaration of Independance, or any major battle.

[remixor]

I thought Jane Jensen did a marvelous job integrating fact and fiction, to the point where I unconsciously stopped making the distinctions.

Well, that in itself is a bit of a double-edged sword I think.

[twifkak]

Because you all were waiting for my opinion:

History is boring. It has proven not to prevent repetition. However, it can have entertainment purposes -- the fun of entertainment is often the ability to bring a new "world" to life. Historical culture is not new, but it's New To Me!*

*an NBC advertising campaign that tried to get you to watch their reruns during the summer, claiming that there were several you hadn't yet seen

[James]

real world inspiration for plots and the like is a good choice, obviously within the context of certain boundaries. the broken sword series along with gabriel knight have shown the ability of good designers to take mythology and construct a good story around whispers of facts.

[Zanthia]

Well, literature offers nice stories. Both hystoric and not hystoric, fiction and not fiction.

[James]

literature is essentially, and always, linear, but in a good way [trep!]. ergo, it leaves very little room for practical application to adventure gaming. loose inspiration however, is another matter, see the discworld series as an example.

[Zanthia]

As far as I know, Discworld series are pretty linear.

[Henke]

History is boring?! Are you out of you're damn mind! :( :D

[remixor]

I think it's fair to make a statement like "I don't enjoy the study of history", but to say it's unimportant or inherently boring is rather ridiculous. I mean, I myself don't even really enjoy history that much, but I recognize it as being enormously important. It's also obviously pretty interesting, just not always to me.

[Kingzjester]

I never said it was unimportant. The problem i have is in raising history past its actual importance. I consider myself learned as far as history of western civilisation goes and less so about other civilisations. But I don't see it as amazing and something that is intrinsically 'fun'. Important, yes - as long as we are relativistic in looking behid. Just because those are our grandfathers back there, it doesn't mean we should laud their every idiocy.

Old literature is fun - I am no stranger to Ovid and Dante and Homer and Dostoyevski - but to say that they are fun because of the history, and that I read them to learn history is notorious. Homer's Troy was far more grandiose than the actual excavation of Troy in Asia Minor. Besides, the records up until the 20th century were written by 'gentlemen historians' - men with no particular desire to be impartial, or truthful, or accurate. They may as well have invent something cute and sold it as a history.....



You know, perhaps I am being much too general and therefore out of sync with the topic at hand...

[remixor]

Important, yes - as long as we are relativistic in looking behid. Just because those are our grandfathers back there, it doesn't mean we should laud their every idiocy.

This is something I would assume to be relatively self-evident, although I know people who fall prey to the mistake you mention. I had no idea it was what you were talking about in the first place, though. History LOSES its importance if one is not relativistic in looking back on it, and becomes more harmful than anything else.

but to say that they are fun because of the history, and that I read them to learn history is notorious.

Of course, but many people read such works to gain historical perspective, not from what is relayed in the story itself but from how it is told. (And something that you may not find fun could be practically orgasmic to someone else.)

Besides, the records up until the 20th century were written by 'gentlemen historians' - men with no particular desire to be impartial, or truthful, or accurate.

Until the 20th century? :rolleyes:


Just kidding, of course.


Sort of.

[Kode]

I never said it was unimportant. The problem i have is in raising history past its actual importance. I consider myself learned as far as history of western civilisation goes and less so about other civilisations. But I don't see it as amazing and something that is intrinsically 'fun'. Important, yes - as long as we are relativistic in looking behid. Just because those are our grandfathers back there, it doesn't mean we should laud their every idiocy.



Not all our grandfathers did idiotic things and not all of their doings were idiotic.

I, personally feel the way I do, because, it's interesting. And interesting things are intrinsically fun.

While I cannot see what you're saying, I understand what you're saying.

[Zanthia]

If one find history boring, may be it points out something about his history teacher. :)

[twifkak]

Studying history in a certain context doesn't have to be boring or unimportant. Art history teaches us about trends and the affect perception has, etc. etc. Science history is often explored to discover new applications of old ideas. Social history can help us learn more about the human mind.

However, history on its own, as a thing to Major in, seems like complete crap to me. What's the point of all this memorization? If you want to memorize the names of all the presidents and what they've done, become a poli-sci major and study political history for goodness's sake. The history major seems to me like a "jack of all trades" major.

