Runaway, the Future of 2D Adventures [Archive]

The Adventurer

09-20-2003, 06:46 PM

I'm about a 3rd of the way through Runaway: A Road Adventure and I'm getting some mixed imosions. Personaly as an Adventure game Runaway is a bit weak when compared to the big guns like Monkey Island, Grim Fandango, and Zork Nemesis. It continues to fall into the trap that The Longest Journey and Syberia fell into for me. Basicly they look real good, but the interface and 70% of the puzzles are weak as hell. However Runaway has one huge thing going for it in my opinon. The Graphics show me the future potencial of 2d adventure games. 2D painted Backgrounds with 3D Cel-Shaded Characters and objects. It just meshes so well. Imagine CMI with Runaways graphics or Full Throttle. This is the kinda of style that Lucasarts and Dreamcatcher should be focusing on, not EMI style 3d or Myst Style slide shows in my opinon. While I'm finding Runaway as a game disapointing I'm seeing a TON of untaped potencial. I hope to GOD someone with more experance picks up on this and runs with it. It could be the kick in the pants 2D adventures need.

Moosferatu

09-20-2003, 07:40 PM

Are you saying that the interface of TLJ was bad?!? :eek:

TLJ's interface was one of the best ever created. It was brilliant the way that you could cycle through all of your inventory items with 10 seconds. I absolutely love its interface.

Also, I would never want to see CMI anyway than what it already is. CMI's graphics are timeless. I have never seen any games graphics stand the test of time as well as CMI's have. The game came out when? 1996 or 1997 and it still looks as good as the day it came out. I would say that Runaway is the only game that has even come close to CMI's greatness.

Finally, I am with Intrepid, 3d is the future (and it SHOULD be the present). Games like TLJ2, BS3, and URU will hopefully make this a reality.

Intrepid Homoludens

09-20-2003, 07:47 PM

Finally, I am with Intrepid, 3d is the future (and it SHOULD be the present). Games like TLJ2, BS3, and URU will hopefully make this a reality.

:eek: No no no no no!! Don't misunderstand me! I don't necessarily want 3D to be the future for adventure games, but I do want it to be a considerable part of the future for adventure games. I look forward to upcoming classic 2D games, but as it stands, even developers need to rethink how 2D adventures are done and do all they can to refine them more and more, like Benoit Sokal is doing with the Syberia series.

The Adventurer

09-20-2003, 07:49 PM

Finally, I am with Intrepid, 3d is the future (and it SHOULD be the present). Games like TLJ2, BS3, and URU will hopefully make this a reality.*gag* 3D just isn;t Organinic enough to look good. Hand Drawn art is what makes a game look great. 3D is stiff and boring. Like I was saying Runaway has graphics, with some refinments, that can bring back the glory days of 2D.

Moosferatu

09-20-2003, 07:50 PM

:eek: No no no no no!! Don't misunderstand me! I don't necessarily want 3D to be the future for adventure games, but I do want it to be a considerable part of the future for adventure games. I look forward to upcoming classic 2D games, but as it stands, even developers need to rethink how 2D adventures are done and do all they can to refine them more and more, like Benoit Sokal is doing with the Syberia series.

Whoops. :frusty:

I was thinking about that after I submitted my reply. I thought, "That thread said "The Future of 2D Adventures" and not "Adventures" didn't it?" In that case I apologize. It was my mistake.

:pan:
:crazy: (Moos)

Intrepid Homoludens

09-20-2003, 08:00 PM

*gag* 3D just isn;t Organinic enough to look good. Hand Drawn art is what makes a game look great. 3D is stiff and boring. Like I was saying Runaway has graphics, with some refinments, that can bring back the glory days of 2D.

Look, buddy, you're entitled to your opinion, but at least allow the adventure game genre to embrace all various styles of gaming experience! If it's one thing I can't stand, it's a bunch of hardcore adventure game evangelists* preaching their zealotry and in the process forgetting that there are the rest of us who actually want to experience adventure games in more ways than one!!! You're not being fair, you are being fascistic.

*(Winks at Marek)

Vel

09-20-2003, 08:11 PM

Wajus

09-20-2003, 10:27 PM

I disagree with you about the puzzles and interface, but you are right that this is the future of 2d adventures. Runaway looks ten times better than BS3 screenshots. And two dozentimes better than any other 3d adventure game.

