I just wasted my money on Dreamfall [Archive]

Thaurin

07-10-2007, 02:14 AM

Okay, here goes... again.

BUY A GAMEPAD!!

There. I said it. You can play games with gamepad on a PC. It's not weird, or anything. It works. It fits into your USB slots. Better yet, there are really cheap ones, too!

There are so many more adventure games that play perfectly with a gamepad that it's really worth investing in. Grim Fandango, Escape From Monkey Island, Broken Sword: Shadow of the Templars, Dark Earth, Fahrenheit, etc. You're not less of a person if you play PC games using a gamepad. If you still feel embarrassed about it, I promise I won't tell!

Trust me, playing adventure games from your comfortable couch is a very relaxing way to go about it.

Furthermore, I've heard many people say that they had no problems playing the game with a keyboard. I wouldn't know, because I was happily thumbing my analogue sticks.

As for any lack of gameplay, I feel that games like this need to exist as well as games with more puzzles and difficulty. For what it's worth, I enjoyed that a lot. Some may have different tastes, but I for one hope for more games like this.

Terramax

07-10-2007, 02:39 AM

I haven't played it yet, but I own it. I waited about 6-12 months for the price to go lower than £9 but it stayed at that price on Amazon for months so I picked it up at that.

I looked on Amazon yesterday and now it's going for just £2!!! :frusty:

And yep, buying a gamepad is a good thing. I've got a ps2 usb adaptor so I play AGs with my playstation pad. It doesn't feel weird at all. Or there are xbox or probably gamecube versions out there. It's worth a shot scribes.

noknowncure

07-10-2007, 06:20 AM

I wouldn't know, because I was happily thumbing my analogue sticks.

There's got to be a better way to say that.

Bagpuss

07-10-2007, 06:27 AM

Yeah, I found keyboard movement fine, though in combat it seemed unresponsive. I often used the mouse to fine tune the direction, or to try and keep a side-on view to watch April's cloak billow in a cool way.

Orange Brat

07-10-2007, 07:44 AM

Thaurin

07-10-2007, 08:21 AM

I'm guessing it's possible that this person is only familiar with playing point-and-click adventure games and isn't very experiences with using a computer otherwise. I mean, a lot of the stuff we do on the computer comes natural to us, but have you ever watched an elderly person start with using a computer! It's so frustrating! (Sorry, mum) So where this person might have expected a classic point-and-click interface, he or she might have been confronted with differing controls that are completely alien. It's possible to learn, but it might have a steep curve.

On the other hand, it's also possible that there's a lot of whining going on on the internet. :P

Crapstorm

07-10-2007, 08:27 AM

What's so difficult about moving the character? You move the mouse to move the camera and press a button to move forward. Really difficult stuff there. More like typical and standard. If you can't learn how to control a direct control avatar I suggest you learn like the billions of other people who have.

This is similar to asking a person who doesn't like reading a particular book, "what's so hard about reading this book?! You just scan your eyes over the letters on the page, recognize the words and then turn to the next page." It may not be the case that the person can't do those things. Probably he or she finds the task burdensome and not worth the payoff.

scribeswindow

07-10-2007, 08:40 PM

Melanie68

07-10-2007, 08:55 PM

DustyTrail

07-11-2007, 12:25 AM

Thaurin

07-11-2007, 01:58 AM

Just out of interest Thaurin, could you please specify what you do that comes 'natural' to you?

Well, for things unrelated to gaming it might be typing blind and without thinking about it whereas my mother has to think about each and every key press; and using the mouse comes very natural to me; almost an extension of your limbs. It's a result of having used computers a lot for 25 years. Of course I'm going to have a different experience that someone that only casually uses a computer.

As far as gaming is concerned, the WASD + mouse thing has become pretty much the standard for FPS and third-person games. So juggling my left-hand fingers to move forward, turn around, go backwards and at the same time manipulate the camera so I keep a good view of my character and the room comes natural after you've played dozens of games that use the same controls.

I don't really remember what controls Dreamfall employed, but I'm guessing it was the classic WASD thing. So I guess I don't really have to think about steering and looking around. I just decide where to go and do it. At the same time, I can really imagine that a lot of adventure game players have never bothered with first-person shooters or anything. Maybe third-person RPG's like Gothic, which may have prepared them for such controls, but I can entirely see how someone has only played point-and-click games and feels that the controls are strange.

On the other hand, bad camera angles, collision problems and unresponsive controls do happen in games. I just don't remember Dreamfall being one of those games.

How silly do you feel now, dear?

No more than usual, really. Which is still pretty silly, but not so much that I'd go and feel embarrassed about it. :D Anyway, I thought that my post was only having a look at people's different experiences with playing games, not about "I CAN PLAI GAMEZ BETTAR THEN YOU!!1" so what's the deal?

wycked

07-11-2007, 02:20 AM

I hated the character movement too, I just couldn't get into it enough to thorougly enjoy the game, so yeah, it WAS awkward. It wasn't the classic WASD, can't have been, as I'm very familiar with that and find it easy to use. I can't remember how exactely it worked but I've played lots of games in 3D environments without any problems but Dreamfall wasn't one of them. I promise it gets better though, if it hadn't I would've given up. There was one particular place later in the game I admit I gave up for a while. I had a friend, who had finished the game, help me get past the place because I was tearing my hair out :p

Risingson

07-11-2007, 03:14 AM

I don't really remember what controls Dreamfall employed, but I'm guessing it was the classic WASD thing. So I guess I don't really have to think about steering and looking around.

And you bash your opinion against the guy just basing on... guessings? You don't remember the movement but just say that if someone cannot feel confortable with it is that he/she is too old, too narrow-minded, or has not that very long experience (lol) with computer controls (lol) you have?

aries323

07-11-2007, 05:28 AM

Yóu can configure Dreamfall to be a point and click game in the options menu.
And by that I mean, if you go into the options menu in the game, you can choose the mouse as the controller that makes your character go forward etc. in the game. You can also change the camera to third person.

The only bad thing about the controls in Dreamfall, to me, was the red band that you used to interact with your sorroundings. However, many people found it better to play Dreamfall using a joypad or gamepad.

nl4m

07-11-2007, 05:57 AM

If it helps, the ending isn't all that great. It leaves much of the questions (raised through the game) in the dark.

Just out of interest Thaurin, could you please specify what you do that comes 'natural' to you?

Hahahahah... The first thing that naturally comes to a persons mind after buying a computer is to use it to learn and do homework :)

Thaurin

07-11-2007, 07:41 AM

And you bash your opinion against the guy just basing on... guessings? You don't remember the movement but just say that if someone cannot feel confortable with it is that he/she is too old, too narrow-minded, or has not that very long experience (lol) with computer controls (lol) you have?

I wonder, why do you put words in my mouth? I have not said any of the things you claim I did. I'm not "bashing" my opinion against anyone. I have considered the possibility that someone can feel uncomfortable with some styles of control, and as an example I gave elderly people and how they hit their heads against walls trying to get to terms with how a keyboard/mouse works. I not once directly accused anyone of lack of computer experience. In fact, I could be totally wrong about my assertion, but should that stop me from putting it forth on this forum? Why so sensitive? I like the narrow-minded spin, though. Very creative.

If it helps, the ending isn't all that great. It leaves much of the questions (raised through the game) in the dark.