(Well, if I'm wrong, edify me. :P)

Unless, of course, its the study of knowing how to read 19th century newspapers, in which case, it's a worthy skill. That's damn hard! :D

[Erwin_Br]

Don't know much about history
Don't know much biology
Don't know much about a science book
Don't know much about the French I took :pan:

*cough* Where were we?

--Erwin

[ragnar]

History is indeed an interesting subject. Not particularily to know about individual events, but get to know how they thought and how things were different from what they are today. To know how they thought and what was important. To know why things come about as they do today.

For example I recently read a book about the Whale-hunting ship "Essex" that was attacked by a whale and the ship sank. They were in the middle of the Pacific and had very little food and succeeded in sailing back to South America (albeit they began eating each other before they were rescued). Very interesting book.

[Dylan_Dog]

The history is a good starting point for any medium. Especially by using history manipulation. This is because history is interpreted in different ways and unlike maths or physics, there is not one answer nor one result. Every indinidual has his/her own views and translation of historic events.

History is good for games because of its easily manipulative nature. For example, you take something vague that happened a long time ago, eg. holy grail, stonehenge, pyramids, WW1 etc. then you look at few different interpretations, few different sources, then you combine them all and add a bit of your own thinking into it, and there, you have a perfect base for a good adventure game. Then you add some characters, amplify the suspense factor, and of you go with your multi-million dollar game.

[Kode]

History is good for games because of its easily manipulative nature. For example, you take something vague that happened a long time ago, eg. holy grail, stonehenge, pyramids, WW1 etc. then you look at few different interpretations, few different sources, then you combine them all and add a bit of your own thinking into it, and there, you have a perfect base for a good adventure game. Then you add some characters, amplify the suspense factor, and of you go with your multi-million dollar game.

Bingo! *D

[Dylan_Dog]

Oh yeah, and for those of you who think that history is boring - news flash - the best adventure games ever made were based on certain events, or even conceptually based on history. Let me name some of those games - Broken Sword series, Gabriel Knight series, Myst, Mystery of the Druids, Monkey Island series, Jack the Ripper, Grim Fandango, Syberia, The Longest Journey, Post Mortem, Lure of The Temptress, Jack Orlando, The Dame Was Loaded, Discworld, all those Atlantis games, all those Egyptian mystery games ..........

I can go on forever. There are trails of history in all of those games, and most of those games have been the biggest sellers. And why were they the biggest sellers? Because they were the most interesting. And why were they interesting? Because there were historic elements/concepts involved in all of them. Hence, history is not boring.

And another thing, you don't need a major in history to enjoy history.

[Kode]

Studying history in a certain context doesn't have to be boring or unimportant. Art history teaches us about trends and the affect perception has, etc. etc. Science history is often explored to discover new applications of old ideas. Social history can help us learn more about the human mind.

However, history on its own, as a thing to Major in, seems like complete crap to me. What's the point of all this memorization? If you want to memorize the names of all the presidents and what they've done, become a poli-sci major and study political history for goodness's sake. The history major seems to me like a "jack of all trades" major.

(Well, if I'm wrong, edify me. :P)

Unless, of course, its the study of knowing how to read 19th century newspapers, in which case, it's a worthy skill. That's damn hard! :D

I'm not a History major, nor am I a college student even! But I can sure say that a History major does more than memorize. If memorization is your drawback, then there is nothing out there that you can do that will not involve a little bit of memorization.

I feel I am underqualified to edify you on exactly what a History major does, but I feel I am qualified enough to edify you on what a History major is NOT limited to. ;)

[SamandMax]

After playing Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, I actually went back in time to learn more about the ancient city.

Oops, I've said too much.

[remixor]

My roommate and good friend of at least five years is a history major, and I can say with fair certainty that it's not much about "memorization"--at least, not more than most other majors. Serious study of anything requires memorization. Just off the top of my head, chemists memorize the periodic table, physicists memorize laws, musicians (like me) memorize modes and scales, language majors memorize vocabulary, computer science majors memorize code and syntax, etc., etc. To reduce any of those fields to memorization is unfair and not reflective of what one gains from their study. History is no exception. To study history is to gain significant perspective on why the world is the way it is today, and it is historians who often have the most accurate perspectives of thing going on today. This may seem ironic until one really thinks about it. I could certainly never be a history major, but that doesn't mean I think it's in any way a pointless or irrational field. I used to have that belief ("Don't dwell on the past" was something I often said to my history-loving friends), but in hindsight I realize that was ludicrous. It's at least arguably a much more practical and ultimately essential field than my own, so who am I to talk? ;)