The only full 3D game i can think of at the moment is Gabriel Knight 3. Grim Fandango, Monkey Island IV, TLJ and Syberia are all 2D backgrounds in fact with 3D characters, just like Runaway.
Personally i think that Grim Fandango looks hell lotta better than Runaway does. Especially body/skeleton language in GF is somethiong really impressive. They look like dolls (calaveras) but move and behave like people. All those little gestures are just incredible.

Anyway I think that while 3D is the future of adventure games, there's also no reason to think that there will be no place for 2D anymore. There will always be an alternative. I don't see what's the point of this discussion? Where does it lead?

2D had all the chance to prove it can be succesful. It failed todo so in mainstream sales charts but it proved it is still viable nevertheless. I think it's just about the time we are presented with some new ideas and concepts in adventure games.

And as for the Runaway's look vs BS3's screenshots it's just a matter of selection. I've recently wrote article on Broken Sword Trilogy for polish computer games magazine and was provided by THQ with some really impressive screenshots that are jus jaw dropping and could easily reverse your argument. Radiosity rocks!

Vel

09-20-2003, 10:52 PM

I simply *hate* 3d graphics because of the detail they lack. As for grim fandango etc, they use 3d prerendered backgrounds. The character lack detail, though they look stylish.

remixor

09-20-2003, 10:53 PM

I thought Runaway used 3d characters.

Wajus

09-20-2003, 11:06 PM

Maybe he hates them?

I simply *hate* 3d graphics because of the detail they lack. As for grim fandango etc, they use 3d prerendered backgrounds. The character lack detail, though they look stylish.

In this case: do you hate all that's not hand-drawn? Grim Fandango doesn't lack detail, it's 2D, just not hand drawn. The Skeletons lack detail cause they symbolize skeletons, have you ever seen those little day-of-the-dead-dolls called calaveras? And they have "detailed" animation instead - especially impressive during cut-scenes.

Henke

09-20-2003, 11:20 PM

Well I am learning to make computer graphics, mostly 3D but 2D as well. 3D is so much better in every way. 2D was better a couple of years ago because our computers weren't fast enough to handle good looking 3D. But they are now. So now there is really no reason to have 2D graphics anymore.

Eivind

09-20-2003, 11:30 PM

I thought Runaway used 3d characters.

Nah. Runaway uses pre-rendered, cel-shaded sprites. I was kinda disappointed that the 3D models weren't real-time when I played the game. Looks great, though.

Intrepid Homoludens

09-21-2003, 01:46 AM

I simply *hate* 3d graphics because of the detail they lack. As for grim fandango etc, they use 3d prerendered backgrounds. The character lack detail, though they look stylish.

http://www.gengamers.com/assets/images/autogen/a_uru-7.jpg

You were saying? :P This is a 'still' from Uru: Ages Beyond Myst, this is what many adventure games in the next few years will look like in real time 3D. In the game you'll be able to 'walk into this world', not just watch a character walking on top of a picture. I love the beautiful 2D world of Syberia, but I also love this equally. Who ever said we could choose only one?

Marek

09-21-2003, 01:49 AM

Hmmm, I'm dissapointed in you Intrepid :P That picture is far from an ideal example. You should've showed the personal island in Uru, which has a lot more detail (grass, bushes, waterfall, a little house...)

Intrepid Homoludens

09-21-2003, 01:59 AM

:( Jeezus, a mite bit high maintenance, are we? Lemme see if I can find it.

EDIT: Well, I found these for now:

http://www.gengamers.com/assets/images/uru-th9.JPG (http://www.gengamers.com/html/uru9.html) http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2003/e3/0515/pc_uruagesbeyondmyst05150100_thumb001.jpg (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/adventure/uruonlineagesbeyondmyst/screens.html?page=28)

Whoah! This one (http://www.gamekult.com/tout/jeux/images/ME0000321063) shows quite a bit of detail.

Henke

09-21-2003, 02:05 AM

You were saying? :P This is a 'still' from Uru: Ages Beyond Myst, this is what many adventure games in the next few years will look like in real time 3D. In the game you'll be able to 'walk into this world', not just watch a character walking on top of a picture. I love the beautiful 2D world of Syberia, but I also love this equally. Who ever said we could choose only one?

Oh my god. Is that really real time? :9~

But the only thing I can say that the no-sayers to 3D has a point in is that there doesn't excist an example in 3D that has a unique graphical style that older 2D adventures had (the prime example of what I mean is CMI). But I am sure such an example will come sooner or later (wait until you see my game :D ).