While you're right about the remaining questions, I thought the ending was very emotional and inspiring. I thought it was good story-telling. And after what I've read on some blog from a developer, I agree even more with the ending. The thing is, Zoe's story did end. There was character development and the threads that entail her life have had their conclusion. There is, however, an overarching plot that still has loose ties, but it is in the planning to release a sequel to fix that up. Apparently, the story is know to the developers and they know where they are going with this. So I have confidence that they will wrap it up eventually and it will be grand. :)

Christian IV

07-11-2007, 08:30 AM

Scribeswindow,

I am sorry you had such a bad experience with Dreamfall, I did too, and thought the movement controls some of the WORST i have ever seen in any game, they are NOT standard WASD, they are a hybrid mongrel mix and mash and I HATE them with a passion and hope that FunCom NEVER ever uses this type of game control again. PC standard controls have a solid and honored history and should be respected, gamepads and other controls are fine for those who like them, but I feel strongly that the conventions of standard keyboard controls should be respected no matter what new fads of controling come and go, as they have, do and will.

FunCom was trying to create a new direction for adventure gaming and I am sorry to say, fell down hard with this game, the story line was a sad shadow of what it could have been with superficial and at times very hard to take parodies of characters, overly forced in emotional weight and meaning, and the game play was in some places, i.e.the combat sequences, just bad. It was very sad as I still feel the Longest Journey remains a masterpiece, one of the very best CGI games ever made yet, and the story line offers much to skilled and sophisticated development. There is hope for a sequel that may save the day.

For now, yes indeed you wasted your time and money and FunCom and Ragnar have yet to admit their many errors and failures with this game. And a final word, at times exchange on this forum can get a bit strong, pls enjoy sharing here and forgive some of the stings and arrows of outrageous fortune. thanks for sharing, and I am sorry about Dreamfall, but it is a lousy game in many ways when it should have been brilliant and has indeed some wonderfully beautiful scenes, especially Old Marchuria. Thanks again for your thread. :)

Thaurin

07-11-2007, 09:56 AM

Sure, I like this thread, too and if I've given anyone the impression that I'm just attacking fellow forum members, that was never intentional.

But I seem to remember this game getting rave reviews and high praise. Of course, one can argue about the state of the game reviewing industry all day long, but still no game will get universally good reviews without a certain level of quality and polish. Was it different from its prequel? Hell, yes! But can you say that it was a bad game because of it? I think that really depends on who's saying it.

For example, I hated April in The Longest Journey. I didn't feel anything but resentment for her. I thought the game dragged and harped on unexciting premises on numerous occasions. The puzzles were much more intricate, and if you want that and only that, Dreamfall will fall short. But why does every adventure game have to be frustratingly hard? On story and characterization I still feel Dreamfall delivered. You disagree and that's fine.

Hey, everyone is entitled to an opinion. I can take them. I just can't take the loud opinions of those people who feel they need to generalize their opinions into something that everybody should feel. I might disagree and offer suggestions to improve gameplay, but if I feel that the game delivered on everything I wanted from it at the time I played it, I'm gonna go with an A-rating.

So just relax and stop raising your voice.

Crapstorm

07-11-2007, 10:25 AM

You mean like this?

BUY A GAMEPAD!!

Thaurin

07-11-2007, 11:16 AM

Yeah, because I think it's good advise. It's in capitals because I don't understand why some people would not want to try a different way of controlling your game, even if it's not so popular on the PC platform. It's like, you have a keyboard and a mouse, so I don't want no stinking gamepad!

Oh wait, I probably should have left out the part about raising voices.

darook

07-11-2007, 11:39 AM

I aslo find controls a little akward, especially the camera movement. But you get use to them in maximum 2-3 chapters, because the story is so absorbing. If you don't give it a chance you will lose probably one of the depeest gamming experience and the closest a game can be to the actually adventure.

MasterLoo

07-11-2007, 11:54 AM

Maybe it's just me, but the reason why I decide to play on a computer instead of on a console, is because I find the gamepad/joystick/gamestick/joypad/whatever... annoying. The games which tries to force it's player to buy a gamepad, are the games I in general avoid. I haven't enjoyed using a gamepad since I played my C64.

No matter what, options are always good. I find it a bit annoying that games are released for PC, when the control is obviously made for a console gamepad(because after playing for 5 min, you still struggle with not bumping into walls or whatever). This is especially common with newer adventure games which try to move from 2D to 3D with various luck. Why not make it an option, so those who prefer playing the game with a gamepad can select one type of control, while those who prefer playing with a keyboard and mouse can select easily another predefined set of controls which are optimised for the keyboard + mouse. In my opinion: if I have to buy a gamepad to enjoy a game, then the game has a big handicap, since you have to figure out the control before you can even start playing it.

nl4m

07-11-2007, 01:27 PM

While you're right about the remaining questions, I thought the ending was very emotional and inspiring.

The ending is shocking, no doubt about it. It's just some of it "shockingness" was over shadowed with the questions. Aside from killing characters off, nothing else was solved. By the ending the only thing that was going through my head was "And what happened to that ?... And where is that guy ?..." To really got info, and fill in some questions, I had to read about the walkthrough of the first part.

I thought it was good story-telling. And after what I've read on some blog from a developer, I agree even more with the ending.

Blog ? Post a link, please.

The thing is, Zoe's story did end.

Hahahahah... It had to :) unless she comes back as the virus.

I can't wait to see the last part. I really want to see how they are planning to rap it up. Are they going to bring in new characters/events - as in Dreamfall - or continue with what they have.

Thaurin

07-11-2007, 02:00 PM

MasterLoo: I think it's harder to make controls smooth for a game than it would appear to the uninformed. So occasionally a studio will deliver a game that fails to be good in this regard. However, I refuse to believe that any respectable game studio will want to force you to use any one type of control, except keyboard/mouse on PC. Sometimes it's incompetence, other times it's deadlines and lack of funds, and yes bad ports to happen, but still I see nothing wrong with gamepads on PC.

In fact, I think it's the best of both worlds. The flexibility of the PC with the relaxed gameplay of consoles. Especially for adventure games I have found this to be effective; what's better than to sit back in your comfy chair with a gamepad, not having to bend over a keyboard for anything? Drink a few beers along with it and it's a fantastic time you're having. But as always, everyone has a different opinion, of course. Point-and-click doesn't really work with this.

In short, customizable controls are best; but you need to understand that consoles have standardized controls on their pads as well, such that you generally understand how a game plays when you first start it. You can learn to get the same feeling on PC (but of course, it'll never be as natural as on consoles).

P.S. Commodore 64 had gamepads? ;)

nl4m: I think the point of Dreamfall was just an emotional journey of a few people (mainly Zoe), while introducing a few new concepts into the world of The Longest Journey. The game was obviously not meant to close everything up, which seems to be confirmed by the developers.

I think the focus was set brilliantly on was made Zoe tick, what her issues were (which were many ;)). Afterwards, she does reach some conclusion about herself and she finds out a bit about this whole dream world thing, but mostly about what she's all about. This story just screams sequel and I hope that everybody else sees that.

By the ending the only thing that was going through my head was "And what happened to that ?... And where is that guy ?..." To really got info, and fill in some questions, I had to read about the walkthrough of the first part.