[Intrepid Homoludens]

If anyone is interested, read A World Lit Only By Fire: The Medieval Mind And The Renaissance: Portrait Of An Age by William Manchester. It chronicles the major events from the European Middle Ages leading up to the Renaissance and - dare I say it? - does not read like a dry-ass academic history tome at all. The difference here is that it is history as narrative and as people, Manchester defies the conventions of the dusty fly-on-the-wall approach and instead presents the events as if they were happening around you (think Half-Life style). His chapters on Magellan's voyage alone is worth the price of admission, I've rarely ever vanished into a book this way - I was standing next to Magellan, watching him gradually seep into madness, driving his crew for months and months in search of the golden route through those seas, with nothing left to eat, nibbling on ropes and leather, many of them dying of starvation or exposure. Manchester's gift for detail and drama have very few peers in this category.

I am actually seriously considering reading it a second time. It wasn't until I read it that all the history courses I took in school suddenly exploded and flew up around me. This is the book to be engulfed in snuggled up warm and cozy indoors during the frozen tundra months. This is how history should be conveyed.

[twifkak]

Meh, I think I overspoke. ;) I really like to learn about other cultures, morés, etc., real or fake. I guess my main problem is that I don't give a damn about politics and war. :) Thanks, all, for responses that were less indendiary than mine.

Also, they were less incendiary.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Kakzilla, I'm still looking for a good book that chronicles the intrigues and treacheries within the powerful merchant family class during the Italian Renaissance. I mean, you would be stupefied at the atrocities - mothers pitting sons against sons, murders and mutilations, orgies at the Vatican, sex scandals that would make Clinton's look like a 'love is...' cartoon.

[remixor]

Trep: that actually seems really fascinating. Thanks for the heads up there. I may very well track a copy of that book down.


Kakzilla

Bwahahahaha.

[Kode]

Can I be karzilla? :D

[Kingzjester]

Can I be karzilla? :DWhat is up with all the reptilian augmentatives? It's getting old... There are surely some more inventive ways to sodomize people's screen names...

[Intrepid Homoludens]

You sound like such an expert, Kingzlebub. So, then, how do you sodomize? :) Inventively, that is?

[remixor]

Haha, you're so funny, kingzilla!

[Kingzjester]

You sound like such an expert, Kingzlebub. So, then, how do you sodomize? :) Inventively, that is?Hey, dude, don't look at me! You invented Kingzlebub, which I love dearly.

[remixor]

Can I be Beelzilla? Or Bubzilla? It's the best of both worlds!

[Kode]

Can I be Beelzilla? Or Bubzilla? It's the best of both worlds!

You be Rembub, and I'll be Karbub :D

We're likely going hideously off-topic here...

[Intrepid Homoludens]

[desperate attempt to save AG's face and stay on topic] Actually, one of the best storytelling styles I've seen is from Blair Witch Volume 1. Excellent how they integrated Native American mythology into the background narrative of the murders of the Burkittsville children. I still find myself recommending this game. [/desperate attempt to save AG's face and stay on topic]

[twifkak]

Kakzilla, I'm still looking for a good book that chronicles the intrigues and treacheries within the powerful merchant family class during the Italian Renaissance. I mean, you would be stupefied at the atrocities - mothers pitting sons against sons, murders and mutilations, orgies at the Vatican, sex scandals that would make Clinton's look like a 'love is...' cartoon.
I actually wouldn't be surprised. In high school, we got a little.. grr, I forgot the word again... "token" reading on Italian scandals to give our reading of The Prince some much needed context.

[remixor]

We Italians are a racy lot

[Dylan_Dog]

For those of you who want a bit of history, well, a lot of history, here's a nice book for ya: "The Penguin History of Europe" by J.M. Roberts.
The book is very comprehensive and covers everything from the very first civilisation on Europe to last few decades. It also includes all the mysteries and myths that go with the history. It's a must read, and can be used as a reference as well.

[Kode]

Two of the most interesting places on earth, for me, are Stone Henge and Easter Island. I'm fascinated by them :o

[Dylan_Dog]

Stonehenge, definitely. Has such a huge potential as a concept for a story on any medium, be it book, IF, adventure game, movie. Sooooo mysterious.

[ragnar]

Stonehenge, definitely. Has such a huge potential as a concept for a story on any medium, be it book, IF, adventure game, movie. Sooooo mysterious.