Intrepid Homoludens

09-21-2003, 02:17 AM

Oh my god. Is that really real time? :9~

Yes. It's in real time. As is this (http://www.gamekult.com/tout/jeux/images/ME0000321066)!!

But the only thing I can say that the no-sayers to 3D has a point in is that there doesn't excist an example in 3D that has a unique graphical style that older 2D adventures had (the prime example of what I mean is CMI). But I am sure such an example will come sooner or later (wait until you see my game :D ).

That attitude has more to do with their prejudices and nostalgic yearnings. It also means that the adventure genre does not yet have a history of and a comprehensive experience with real time 3D, which means that of course it will take a while before developers learn to express themselves with it. It's really annoying sometimes, you have to show them that it can work.

Henke

09-21-2003, 02:38 AM

That attitude has more to do with their prejudices and nostalgic yearnings. It also means that the adventure genre does not yet have a history of and a comprehensive experience with real time 3D, which means that of course it will take a while before developers learn to express themselves with it. It's really annoying sometimes, you have to show them that it can work.

Hmm I believe it's more then nostalgic reasons behind this (it is for me). Take Full Throttle, it had the feel of an adult comic in it's drawing style. CMI had a cartoon feel and the drawing style of french comics (like Tome and Janry). Day Of The Tentacle had a drawing style that was just unique (everything was drawned with a kind of weird perspective). There isn't a 3D game to date that has even tried to acomplish a thing like this. 3D graphics has more tried to look as real as possible. They more tend to strive to look flashy then to create a deep atmosphere (well Grim Fandango, Discworld Noir and EMI have tried but they are not 100% 3D). But I have some ideas to how the 3D graphics in my adventure game will look like but I haven't gotten that far with it to even want to be thinking about graphics. :D

Vel

09-21-2003, 04:18 AM

Someone post a full-res runaway screenshot and compare.

The Adventurer

09-21-2003, 05:30 AM

Henke

09-21-2003, 05:55 AM

Yes but can Myst:Uru be run on a P2 250Mhz with 64 Megs RAM? Thought not. Runaway can, and so can any and all of the big gun 2D games. Accessablitly is another point for 2D adventure games, most any computer in the past 10 years can run 2D adventure games, even Syberia, EMI, and Longest Journey require 3d Cards. Needlessly making a game 3d takes away from a large untaped audiance, the tier 2 and 3 computer users.

That was an incredibly lousy argument. Older techniques are better because then we don't have to upgrade all the time. Please. :rolleyes:

We should all still be playing pacman with two colors (great old game BTW).

Intrepid Homoludens

09-21-2003, 07:02 AM

Yep, Adventurer, that is a lousy argument. So you're saying that any adventure gamer never upgrades their computer, and they've kept the same one for 10 years? They expect to be able to install and run WinXP on a P2 250Mhz? They expect all upcoming adventure games to be exact clones of what they played to years ago? They forget that the very decision to acquire a computer entails an awareness that they must upgrade around every 3 years or so not just for gaming, but for all applications.

The fact is that most computer software are more or less synchronous with the steady progress of technology, and we all know that technology never stands still. I'm not saying that you should play a tech advanced game just for the sake of it, I'm just saying that there are great things happening for gaming, why deny any game genre the chance to take advantage of these things just because some people refuse to upgrade their computers every few years, which they're supposed to be doing anyway, why bash new things just because of sheer nostalgia? Even the introduction of the mouse had caused an uproar among the keyboard loving crowd! And don't think that I'm ignoring the most important things in an adventure game, like story and puzzles, I'm not. I am merely being realistic about how inextricably intertwined these elements are and I'd rather embrace the dynamism of it than sit around and mope, like some of us here are doing.

Like I've stated so many damn times before, I love both 2D and 3D for different reasons, but for chrissakes, give 3D a chance to at least catch up to the level of development of 2D within the adventure genre. Stop bashing it, you snobs!

Intrepid Homoludens

09-21-2003, 07:30 AM

Someone post a full-res runaway screenshot and compare.

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/screenshots/gs/news/010102/runaway_thumb025.jpg (http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/screenshots/gs/news/010102/runaway_screen025.jpg) http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2003/e3/pc_urubeyondmyst/pc_uru_thumb001.jpg (http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2003/e3/pc_urubeyondmyst/pc_uru_screen001.jpg)
Click for large.

I don't get it. What's your point, Vel? The styles are miles apart, one is a cartoon, the other is more illustration-like. Each one looks magnificent. I picked these screens randomly. What exactly are we supposed to compare?