And you know what? The best media (games, series, movies, books) I've ploughed through worked the same way. You forget that you're so into this thing that you actually care a lot about what happened to them. So it's not explained, but that keeps you guessing. If everything is explained, your imagination has nothing to do. ;)

Okay, so I assume this is not just laziness on the developers part (as in, oh we ran out of money, so let's wrap this up fast). There is meaning behind the way they did this (according to their own words). And you can't deny that there have been plenty of Dreamfall topics on the internet that discuss the whole thing. The only thing we can hope for is that they will deliver on the rest of the story. :)

Blog ? Post a link, please.

Ugh, I need to find this now, of course. Will edit this post if I do. Found it! It was actually another guy on these forums that I got it from. More info:

http://ragnartornquist.com/?p=154

Dreamfall (the game) finishes the story of Dreamfall (the game). It may not seem like that to everyone who’s played it, at least for the time being, but it does. Dreamfall’s story is a story about faith and the story of Faith. It’s about a little girl who needs to let go, and it’s about three people’s journeys - both physical and metaphysical - and those journeys do reach an end.

nl4m

07-11-2007, 02:33 PM

nl4m: I think the point of Dreamfall was just an emotional journey of a few people (mainly Zoe), while introducing a few new concepts into the world of The Longest Journey.

Yes. But since they put Zoe in the game, it makes her a part of The Longest Journey series. In the sequel I sure they have to mention her. Her story wasn't 100% told.

I think the focus was set brilliantly on was made Zoe tick, what her issues were (which were many ;)).

HHAHAHAHAH... Forgive me for saying this, but throughout most of the game I wanted to say "How desperate are you ? Just leave the man alone, find a new boyfriend, and call it a day. A boyfriend that asks you to risk your life for him is not worth it." :)

And you know what? The best media (games, series, movies, books) I've ploughed through worked the same way. You forget that you're so into this thing that you actually care a lot about what happened to them.

Tell me about it! I'm still thinking about Still Life :)

So it's not explained, but that keeps you guessing. If everything is explained, your imagination has nothing to do. ;)

I understand to leave a few things out. Dreamfall wasn't half told. Alot was left to the imagination :)

http://ragnartornquist.com/?p=154

Thanks !!!

scribeswindow

07-11-2007, 05:48 PM

You have to admit Thaurin that you did come across very rude. That's why I wanted you to specify what makes you such a natural with the computer.

There was also a subtle assertion that I was 'old'. You may not have meant it to come across that way, but it did. As for experience on a computer (I feel the need to defend myself here) I'm a touch typist 60 WPM. Admittedly I have only been playing games that are traditional point and click using a mouse. However, I had my husband have a go playing Dreamfall and he found the controls terrible. He is an engineer who draws on the computer for a living. If that doesn't show some sort of mouse control, as well as other type of experience with a computer, not really sure what else complies.

In answer to buying a gamepad. I take your point, but I bought this game in good faith to play on my PC. On an personal note, I'm playing computer games at the moment as relaxation as I have a baby who is almost three months. :crazy: I can't be bothered going out to buy a gamepad with a baby in the house. I just wanted to sit down and play Dreamfall, that was the last game in a nice few I had bought recently specifically for the purposes of relaxing in between baby stuff.

Hence, the reason why I had to write on the forum in the first place to vent my frustrations. :frusty: Again, thanks for listening everyone. I still stand by that I've wasted my money. Thanks for those who agreed that there were rude overtones to response(s). Having said that, I'm waiting for a delivery from an online game store. So in the meantime I'll persevere with Dreamfall. Who knows, I may even learn how to use a computer......:P

Maquisard

07-11-2007, 06:28 PM

Online game stores deliver gamepads as well. :P

I played through this on my X-box (it was a rental, so I didn't pay full amount for it), and it was easy enough to direct, though I am used to X-box controllers. I'm not sure how this would work on a PC. Have you ever tried Grim Fandango? I imagine if you mastered that game, Dreamfall would be an easy step up. Think of Grim Fandango as a game with frustrating controls that is a must-play, regardless. You get a lot more bang for your buck too, as it's a budget title at this point. So I guess I would suggest playing through Grim Fandango first. It might enable you to enjoy Dreamfall at one point. As far as engaging stories go, you could do a lot worse than Dreamfall.

Not A Speck Of Cereal

07-11-2007, 07:25 PM

HHAHAHAHAH... Forgive me for saying this, but throughout most of the game I wanted to say "How desperate are you ? Just leave the man alone, find a new boyfriend, and call it a day. A boyfriend that asks you to risk your life for him is not worth it." :)

You (and others) seemed to have missed a few obvious points in the story.

First, she had lost her motivations in life and this adventure was a kick start for her.

Second, how callous does one need to be to abandon a boyfriend who seems to be in trouble?

Third, it wasn't just the boyfriend she ended up seeking, it was his quest that she eventually undertook, engaging with all of the stakeholders and resolved the issue.

Yes, there were loose end not tied, but in the end, I found it an enjoyable game.

scribeswindow

07-11-2007, 10:10 PM

lazylazyjoe

07-11-2007, 10:12 PM

I dont think Im that old, (26), but when I think of "classic" or "traditional" graphical adventure games, I always think back to playing the old Sierra Agi games. They were all direct control and people never seemed to mind it back then. Infact, when point and click came about, people complained that those controls were unnatural and confining. Also, removing the need to type commands upset many diehard fans. (Though there were a few games that used point and click for movement and typed commands)

I dont play FPS shooters(tried doom & descent many years ago, but never got into it), and I had never even heard of the WASD control system before playing this game. Actually, Dreamfall was the first fully 3d game I had ever really played. Maybe it was because I had no opinion on or habit using 3d controls, but it took me less than 5 minutes to get comfortable playing Dreamfall. I played the first few chapters fine with the keyboard. (Keyboard moves the character, mouse controls camera angle. ) Then I went out and bought a game pad with dual analog sticks(gotta use analog) from Walmart for $12, so I could play while sitting on the couch. (the left pad moves the character, the right changes the camera angle.) The controls seemed as logical as any direct control adventure game I've ever played. I just dont understand what so many people (more than just this thread) are complaining about. I thought this was an excellent game, and just hate to hear bad things to be said about it. There's no point and click, and the main purpose of the game is not solving puzzles; but the game definately delivers a sense of adventure and manages to draw you into it's story perfectly without being overshadowed by poor controls, at least I think so.

Now, if you want to talk about an adventure game having poor controls, Grim Fandango is much worse than Dreamfall. The directional arrows just dont move the character properly in the direction you choose, from either control type. I installed it 3 weeks ago, and still havent played past the first day yet because I got so put off by the controls, even though I really want to play it because the story looks great.

tabacco

07-11-2007, 10:18 PM

If you want a gamepad, get yourself a wired Xbox 360 controller. It works just fine on a PC with no adapters or weird software required. I also find them a LOT more comfortable than most PC gamepads. Plus they're easy to find and not that expensive.

Thaurin

07-12-2007, 12:19 AM

Teehee, I live for these kinds of long responses.

Yes. But since they put Zoe in the game, it makes her a part of The Longest Journey series. In the sequel I sure they have to mention her. Her story wasn't 100% told.

Oh, they will have to make her a part of the next story, just like April was in Dreamfall. :) I liked Zoe better than April, anyway. She had lots of problems and was messed up, but they were of a much more serious nature-- not the girly stuff that April was thinking and doing in the first part of The Longest Journey!