And sooooo overused already.

[Zanthia]

Like many others.

[Kode]

And sooooo overused already.

Really? I haven't come across a single movie/game/book that used it as a theme for some mysterious fiction...

And one must remember, a cliché is a cliché for a reason. It works (or atleast worked, in the past). :D

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Try Mystery of The Druids.

[Tamara]

Stonehenge, definitely. Has such a huge potential as a concept for a story on any medium, be it book, IF, adventure game, movie. Sooooo mysterious.
Why Stonehenge? It's positively modern compared to the Maltese Megalithic temples (some of which look relatively similar)

Malta has the oldest preserved temples in the world - predating the pyramids and Stonehenge!

[..]

Some of these stone buildings precede the pyramids by 1,000 years.




http://www.hitchins.co.uk/Malta.html

[DomStLeger]

Because Stone Henge has some charm?

[remixor]

Ouch ;)



-9fdsa8ug

[Kode]

Why Stonehenge? It's positively modern compared to the Maltese Megalithic temples (some of which look relatively similar)

The world over has historical and ancient things. He only said Stonehenge, Tamara, because I mentioned my interest in it. (I think) ;)

[Dylan_Dog]

Yeah. But in your regard Tamara, Malta, Sardinia, and Korsica ( I think) are full of megaliths, being one of the earliest birthplaces of civilised Europe. I also could've mentioned Greece - islands rich with Aegean, and Greek, Macedonian etc. history. I'd love to visit those places one day. For the sake of history.

[Garyos]

Yeah. But in your regard Tamara, Malta, Sardinia, and Korsica ( I think) are full of megaliths, being one of the earliest birthplaces of civilised Europe. Adventure game developer: "Man, that would make a kickass beginning for a story about ATLANTIS!"

:rolleyes:

[remixor]

Oh man, that would be awesome! And there could be some dormant ancient force, and some sort of lost text of some kind, and multiple parties with various shady motives all trying to harness the hidden power for their own means!

[ragnar]

Considering that England isn't more civilised than they were in the Stonehenge time, you could equally well use modern England. :D

[Tamara]

Because Stone Henge has some charm?
that's a remarkably ignorant remark ..

[ragnar]

that's a remarkably ignorant remark ..

I would go for the Maltese Megaliths all the time. Stonehenge is overrated.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

I would go for the Maltese Megaliths all the time. Stonehenge is overrated.

Tell that to the retarded developers.

[Erwin_Br]

Tell that to the retarded developers.

I'm afraid the developers of Stonehenge are dead. Or in space. I think.

--Erwin

[ragnar]

Tell that to the retarded developers.

I tell you. Aren't you developer of a game called Curves of Danger? :)

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Yes, and it's not about Stonehenge. http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/owen/PBsmile1a.gif

[ragnar]

Yes, and it's not about Stonehenge. http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/owen/PBsmile1a.gif

Well, I don't know that you know. I will just wait and see what it is when it comes out in 2032 (better not be too optimistic with the release date, right?). It could very well be about Stonehenge. ;)

[Intrepid Homoludens]

They didn't play tennis in Stonehenge, though ---

--- :eek: ......... http://smilies.jeeptalk.org/otn/other/ssst.gif

[DomStLeger]

that's a remarkably ignorant remark ..

Well it's true; it's featured many times in literature, television and wider entertainment. Theres a charm and feel around it which puts people in mind of mystery; the occult etc; which was an answer to your question:.

"Why Stonehenge? It's positively modern compared to the Maltese Megalithic temples (some of which look relatively similar)"

Whereas maltese megaliths are not as well known popularly and probably regardrd as just interesting monuments. In the end thy're both just a bunch of stones; but ones got itself a brand :D

[Tamara]

something that is over publicised and as mentioned clichéd doesn't necessarily have charm.

Plus, I think most of the people who've visited, wrote books (fiction and non) about them, made tons of artwork about or inspired by them, not to mention the loonies who still have a cult around them, would disagree with you. To those that like that sort of thing they have a rich and fascinating history and lore around them that's all the more interesting for being a relatively fresh breath of air for most people.

In any case, personally I couldn't care less, they're not *my* temples. I got annoyed by your remark because it was about something you don't know much or anything about -- I'll bet you didn't research even vaguely before saying that -- and because it was said just to say something, to annoy, not to add anything, or even be funny.