Wajus

09-21-2003, 07:39 AM

Yes but can Myst:Uru be run on a P2 250Mhz with 64 Megs RAM? Thought not. Runaway can, and so can any and all of the big gun 2D games. Accessablitly is another point for 2D adventure games, most any computer in the past 10 years can run 2D adventure games, even Syberia, EMI, and Longest Journey require 3d Cards. Needlessly making a game 3d takes away from a large untaped audiance, the tier 2 and 3 computer users.

:rolleyes:

Oh yeah?! At least you can play Runaway. That's sooo typical of you "mid-enders". Criticizing "high-enders" while forgeting absolutely about us "lo-bottom-enders". But let me tell you something mister "250/64". For us all you with computers higher than 133 are the same snobbish high-enders!!! Long live VGA!

I love Monthy Python!!! They made it all so much easier and funnier ;)

Ariel Type

09-21-2003, 09:57 PM

I agree with The Adventurer in his first message - the graphics dominate in this game, while other components are not so good. But I don't think it's a future for adventures as, firstly, I think that developers should use 3D graphics, as it has a lot of oppotunities, though they should use it in a proper way. Secondly, in near future no publisher will want to publish a 2D adventure, so, to sell atheir product, developers will HAVE to use 3D.
Personally, I think that graphics in the game was really great, and I'd gladly see part of future adventures in this style. But...

Intrepid Homoludens

09-21-2003, 10:24 PM

....I think that developers should use 3D graphics, as it has a lot of oppotunities, though they should use it in a proper way.

Let's hope that adventure game developers will learn to really understand the properties of 3D and manipulate them to their - and our - advantage. What would be your definition of a 'proper way'? I have some ideas myself, strictly theoretical, natch, but then 3D is such an embryonically new arrival for adventure games that we gamers have seen only very little of what's possible with it. This is why we need games like BS3:TSD and Uru - to help show the way.

Secondly, in near future no publisher will want to publish a 2D adventure, so, to sell atheir product, developers will HAVE to use 3D.

I really don't want 2D to suffer, I want it to keep evolving alongside 3D. But the market demands more 3D games, I only hope that the market for 2D remains strong enough to count during the crunch. Still, the ultimate test is the overall quality of the game, and I trust many devoted adventure afficionados understand this. It's the casual gamers that will be attracted to the 3D graphics, but if the game is great then they'll stay for more.

But...

Yesssss? :D

Ariel Type

09-22-2003, 09:45 AM

Well, it's hard for me to tell now, how to use 3D in a proper way, as you said, we haven't seen many examples of such games yet. But I think freedom is one of the main things to expect. We'll see what they can do.
As for the 2D, I also hope such games will continue to appear, especially after such great experience with graphics in Runaway. But I'm afraid that developers and publishers will (and are as well) try to satisfy the largest auditory, which usually don't include interests of devoted adventures. Look what happened to Lucas Arts (still hopes for Sam & MAx 2, though), or Sierra, or Legend, or... :frown:
But there is another aspect - funmade games. The number, and especcially the quality of them is growing nowdays. Not long ago I finished Kings Quest 2 VGA and was really amased - it's just a solid adventure in a classical look, and what's best - it's near the same level as the games of big companies in the 80s-90s. Hope to see Quest for Glory VGA in the nearest future. And there are other promising projects like Kings Quest 9, Broken Sword 1.5, Indiana Jones and FOY... Hope they'll do their best.

But... *went in search for a larger market*

remixor

09-22-2003, 09:49 AM

:rolleyes:

[satire] Oh yeah?! At least you can play Runaway. That's sooo typical of you "mid-enders".

Haha, brilliant. I agree completely. My PC won't be able to play BS3, so I'll just have to get a new one. There's no reason I should expect the whole friggin adventure genre to keep itself scaled back just so certain people with older computers can play every game.

Tamara

09-22-2003, 11:27 AM

sarcasm, remi, sarcasm.

Kode

09-22-2003, 11:41 AM

I agree, to an extent, with The Adventurer on his point that 3D games aren't as good looking as 2D games. It's just an opinion. And I respect his opinion that disagrees with me.

Either way, I realize that 3D games are the games of the future, yet, I for one hope that someone somewhere will always be making good old hand-drawn 2D games :D

It's just that 3D games don't have the same level of appeal that I crave. I don't need or want my games to be "realistic." I prefer them cartoony. ;)