HHAHAHAHAH... Forgive me for saying this, but throughout most of the game I wanted to say "How desperate are you ? Just leave the man alone, find a new boyfriend, and call it a day. A boyfriend that asks you to risk your life for him is not worth it." :)

That's what I'm talking about. :) I just have a little thing for girls in trouble. I could relate. I have problems, too. ;)

I understand to leave a few things out. Dreamfall wasn't half told. Alot was left to the imagination :)

And some of it was absolutely intentional, because the story goes on. It's not all finished, so it's like a book in a series. Some things are self-contained, but the overall story arch has yet to see its conclusion.

You have to admit Thaurin that you did come across very rude. That's why I wanted you to specify what makes you such a natural with the computer.

Hey, I didn't mention that I'm a "natural" with computers until you asked for clarification. And I didn't want it to seem like I was showing off, or something. Like it's something to be proud of. :P The only important thing here was that if you are not used to doing something, you're going to have some problems feeling comfortable with it.

There was also a subtle assertion that I was 'old'. You may not have meant it to come across that way, but it did.

Sorry, but I can't continuously worry about people reading into things. There was no subtle assertion. It was an example, one that just happened to be from my personal experience (my mother just starting to use a computer for the first time). That is all. I can't believe I have to explain this. In fact, this is starting to bother me somewhat.

As for experience on a computer (I feel the need to defend myself here) I'm a touch typist 60 WPM. Admittedly I have only been playing games that are traditional point and click using a mouse. However, I had my husband have a go playing Dreamfall and he found the controls terrible. He is an engineer who draws on the computer for a living. If that doesn't show some sort of mouse control, as well as other type of experience with a computer, not really sure what else complies.

You're missing the point. It's not typing skills, design skills or general computer skills that make up the bulk of the difference here. It's experience with the controls Dreamfall uses. If I play a game and it uses some sort of control scheme I have never used, I will have problems if it doesn't resemble anything I've played before.

A good example of this was the game Gothic. So many people complained about the controls of this game, and they are hard to get into. It has a learning curve, but after I grew comfortable with them, I think they are the best I've ever encountered in any game. Many other people have grown to love them like I do. But certainly my previous experience with computers and games did not sufficiently prepare me for them. It probably helped (as compared to someone who has never touched a keyboard in their life), but since no other game I had played worked like that, I had to learn to be comfortable with the controls.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying you have never touched a keyboard in your life. ;)

P.S. I see you list the Tex Murphy games among your favourites. Now those are games where the controls are downright frustrating sometimes. :P But they are among the best first-person adventure games anyway.

In answer to buying a gamepad. I take your point, but I bought this game in good faith to play on my PC.

And I don't see how this makes any difference. A gamepad is as much at home with a PC as is a mouse. Yeah, they usually don't ship with one, but as a gamer I feel it's a must! Precisely because it makes some games so much more relaxing.

I can't be bothered going out to buy a gamepad with a baby in the house.

Oh my god, how do you buy food? ;)

Thanks for those who agreed that there were rude overtones to response(s).

Yeah, you can kinda expect that when you come in screaming about how angry you are about something that is "unplayable." Fact is that too many people go to that extreme and there will be people with wildly different views. As you were the first one to throw in such strong emotions into the thread, it's easy enough to pay in kind. However, I don't recall specifically attacking anyone personally myself.

Having said that, I'm waiting for a delivery from an online game store. So in the meantime I'll persevere with Dreamfall. Who knows, I may even learn how to use a computer......:P

An old girl like you? Not a chance!!

Thaurin

07-12-2007, 01:19 AM

I thought this was an excellent game, and just hate to hear bad things to be said about it.

Yes. Yes! And I think this very thing here is the source of many frustrations and anger on this and other forums. People take these things personal because the story or characters touched them personally. They were able to identify with them, or whatever, so whenever someone slams such a game, by association they feel personally attacked. Which of course isn't true.

I installed it 3 weeks ago, and still havent played past the first day yet because I got so put off by the controls, even though I really want to play it because the story looks great.

I don't remember if Grim Fandango supported gamepads natively, but I'm guessing from your troubles it does not. However, most gamepads will come with a tool with which you can configure your gamepad to emulate the mouse and keyboard. That way you can essentially play every game out there with the gamepad, because the game will just think it's getting keyboard/mouse input. It takes a bit of time to set up, but it's worth it.

nl4m

07-12-2007, 04:48 AM

All this talk about Dreamfall and I can't believe that no one has said anything about the soundtrack. Hands down it is the 2nd best game soundtrack ever Made. The first being Sonic Adventure for the Dreamcast. There was this song, I seem to have forgotten it's name. Yes, I remember. The name of the song was "Be with you", it's great. I think they play it at the end when the credits roll.

WARNING: SPOILER !!!
Full text:
I'm so excited I just can't sleep.
I'm soo delighted we should finally meet.
I always had a feeling you would show and leave me here in your after glow.
Just so I can be with you.
To now know how it feels for me.
To live like you do, and to die like you do.
I wanna be with you.
So I know how it feels for me.
To live like you do, darling please let me be with you, please let me be with you.
This is not the time nor place for patience.
This can't be started or stopped.
Inter planets focus of a drive (?) and I feel my sense come alive.
Like anybody, i'm a virgin, on my way to be with you.
To know how it feels for me.
To live like you do, and to die like you do.
Yeah I wanna be with you.
So I know how it feels to live like you do, so please let me be with you, yeah please let me be with you. Please let me be with you.

For the record:

The game was so confusing to me that I don't know whose good and whose bad. The cops (government soldiers), good or bad ? The people that locked Helena, good or bad ? Why was Helena working with Reza and giving him "sentitive information" if she is evil ?

You (and others) seemed to have missed a few obvious points in the story.

First, she had lost her motivations in life and this adventure was a kick start for her.

I got the point of the story. The whole thing about being desperate was a joke.

Second, how callous does one need to be to abandon a boyfriend who seems to be in trouble?

At the beginning of the game it don't seem that way. The only thing we know is that she broke up with her boyfriend. She shows that she is still in love him by inviting him to the party. He comes out as a user, sending her out to do the work for him. On top of that she does it without saying a word. On top of that he sent her to do a dangerous job that could have even gotten Him killed. Way to show you care :)

Oh, they will have to make her a part of the next story, just like April was in Dreamfall. I liked Zoe better than April, anyway.

I liked April more. She came out like a warrior.

And some of it was absolutely intentional, because the story goes on.

That's what made me mad. I was expecting a little more of the story to be revealed. The only game I know that revealed even less is Shenmue (1 and 2).

Risingson

07-12-2007, 06:11 AM

Ok, now that everything's solved with Thermal... am I the only one here that thinks that Gamepads are a thing from hell, a device just made to make you unconfortable?

And don't start making silly asumptions about my hands. I play guitar, piano, and have an experience of 25 years with computers too. And people like my massages.

Thaurin

07-12-2007, 07:06 AM

I liked April more. She came out like a warrior.

But she was so annoying at the start of the game! Her voice was whiny and tried too hard to be a girl, or something. With the whole best friends thing going on and whatever. Bah!