[ragnar]

Well it's true; it's featured many times in literature, television and wider entertainment. Theres a charm and feel around it which puts people in mind of mystery; the occult etc; which was an answer to your question:.


Yes it has the charm of being overused. I think those that include Stonehenge in some story mostly think along these lines: "Hey, it would be interesting to have some mystery and occult in this story, why don't we let the main characters travel to Stonehenge?" :rolleyes:

[Kode]

Something becomes a cliché for a reason. Cliches don't just grow on trees. They're made by people. And they're made because they work. Or used to, atleast, obviously seeing as to how you all are inherently biased against something that might be set around Stonehenge. You're being unappreciative and discouraging and some other adjectives for which words haven't been made. :( And so for purpose of making such a word, you're all being puglative. You are pugling.

[Garyos]

"In ancient times, hundreds of years before the dawn of history, an ancient race of people... the Druids. No one knows who they were or what they were doing..."

Stonehenge, where the demons dwell
Where the banshees live and they do live well
Stonehenge
Where a man is a man and the children dance to
the pipes of pan

[remixor]

"I'd like to ask a practical question at this point... Are we going to do Stonehenge tonight?"

"No, we're not going to fucking do Stonehenge!"



Garyos: best movie ever :D

[Dylan_Dog]

No point in arguing about history. I'm sure every country or place on earth has its own charm and history.
I know in adventure games, the most used historic concepts are Knights Templar, Atlantis, and Stonehenge. I haven't seen too much or Eastern history in adventure games or history relating to King Arthur and the Celts.

[Kode]

the most used historic concepts are Knights...I haven't seen too much or Eastern history in adventure games or history relating to King Arthur and the Celts.

:confused:

:D

[Dylan_Dog]

????????????????

[twifkak]

He was pointing out an apparent contradiction, in jest.

[Kode]

Twifkak is right. But then again, all knights didn't come from King Arthur's time, so Dylan does have a point....

[Dylan_Dog]

Hehehe, sorry guys. It seems like Knights Templar are linked with everything. But I was trying to concentrate on specifics. I haven't played a game that was specifically sourrended in Arthurian mysteries. Knights Templar where an order in the Holy Land, and King Arthur's knights where in the British islands - long way away from each other. I don't see a link. Correct me if I'm wrong guys, coz my history isn't the best. ;)

[Kode]

Hehehe, sorry guys. It seems like Knights Templar are linked with everything. But I was trying to concentrate on specifics. I haven't played a game that was specifically sourrended in Arthurian mysteries. Knights Templar where an order in the Holy Land, and King Arthur's knights where in the British islands - long way away from each other. I don't see a link. Correct me if I'm wrong guys, coz my history isn't the best. ;)
You are likely correct ;) Like I mentioned in my previous post, King Arthur's time did have knights, but all Knights didn't come from Arthurian times, so there must have been some other such guys around :D

[Dylan_Dog]

I was just thinking - apart from this common usage of Knights Templar and Stonehenge and other historic ideas, there is one concept that has been used time and time again. Remember this - guy wakes up and has no memory of where he is or who he is - that's how the story starts. And this thing works really well, coz you can take it any way from there.

[Tamara]

I haven't played a game that was specifically sourrended in Arthurian mysteries.
There are actually at least two games based on those myths, very originally named Arthur's Knights I and Arthur's Knights II. However, they're incredibly, astoundingly, absolutely, awful and I wouldn't recommend them to anyone :) (Although, if you find them for cheap, while the game bit is pure unadulterated crap, there's a nice encyclopaedia thingy in-game that does give you lots of interesting information.)

[Dylan_Dog]

Thanx Tamara, will give it a glance if I do come upon such games.

[Zanthia]

..all knights didn't come from King Arthur's time, so Dylan does have a point....

yes, like don Kihot? :)

[Tamara]

Quixote :)

[remixor]

...who was, himself, not a proper knight but merely a deluded old man upholding his impossibly idealistic and chivalrous code. What a wonderful concept for a novel. :) Honestly, it could make a really cool adventure game, too. I don't think there's been one yet, anyway.

[Zanthia]

The question is then will the player live in his world or in Suncho pansas world, like fight with giants or wind millows? :)

[Dylan_Dog]

Would it be fair to say that one of the reasons why the adventure genre isn't up there with other genres is because the stories aren't developing anymore - there is a lack of original material out there, and too many cliches and stories are being re-used, hence the puzzles and gameplay is re-used as well?