What was great was how she started to see things coming through from the other world. That was awesome.

ozzie

07-12-2007, 07:34 AM

I'm not sure why you would need a gamepad, especially why you should buy one for CRYING OUT LOUD!!
Outcast, from 1999, has a similar control scheme, but a much better executed one.
For example, you could move the camera, while centered on the character, entirely free. You could pan around him and zoom out.
In contrast, Dreamfall was sometimes oddly restricted, like, that you couldn't look up (when you use Dreamview, for example in the Tree city, you can see why: there's nothing there, the tree is cut off, it has no top).
When I started to play it the controls really felt awkward. I first had to tweak the setting so the controls where somehow bearable.
Still, I don't have them good in mind.

MasterLoo

07-12-2007, 08:40 AM

Ok, now that everything's solved with Thermal... am I the only one here that thinks that Gamepads are a thing from hell, a device just made to make you unconfortable?

I feel the exact same way. It always occured strange to me to use a keyboard and a mouse for everything else you do on the computer, and then pull out a gamepad when you want to play a game(which I usually disconnect anyway, because I never find a place to put them when I'm not using them). Especially when it has been proven again and again that it is possible to make a keyboard/mouse control configuration which both feels comfortable and is usable.

If I want to play games with a gamepad, I can always get a console. I have tried gamepads, and I never feel I got the same control over the character with a gamepad as I do with a keyboard and a mouse. People are different that way, but most people who prefer a gamepad will go for a console anyway. At least all the friends I got who prefer gamepads, ended up getting a console instead of a PC for playing games.

I'm not sure why you would need a gamepad, especially why you should buy one for CRYING OUT LOUD!!
Outcast, from 1999, has a similar control scheme, but a much better executed one.
For example, you could move the camera, while centered on the character, entirely free. You could pan around him and zoom out.
In contrast, Dreamfall was sometimes oddly restricted, like, that you couldn't look up (when you use Dreamview, for example in the Tree city, you can see why: there's nothing there, the tree is cut off, it has no top).
When I started to play it the controls really felt awkward. I first had to tweak the setting so the controls where somehow bearable.
Still, I don't have them good in mind.

Carmageddon from 1997 had something similar. You would drive the car with the numpad(in these days it could be wise to replace that with the WASD keys) and you could move the camera with the direction keys(left, right, up, down). There also were a key for changing the cam view, where you could pick between a number of different directions to see from. It wouldn't be too hard to make the controls work better in Dreamfall. For the record, I really enjoyed the game and I've finished it, but it always felt a bit weird for me to move the cam with the mouse, when you did practically everything else with the keyboard.

Risingson

07-12-2007, 08:46 AM

I'm not sure why you would need a gamepad, especially why you should buy one for CRYING OUT LOUD!!
Outcast, from 1999, has a similar control scheme, but a much better executed one.
Well, say Kotor, say Anachronox, say Vampire:Bloodlines, say a lot of examples where the thing feels much less quirky than in Dreamfall...

Kolzig

07-12-2007, 01:36 PM

Ohh ohhh, always so much talk about Dreamfall at AG forums and I STILL CAN'T participate in these conversations... damnation...

I should really make myself some free time to play it. The demo last year was awesome in every way possible for me. :)

nl4m

07-12-2007, 01:37 PM

But she was so annoying at the start of the game! Her voice was whiny and tried too hard to be a girl, or something. With the whole best friends thing going on and whatever. Bah!

What was great was how she started to see things coming through from the other world. That was awesome.

April is really cool. At the end, though, she - and the rest of her team, including Zoe - come out looking very stupid.

Do you remember the part where Zoe finds the White Dragon ? And she sends her to Aprils hide out ? When Zoe gets there she sees a flair going off (shot in the air). She says to herself "Someone is starting a celebration". Then you see April talking to her "general". He's telling her how "power and secure" his protection system is. That his alarm will tell them 2 hours before the enemy comes by. Another flair goes off. This time April And the general are asking themselves "whose celebrating". Finally Alvanay comes and see another flair go off and says "That must be a worning signal". He was the only one to get the message. Even the gerenal (who made the system) forgot how it works. One minute later the place is under attack :) Hahahah... That was sooo stupid :) Aside from this, April was cool.

smulan

07-12-2007, 02:19 PM

Dreamfall is one of the best adventuregames there is. Many people claim that you should play it with a gamepad, I myself played it with keyboard and mouse and it worked fine for me, choose whatever is most comfortable for you. And Enjoy the game, don't bother the Lucasfanboys.

maladroid

07-12-2007, 03:07 PM

And Enjoy the game, don't bother the Lucasfanboys.

Oh but they liked it too. :D

And they didn't have to resort to gamepad-worshiping, either (not saying that it's bad advice, mind you).

tabacco

07-12-2007, 04:48 PM

And Enjoy the game, don't bother the Lucasfanboys.

Let's keep the name calling and bad feelings out of this thread, okay? I'm sorry some people didn't like the game, I'm glad others of you did. No reason to insult one another. I really don't want to see any more of it.

Nelza

07-12-2007, 05:00 PM

Would a PS3 controller work with the PC? What would I need to buy to link it to the PC?

I feel like I should play Dreamfall with a controller as it seems very similar to Broken Sword 3 which I played on PS2.

tabacco

07-12-2007, 05:03 PM

Looks like the PS3 wired controllers also use USB connectors, so it's entirely possible if you can find the drivers.

Edit: Just found this thread. No guarantees, try it at your own risk :)
http://www.dcemu.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=45209

Nelza

07-12-2007, 05:11 PM

Thanks tobacco! I'll try it when I get home from work. :)

Thaurin

07-12-2007, 11:15 PM

Hmmm, I really can't remember the story of Dreamfall that well. I should replay it soon...

Oh, and all hail the Great Gamepad in the Sky!

Risingson

07-13-2007, 12:14 AM

Thaurin

07-13-2007, 01:04 AM

As I said, sometimes someone talking crap about a story that deeply touched you is like someone insulting someone you deeply love. We get defensive and feel the need to step up to the plate to protect their good name.

noknowncure

07-13-2007, 04:37 AM

But equally someone talking rubbish about a game that deeply annoyed you makes you feel frustrated and want to redress the balance by pointing out its many flaws.

It's 'orses fer courses innit.

Rattsukrabe

07-13-2007, 07:07 AM

Melanie68

07-13-2007, 07:12 AM

If a game offers gamepad support (like Dreamfall, Broken Sword 3, Shadow of Destiny), it'll allow you to assign keys to different functions. I'm not sure if it's explicitly stated if a game has gamepad support but you can always ask before you buy. :)

I haven't tried it yet, but I think you can use the software to set up profiles for a game.

samIamsad

07-13-2007, 07:24 AM

I feel the exact same way. It always occured strange to me to use a keyboard and a mouse for everything else you do on the computer, and then pull out a gamepad when you want to play a game(which I usually disconnect anyway, because I never find a place to put them when I'm not using them). Especially when it has been proven again and again that it is possible to make a keyboard/mouse control configuration which both feels comfortable and is usable.

I find it rather amusing that people find it amusing to play games with a device solely created with these games in mind rather than.. er, those who weren't, you know. I grew up during the home computer era, plenty joysticks were a given for anyone, and it's funny to see how perceptions have changed throughout the years. That's not a rant, just an interesting observation.