[James]

Hmm, I dunno about that. The Longest Journey showed a fantastic intitiative and imagination in the narrative. Grim Fandango is another case. Broken Sword: The Sleeping Dragon looks to be continuing the trend of treading both fact and fiction as seen in the previous games in the series.

At the same time, I'd personally like to see the adventure genre deal with more realistic, adult issues and themes, integrated into the storytelling. This is one of the few genres that it would be permissable, the other being the rpg.

[Henke]

At the same time, I'd personally like to see the adventure genre deal with more realistic, adult issues and themes, integrated into the storytelling. This is one of the few genres that it would be permissable, the other being the rpg.

I totally agree. That and more historical themes. :D

[Zanthia]

At the same time, I'd personally like to see the adventure genre deal with more realistic, adult issues and themes, integrated into the storytelling. This is one of the few genres that it would be permissable, the other being the rpg.

Sorry, but I don't c what do u meen by "realistic, adult issues and themes, integrated into the storytelling'.
love? sex? realistic gameplay? story that could happen in real world?

[Kode]

Would it be fair to say that one of the reasons why the adventure genre isn't up there with other genres is because the stories aren't developing anymore - there is a lack of original material out there, and too many cliches and stories are being re-used, hence the puzzles and gameplay is re-used as well?

I dunno about that, either. Take a look at FPS games. There was Wolfenstein, now there's Medal of Honor. It's essentially the same all around, except the graphics, sound and look are much better. Perhaps the majority of the gaming community has begun to give graphics and the allround look of a game more emphasis than what we think it deserves. RTSs and MMORPGs have indeed developed, but if I'm not mistaken, FPSs are still the most widely played game. Perhaps, also because they're simpler to play that the rest. I don't mean that only stupid people play FPSs, I'm just saying a large part of the gaming community that prefers less thinking and more exhilaration play FPSs.

After all, isn't gaming about excitement? Some people can't derive that from Adventure games. :sad:

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Sorry, but I don't c what do u meen by "realistic, adult issues and themes, integrated into the storytelling'.
love? sex? realistic gameplay? story that could happen in real world?

Love, sex, contemporary hate crimes, racism, religious intolerance, rape, physical and psychological abuse, child pornography, violence towards women, bioterrorism, homosexuality, domestic familial conflicts, cloning and ethics, abortion, free speech and privacy, emotions vs. reason, personal identity, the limits of science.........

[Zanthia]

And why can't all thise happen in sci-fy world, for example.
By the way, more than half of those things WAS used in ags.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

And why can't all thise happen in sci-fy world, for example.

And who ever said they can't happen? Go ask the developers.

By the way, more than half of those things WAS used in ags.

To what extent, Zanthia? To what extent? :) Examples, please?

[remixor]

At the same time, I'd personally like to see the adventure genre deal with more realistic, adult issues and themes, integrated into the storytelling. This is one of the few genres that it would be permissable, the other being the rpg.

Why would this only be "permissable" in the RPG and adventure genres? I've seen plenty of FPS games lately with a lot more of this than most adventures...


EDIT: first post on the page AGAIN. this is crazy!

[twifkak]

FPSs usually deal with it via non-interactive cutscenes, at least. Not exactly a bucket of potential.

Yes, bucket.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Why would this only be "permissable" in the RPG and adventure genres? I've seen plenty of FPS games lately with a lot more of this than most adventures...

I'll ask you the same question I asked Zanthia: To what extent, remix? To what extent?

[remixor]

Well, yeah, but that's essentially how most adventures do it too. The actual GAMEPLAY of adventure games is basically just puzzles which are motivated in a larger sense by some plot line. And besides, James was talking about adult issues and realistic themes, which I'd think could exist irrespective of how the story is integrated into the game.

[twifkak]

The actual GAMEPLAY of adventure games is basically just puzzles which are motivated in a larger sense by some plot line.
For now, but the inventory/dialogue puzzles (not to mention other potential non-action puzzles -- body language/position, e.g.) have a lot more potential to force the player to make interesting social decisions than does "to shoot or not to shoot."

[remixor]

I completely agree, I just think that with FPS games making the progress they have been making recently, it would be unfair to assume that their developers would not be capable of eventually implementing similar advancements.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Yes, and this is when I get the [justifiable] urge to murder most adventure game developers for being morons for not exploring such things as artificial intelligence, full facial expressions, cinematic direction, lighting and shadows, and other vital elements and details that such subject matters need to feel more immediate and good to the player.

[Zanthia]

To what extent, Zanthia? To what extent? Examples, please?

Depends. Love -ooooooh. There r 100s of examples. I'm more than sure u can name some yorself.

contemporary hate crimes- Dunno, I don't play much in ivestigation type of games. But I am sure there are some.

physical and psychological abuse= April and her father what I can think about now. Does turning people into stone counts? :D

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[Intrepid Homoludens]

It's a matter of how actually good the developer is at handling the subject matter. A really good developer can skillfully integrate a deep, complex [mature] story with such gameplay elements as puzzlework and character interaction. In my opinion not many developers can do this. I think it's so important to be able to think laterally in how you present a deep involving story specifically through an interactive media such as computer games, but without letting the experience come across as forced, unnatural, or just plain awkward, or worse, stupidly melodramatic.

The example you gave, Zanthia - physical and psychological abuse = April and her father - is a strong one, very few games (adventure or otherwise) have touched on it. But I don't think Tornquist handled it to the best advantage, and I'm not sure if this is because he slipped into the typical conventions of gameplay paradigm or if he wasn't very good at character development and story in the first place. I felt that the way he just dumped April's abused past in front of the player as a puzzle was tacky. Consider that in the light of his practically never alluding to April's painful childhood experiences throughout the course of the story except in one or two instances, and even then you're never allowed to linger over it. In short, Tornquist disrespected the sheer emotional weight and force of such a difficult subject matter, he could have handled it more subtlely and emphatically. But as it stands, The Longest Journey still represents a baby step in the right direction for games presenting such mature issues.

[Tom_K]

...in the light of his practically never alluding to April's painful childhood experiences throughout the course of the story except in one or two instances, and even then you're never allowed to linger over it. In short, Tornquist disrespected the sheer emotional weight and force of such a difficult subject matter, he could have handled it more subtlely and emphatically. But as it stands, The Longest Journey still represents a baby step in the right direction for games presenting such mature issues.
I felt that way as well.

[James]

The Longest Journey was, I felt, somewhat crude and obvious in its treatment of this area of the plot. However, it is one of the primary games to deal with such issues on a literal level, Sanitarium having dealt with abuse on a metaphorical level. It's important that adventures are tactful in this area, but should also make progress wherever possible.

[remixor]

I don't know, I didn't even feel that abuse was a very strong theme in TLJ at all. As Trep says, it's only placed in front of the player once, as a puzzle, and it seemed like kind of a cheap shot to me. I still don't see April as an "abuse victim" because the game did not integrate that experience into her character at all, it simply says at one point "Hey, it happened!" and leaves it at that. That's not particularly interesting or difficult, and it would have been just as easy to, at that point in the game, insert something like April's father having died when she was young, or April's brother having been kidnapped or something. It was sort of a generic treatment of childhood trauma.

[James]

That's an element of my argument. The treatment of the issue was ambigous and generic, and so I felt lacking the definition it should be allowed. still, i do agree it was of minor signifigance in the context of the game itself.

[Dylan_Dog]

very minor indeed

[Gabe]

and now you going to love ol' text adv. (much likely )too,you can find hundreds of them on the net free!I admit they can be even more good looking

[FrenZ]

I for one don't like games which get to technical and which rely mostly on history or science research. Ironically, my favourite game is Broken Sword The Shadow of the Templars.

[remixor]

Well, BS1 doesn't really "rely mostly" on historical or scientific research, I'd say. History is the basis for the underlying story, but the gameplay itself is fairly removed from it and the player isn't really forced to put him/herself in a "historical" mentality if he/she doesn't want to. The game has enough other themes that it really covers the gamut--which is one of the things that makes it such a great game.

[Zanthia]

I don't know, I didn't even feel that abuse was a very strong theme in TLJ at all. As Trep says, it's only placed in front of the player once, as a puzzle, and it seemed like kind of a cheap shot to me. I still don't see April as an "abuse victim" because the game did not integrate that experience into her character at all, it simply says at one point "Hey, it happened!" and leaves it at that. That's not particularly interesting or difficult, and it would have been just as easy to, at that point in the game, insert something like April's father having died when she was young, or April's brother having been kidnapped or something. It was sort of a generic treatment of childhood trauma.

Well, there wasn't much of her past may b. But it was in her diary, especcially if u read from the beginning. And there its hard 2 change on some other trauma, for she particularry came to city running from abuse.