That said, to demand that a specific input device should work fluid and ace with any game design is folly. Gamepads are just that.. an input device that many games are being primarily designed for. So are mice and keyboard, while we're at it. Some food for thought: There's more than just gamepads. And they're not CONSOLE™ either. As said, they're input devices created with gaming in mind, no more, no less.

Um, for some reasons I've still yet to play Dreamfall actually. ;)

Bagpuss

07-13-2007, 09:21 AM

I never used my joystick. I think I found it easier to have separate hands for left/right and up/down. Doesn't tend to work like that these days though.

crabapple

07-13-2007, 11:39 AM

OK, so I'm going to display my ignorance. I did not even know that you could use a gamepad with a PC. So I've learned something. But can anyone tell me how it works? Can you program it to work with any PC game? A game will assign certain functions to various keys and the mouse. Can you then program a specific button to be the equivalent of, say, the "A" key? What are the limitations? I would hate to buy one of those trinkets only to find that it won't work with the games I would like to use it with. I'm sorry if this seems like a stupid question, but I don't know how to get the information without asking.
Someone gave me this link
http://www.pinnaclegameprofiler.com/

I haven't used the software, but it looks like you can use it to program most key layouts the way you want. What I'm not seeing there are sensitivity controls for the joysticks, which would have been useful with Dreamfall, especially for aiming that cone thing.

Most gamepads come with their own configuration software, but if you buy a cheap one or a used one it may not. XP has its own gamepad drivers, but if you want to change key arrangements and a game doesn't allow you to customize, the XP drivers aren't going to be enough.

Rattsukrabe

07-13-2007, 12:01 PM

Thanks, Melanie and crabapple. That gives me a good idea how to investigate the question before I buy. Obviously, there is a difference of opinion as to how useful gamepads are. Probably great with some games and not so with others.

Terramax

07-13-2007, 02:10 PM

But I seem to remember this game getting rave reviews and high praise. Of course, one can argue about the state of the game reviewing industry all day long, but still no game will get universally good reviews without a certain level of quality and polish. Was it different from its prequel? Hell, yes! But can you say that it was a bad game because of it? I think that really depends on who's saying it.

For example, I hated April in The Longest Journey. I didn't feel anything but resentment for her. I thought the game dragged and harped on unexciting premises on numerous occasions. The puzzles were much more intricate, and if you want that and only that, Dreamfall will fall short. But why does every adventure game have to be frustratingly hard? On story and characterization I still feel Dreamfall delivered. You disagree and that's fine.

Hey Thaurin, I think you're the first person to have actually sold this game to me. This comment reminds me of another game that got slammed for having too many cutscenes and not enough freedom - Sword of Berzerk: Gut's Rage on the Dreamcast.

With Gut's Rage, I enjoyed the cutscenes because the story was interesting, unlike a good number of adventures that rely on stories that turn out rubbish *cough cough The Longest Journey cough* whilst many slammed both Gut's Rage and Dreamfall for sticking too much to story and not enough gameplay.

I hate TLJ and April with a passion. Hate isn't a strong enough word. But now I'm finally tempted to take the wrapping off of my copy and give this a go in the hope that if I can't enjoy this for a game, I can enjoy it at least for a good story as I did Gut's Rage.

P.S. I think I understood your original comment about 'natural'. The way I got it, it was like a person used to writting right handed having to write with their left hand.

Anyway, might final check this game out now.

Thaurin

07-13-2007, 03:13 PM

Yes, just to chime in: some games have joystick/gamepad support, which will mean that they work with a joystick/gamepad out of the box. No configuration needed (unless you want to, within the game's configuration). Then you have software that is shipped with most (decent) gamepads that allow you to map keys to gamepad buttons, and emulate the mouse using the analogue sticks. This way, with some configuration on your part, you can essentially play every game using a gamepad. Now, not all games are going to be comfortable with it, primarily those that rely on a lot of precise mouse functions, but it IS possible. You will be able to steer the mouse pointer with your analogue sticks and set any button to cursor keys or any other key, as long as you have buttons to spare. And then most software will allow you to set a "shift" button so you can configure even more buttons.

And samIamsad: you said exactly what I wanted to say, so I don't have to say it again. :) A gamepad is just that, a device. Just like a keyboard or mouse, it's just that they don't come standard with a newly bought PC and the Windows operating system probably isn't very user friendly if operated by a gamepad. But games? Well, sometimes they're great with it. ;)

Not consoles only! (I come from the Commodore 64 joystick era myself :))

Terramax: Thanks, now I feel that I did at least some good in this thread. :) You alone can judge if you find the game entertaining. I can only say that there are different types of games and unfortunately, some things that some people will like in the prequel are not present in the sequel. That's why I mostly try to see each instalment of a game as something separate. And hey, sometimes I like being taken by the hand and through a story without hard puzzles to distract me. So sue me.

Let me know what you thought of it!

After a brisk nap

07-13-2007, 03:51 PM

Someone gave me this link
http://www.pinnaclegameprofiler.com/

I haven't used the software, but it looks like you can use it to program most key layouts the way you want. What I'm not seeing there are sensitivity controls for the joysticks, which would have been useful with Dreamfall, especially for aiming that cone thing.

Most gamepads come with their own configuration software, but if you buy a cheap one or a used one it may not. XP has its own gamepad drivers, but if you want to change key arrangements and a game doesn't allow you to customize, the XP drivers aren't going to be enough.You don't need to pay for an application to map gamepad buttons to the keyboard: JoyToKey (http://www.electracode.com/4/joy2key/JoyToKey%20English%20Version.htm) is the solution (unless your gamepad drivers come with the feature built in).

MasterLoo

07-13-2007, 05:14 PM

And samIamsad A gamepad is just that, a device. Just like a keyboard or mouse, it's just that they don't come standard with a newly bought PC and the Windows operating system probably isn't very user friendly if operated by a gamepad. But games? Well, sometimes they're great with it. ;)

Right, it's a device. Like with all devices/tools, some prefer using it, and others prefer not using it. The same is the case with practically any tool we use in our daily life. I sometimes use my keys to open packages, even they were clearly never designed for it. It's just a question of preferences, and what one has handy. Even though some will prefer to use a gamepad while playing, others will hate it like the plague. Anyway, there is a reason why gamepads doesn't come standard with PCs, while they come standard with a xbox, ps2/ps3, or any other console. The reason is because the PC was never made to be played games on. It was made for more serious stuff, and when people started making games for the PC it was natural for them to utilize what people already had attached to their computer(the keyboard and mouse), instead of forcing them to go out and buy a gamepad to be able to play the game as it was intended.

My point was that it's ok that they make games that can give a better gaming experience with a gamepad, for those who prefer playing with a gamepad, but that doesn't excuse making the game less easily playable with the device others will prefer to use when playing the game. Since most people have a keyboard and a mouse connected to their computer, but not all have a gamepad, they are either voluntary or involuntary discriminating those who prefer playing the game with a mouse and keyboard(or who doesn't own a gamepad) when they pick a pre-defined control which people will/may find irritating and annoying(which was clearly the case for the original poster).

Also, why change something which has worked well for ages? For a long time on the PC, keyboard + mouse was what the games were optimized for, and gamepad/joystick/etc... was something you could use on some games, if the game supported it. Basically keyboard + mouse was what most games were made for. But now suddenly more games are made for the console market primary, and then ported to the PC, often with poorly predefined controls. The reason of course is that they want to sell more units of the game, so they try to hit middle ground where both the PC gamer and the xbox360/ps3/ps2/xbox gamer can be happy.

But this never works, because in general the PC gamer doesn't look for the same qualities in a game as a person who primary goes for an xbox or a playsation, so the result is always that the game either sells poorly on the console market or the PC market. What was the result for Dreamfall though, is that it sold better on the PC market actually then on the console market. Funcom was expecting the other way, that it would sell best on the console market. Of course Dreamfall was optimized for the console market, and not the PC market, but apparently many PC gamers found it most enjoyable since it sold so well.

There, end of my rambling. To sum up(if you didn't want to read all above): I have no problem with gamepads nor that some people think they are better to play with then a keyboard and a mouse, but what I do have a problem with is the idea that a gamepad is the best solution for everybody on certain game, and I have a problem with that it should be ok that some games are horrible to play with a keyboard and a mouse.

Anyway, too tired for spellcheck :D

Periglo

07-13-2007, 10:15 PM

April is really cool. At the end, though, she - and the rest of her team, including Zoe - come out looking very stupid.

I had a very different interpretation of the end part of the game:

I got the impresion that the flare was a traitor's sign to atract the atackers to the right spot (I don't remember why, but I think they mention such a treason.) In any case, what I'm pretty sure of is that the "three" flares are one and the same, seen from three different points of view. The whole chapter was that: the same thing from different angles (which I loved.)

samIamsad

07-13-2007, 11:03 PM

(I come from the Commodore 64 joystick era myself )

I lost count how many joystick broke when playing Decathlon (http://www.mobygames.com/game/c64/activision-decathlon). (Or Maniac Mansion, while we're at it.) :D

Since most people have a keyboard and a mouse connected to their computer, but not all have a gamepad, they are either voluntary or involuntary discriminating those who prefer playing the game with a mouse and keyboard

I fully understand, but.. DISCRIMINATING? :D I would never expect to get the most out of FIFA, Microsoft Fligh Simulator or Formula One Grand Prix and so on and so on relying on a keyboard and a mouse only, that was like the whole point.

Expecting that each and every game design would work ace with a single specific input device or set thereof is just odd. Ultimately, a keyboard isn't all *that* far off from a gamepad, but think of the following: steering wheels, light pistols, Wii®-motes... you might get the drift.

Can't say much about how Dreamfall controls with a keyboard/mouse combo, maybe the criticism is a valid one, and navigating a character in a 3d world via keyboard/mouse has been done very well countless times before. That doesn't change my assessment above, however. Some games just aren't made to work best on keyboards or mice, heck even gamepads. Or maybe not at all. That's not discrimination, it's just that game design has (thankfully) never worked that way. There's only so much you can do with each device.

the PC was never made to be played games on.

Another good point to bring up, btw. :D

MasterLoo

07-14-2007, 02:13 AM

I lost count how many joystick broke when playing Decathlon (http://www.mobygames.com/game/c64/activision-decathlon). (Or Maniac Mansion, while we're at it.) :D

Ugh. Many C64 games were real joystick killers. I still remember those summer/winter games, where you had events where you had to pull the joystick back and forth for the entire event - the most perfect way to destroy a joystick. I was very happy when I played Fahrenheit, and discovered they had brought new life into this old tradition of ruining devices :P. If anybody doesn't know what I'm talking about, there are a number of places during Fahrenheit where you have to push first to the left, then to the right, and the faster you do it the bigger the chance is you are able to do something before you die/get caught. Of course, this can't be good for any device you use the play the game :) But it is fun to do - especially for young boys who just hit puberty...

I fully understand, but.. DISCRIMINATING? :D I would never expect to get the most out of FIFA, Microsoft Fligh Simulator or Formula One Grand Prix and so on and so on relying on a keyboard and a mouse only, that was like the whole point.

That's right. I forgot about those :P When it comes to those games, a keyboard and mouse can be a bit tedious. I remember FIFA '96 came with the Gravis Gamepad, free of charge. It was actually pretty great to play with a gamepad. I still got the gamepad lying around - too bad it has too few buttons for you to play most modern games. It looks like the old SNES control.

Perhaps discriminating was not a fitting word; I was a little upset after fighting through Escape from Monkey Island with a keyboard(stop bouncing off those darn walls!) and I wish they had at least removed some of the most obviously annoying parts of playing that game with a keyboard. With dreamfall, I really like the story and it reminds me of a quality movie. Also, I was more annoyed with the controls in Escape from Monkey Island than I ever was annoyed with the control in Dreamfall. It took some getting used to, but the cave in the beginning - where you don't do much beside playing with the controls, was enough to get used to them.

Terramax

07-14-2007, 02:23 AM

the PC was never made to be played games on.

That may have been true 15-20 years ago but not the case in this day and age.

Microsoft deliberately make their new games only Windows Vista compatible because they know the importance of the gaming community as part of their business. That's why Mr. Gates invested in the console race.
No major company gets far without covering as much ground in their selected industry, no matter how niche (not that games are niche now).

Hell! Even certain laptops are created with specifically powerful modifications so we can play games out and about.

Point and click, keyboard or gamepad, they're all just choices. There's no art or deeper logic. Just like some prefer automatic cars to gears.

I use a gamepad for Broken Sword 3 and GTA but use keyboard and mouse for Max Payne. I think it's worth everyone owning one but not to use religiously.

Risingson

07-14-2007, 02:32 AM

That may have been true 15-20 years ago but not the case in this day and age.

That isn't true even 20 years ago, and not to say 15 (do we all remember when the first Monkey Island was made?). Other thing is that you don't KNOW or REMEMBER games made for PC, but games have always been part of it.

MasterLoo

07-14-2007, 02:53 AM

Let me put another way then. The reason why people got a computer originally(back when they bought their first computer) was not to play games on it. But the reason why people got a playstation or an xbox was certainly not to surf the Internet and write essays for school. The reason for C64 major popularity was because it was a computer. In the commercial they said - why buy something else for your kids, when you can get a computer? - a computer, which they can use for school work and other productive things.

So yeah, games were not an original part of the reason why people got a computer. Thus the games adapted to the controls of the computer, when people started making games for the computer. Since most computers didn't come with gamepads - since it was meant to be done productive stuff on - the games counted on the user playing with a mouse and keyboard. But of course, today games are a big part of what the PC is. Still, I'm sure most people think of doing more productive things with their PC when they buy it - at least if one is not a hard core gamer who just wants the hotest PC to play games only on. But no xbox or playstation user thinks: Hmm... will this help me do my school work more efficient? before they buy a xbox 360 or a playstation 3.

stepurhan

07-14-2007, 03:58 AM

The reason for C64 major popularity was because it was a computer. In the commercial they said - why buy something else for your kids, when you can get a computer? - a computer, which they can use for school work and other productive things.

So yeah, games were not an original part of the reason why people got a computer. Thus the games adapted to the controls of the computer, when people started making games for the computer.
The C64 came with two joystick ports (and usually bundled with at least one joystick to plug into one.) I've yet to hear of someone writing an essay with a joystick. :P

Of course, being a concientious sort of C64 owner I had GEOS (Graphic Environment Operating System) which was sort of an early windows pre-cursor with a bundle of applications built in (Word Processor, Graphic Program, etc) so I didn't just use it to play games. I used it to make fan art about games as well. :D (I did type a university essay up on it once)

Thaurin

07-14-2007, 04:13 AM

Oh, I disagree. The reason that the Commodore 64 was so popular was exactly games. I don't think there was ever anyone that did some serious office work on it. :P (We'll make an exception for stepurhan's essay :P) We had an accounting package and some sort of desktop publishing software. They worked horribly, of course. :) I think that anybody involved in the C64 back in those days was involved in games in some way.

Games existed before the major consoles. Of course, there were "consoles" before that and sure, they were meant for one thing only, games. But I don't see how a device that can do more than one thing is not suited for one of the things it was designed for. I mean, did anyone ever use the joystick port of the C64 for anything else than... joysticks?

I'm not saying that developers are free to neglect keyboard/mouse in their games and there sure are games with horrible keyboard/mouse controls, but mostly these games have been rushed out due to whatever reasons. I do not subscribe to the school of thought that there's a giant conspiracy going on and all PC games are being dumbed down because they want more $$$$$ and design for consoles. If a company wants to put out a good game, they will deliver on any platform. Sometimes something just goes wrong, financially or contractually, and the end result is lacking.

Finally, I do believe that the Dreamfall controls are adequate, judging from those people who are fine with them. Grim Fandango and Escape From Monkey Island were worse, though. But they were 100% PC games, no consoles involved (as far as I know). No game should ask you to hold the movement key down if you have to walk long distances. Way to build up Repetitive Strain Injury!

stepurhan

07-14-2007, 04:16 AM

Of course, there were "consoles" before that and sure, they were meant for one thing only, games.
An early game console. :D (http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=2&c=738)

nl4m

07-14-2007, 04:19 AM

I got the impresion that the flare was a traitor's sign to atract the atackers to the right spot (I don't remember why, but I think they mention such a treason.)

I don't know. The only traitor I can think of is Naya (sp ?). The girl that helped Alvanay (sp?) find April.

In any case, what I'm pretty sure of is that the "three" flares are one and the same, seen from three different points of view.

I think there were at least 2 that went off. 1 while April was talking to the general. And the other while April was waiting for Alvanay.

Thaurin

07-14-2007, 05:23 AM

An early game console. :D (http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=2&c=738)

Ohmygod, I think you just identified the ancient console that we had but which I had forgotten the name of!! We have a cartridge that had about 20 variations of Pong, we had Chess (with no board, only moves shown) and that's as far as my memory goes. :)

I tend to agree with Periglo about the traitor thing. I makes more sense. An alarm system that fires flares? I also seem to remember something about a traitor. Besides, it's much cooler that way. :)

MasterLoo

07-14-2007, 05:59 AM

Oh, I disagree. The reason that the Commodore 64 was so popular was exactly games.

Really, I thought it was because the commodore was cheaper than any other computer at the time, and they marketed it as an affordable alternative to the other computers, where you could learn something about computers as well as play games. Also, you could plug it right into the TV, so then people didn't have to spend extra money on an expensive monitor.

Commodore VIC 20 commercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKcmBmZbbno

Thaurin

07-14-2007, 08:20 AM

It might just as well have been due to those factors, but in the end I believe that most people just used the C64 for games, which was my point. :) And the whole games industry flourished because of it, especially the cracking scene. ;)

Even the cartridge slot on the back had it use mostly in gaming, I believe. Well, you had the Final Cartridge and the Power Cartridge and such, but other than that. Memories. :)

Christian IV

07-14-2007, 08:53 AM

While Dreamfall remains one of my greatest disappointments in recent game devel, it is am amazing forum topic :)

Great discussion about platforms and controls, both will keep evolving and so will the literature, i just hope that developers do not follow Micro's lead with their lame attempt to force acceptance of Vista, and other companies to force acceptance of consoles. Neither will ever be part of my game research for many reasons, and I think there are other gamers like me. Hopefully there will remain strong support for classic PC gaming, one can hope.

Great topic. :)

Thaurin

07-14-2007, 09:37 AM

I just don't understand this. You can have a preference for PC any time you want, but statements like "I will never touch a console/gamepad/device even if my life depended on it" just baffle me. If goes beyond mere preference. There is a deep-seeded hatred for these things which I don't grasp. I myself have never owned a console (well, other than that '78 gaming monstrosity ;)), but do I curse their existence? Why should I? I think they did the gaming community good, not bad. I am always suspicious of people that talk about any specific thing in this way. It borders on fanboyism and whatever the opposite of that it.

stepurhan

07-14-2007, 12:57 PM

Commodore VIC 20 commercial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKcmBmZbbno
I found the most interesting thing about that advert was that they still said about games first. It was a games machine that could also teach you about computing, not a computing machine you could also play games on.
I just don't understand this. You can have a preference for PC any time you want, but statements like "I will never touch a console/gamepad/device even if my life depended on it" just baffle me.that isn't quite what Christian IV said. He actually said (my emboldening)
i just hope that developers do not follow Micro's lead with their lame attempt to force acceptance of Vista, and other companies to force acceptance of consoles. Neither will ever be part of my game research for many reasonsSpeaking personally I will never own a conventional console becuase, though I've tried several times to use them, I just don't like gamepads. I find the joysticks too fiddly for a start. This is not a case of I picked one up once, struggled with the joysticks and gave up. I've tried several times on various different games and I just can't control a game that way. This is a perfectly valid reason for saying I'll never use a console (though I might if my life depended on it. Bit overdramatic that)

The Wii (with it's Wiimote controller) might be an option for me because it involves holding something and physically moving my arm (both of which I'm prettty sure I can do :D ) but as long as conventional consoles have gamepad based controls I won't use them.

I would be interested to know what Christian IV's reasons are as well though.

Thaurin

07-14-2007, 03:32 PM

Yeah, me too! But seriously, I'm intrigued by the whole console thing, even if I've never owned one. I've played them, of course, and the style of playing is completely different. That's the thing here.

When you play a console, you're usually on the couch relaxing, while the stereotype PC gamer is hunched over his keyboard, "stressing out". Now, of course that's not always true and there are wireless keyboards and stuff, but there's no denying that playing a game on a console is a different experience than on the PC.

That may or may not be to your taste, but that should be the end of it. I don't see how some of those console elements cannot penetrate the PC gaming market, yes even with some "additional" devices like a gamepad. I mean, I hardly use my gamepad like any good little PC gamer, but it's there when it's convenient. And it's convenient sometimes to have all the controls on one small device with a lengthy cord so you can sit back a distance from the monitor.

Again, different styles for different people, but a little open-mindedness could introduce someone to a whole new world of joy. And I sometimes have the feeling that the jihad between different platforms some guys (not meaning anyone specific here) are engaged in will stop them from experiencing that, without there being any valid reasons for hating on the "other way" of doing things. What you see in the games industry with companies having exclusive versus multi-platform titles and people moaning (looking for a reason) about different things, is just an indication of this narrow-mindedness. Again, not meaning anyone specifically here, just what I see happening sometimes.

Just to be safe, I have absolutely no problem with people having valid, genuine, personal reasons for not liking any console, control mechanism, genre, product, game, film, etc. But in this age of information, it seems people forget to decide what they like best and jump on any one bandwagon that may be passing at the time.