The obligatory Sam & Max: Situation Comedy thread! [Archive]

Kurufinwe

01-06-2007, 07:44 AM

I've just finished it, and I had a lot of fun with it. I definitely thought the writing was snappier this time, and I always found myself wanting to go on playing.

It definitely feels shorter than the first one, though I'm not sure it actually is. I think part of the feeling is due to the game's not being longer than you'd expect. I mean: in Culture Shock, you could expect to be very close to the end when you had done what seemed to be the big tasks (getting rid of the Soda Poppers), but there was actually quite a fair bit of game left after that, leaving the very positive impression that the game was not as small as you thought at first; here, on the other hand, when you've done the big tasks (getting Myra the 3 things she asks for), well, you really are at the end of the game; so maybe that's why it feels shorter.

Still, I had a blast with it, and, at the end of the day, that's what matters.

Kolzig

01-06-2007, 08:00 AM

I haven't yet bought Sam & Max Episodes, but next week I'm gonna preorder the whole season if I have the time. I'm going to London (again) next Thursday and I might not have the time to play S&M. :)

RLacey

01-06-2007, 08:26 AM

They're probably hiding a cow!

Giligan

01-06-2007, 08:42 AM

Probably going to be buying the season set over the weekend. Hopefully they'll get longer, as Culture Shock really was pretty short.

Erwin_Br

01-06-2007, 08:48 AM

I'm loving it!

--Erwin

Udvarnoky

01-06-2007, 08:58 AM

It's just as good and funny as the previous one, but.... I dunno, more tame? I mean, they didn't bop anyone in this game! It's not funny if nobody gets hurt! :P

You know, I read this criticism in Evan's review and I really don't understand it. These games are about on the level of the comics. Maybe people are remembering the comics to be more graphically violent than they were? Certainly, one the more humorous elements of Sam & Max is its more abrupt and violent gags, but in general it relies more on silliness than outright offensiveness. Also we did remember the parts where Max put a bullet in Sam's head and Max recounting his tale of beating a purse-snatcher with a parking meter?

I dunno, maybe actually seeing the characters modeled and voiced and brought to life leaves less to the imagination, but it seems pretty close to correct to me. Telltale shouldn't make Sam & Max needlessly gory for the same reason they shouldn't try to make it family friendly - neither would be being faithful to the license.

nordic_guy

01-06-2007, 09:42 AM

The first episode had the habit of frequently crashing on me, and Telltale still haven't been able to fix that bug. I've payed for the full season, but I won't play this episode until I'm sure it works like it should. Maybe I'll just wait for the disc release.

Gabe

01-06-2007, 02:03 PM

Imo thats the only full 3-d adv. works flawless,both techically and artistically outstanding.I almost fell the same Lucasart adv. heyday exciment had long years ago.Simply best adv. of 2ks.

Tanukitsune

01-06-2007, 02:16 PM

You know, I read this criticism in Evan's review and I really don't understand it. These games are about on the level of the comics. Maybe people are remembering the comics to be more graphically violent than they were? Certainly, one the more humorous elements of Sam & Max is its more abrupt and violent gags, but in general it relies more on silliness than outright offensiveness. Also we did remember the parts where Max put a bullet in Sam's head and Max recounting his tale of beating a purse-snatcher with a parking meter?

I dunno, maybe actually seeing the characters modeled and voiced and brought to life leaves less to the imagination, but it seems pretty close to correct to me. Telltale shouldn't make Sam & Max needlessly gory for the same reason they shouldn't try to make it family friendly - neither would be being faithful to the license.
Who said gory? A little bop in the head will do! :P

Jake

01-06-2007, 08:45 PM

There are explosions and tales of beating hoodlums! Is that not enough? Either way, I guarantee that episode 3 will have more on screen pummeling of thugs.

tabacco

01-06-2007, 08:47 PM

Maybe even a few goons.

D.C.

01-07-2007, 12:11 AM

My insane bitterness after the LEC sequel and Project Jane-J were canned in '04 has almost healed with these completely awesome episodic adventures. (As well as this years hopeful release of Grey Matter ;)) I've got my season pre-ordered. I enjoyed Situation: Comedy even more than Culture Shock! Keep 'em coming Telltale! :D

Some of my favourite moments:
Myra thinking a 'Ketchup Cake' is some form of innuendo - her reaction was comedy gold! Sam & Max's audition was also great and good use of existing inventory items. Bosco's accent rocked! Plus I enjoyed the seeds of a story arc form as well as exploring the studios! :D

HeinzHarald

01-07-2007, 04:24 AM

Sky Warrior Bob

01-07-2007, 10:15 AM

Played it again, and reminded myself of another thing that bugged me about this installment.

Max's angry face, it isn't right. I mean, instead of giving him an eyebrow, it looks as if the front of his head concaves in, making him look almost like a nehanderthal version of himself.

SWB

Atlantis

01-07-2007, 12:31 PM

Has this not come out in England yet?

I havent seen it anywhere. ;(

Dale Baldwin

01-07-2007, 12:37 PM

It's not available in stores. You can purchase a download from Telltale's online store. A packaged version will be made available on their site after the full season's release.

fov

01-07-2007, 04:29 PM

And I wouldn't have minded seeing a few minor tweaks to the office, just to show a slight passage of time.

Did you open the closet door? :D

jp-30

01-07-2007, 05:24 PM

I loved the internet-petition gag.

Thought there were maybe a few too many US-centric sitcom & actor name based in-jokes, which could cause a lot of the jokes to fall a bit flat outside of the USA or potentially cause this episode to show its age a bit in time.

Other than that though, top notch stuff again.

Jake

01-07-2007, 08:15 PM

If I'm not mistaken the first episode is supposed to be a bit longer than the rest. I seem to recall Telltale saying as much. Anyway I've really enjoyed both episodes. Already this good and we're only a couple of episodes into the first season!

The reality is that it's hard to know how long an episode is going to be until people sit down and play a nearly done version. It's weird. Early on in production a lot of people thought episode 2 was might end up super short and feeling very empty, but it turned out to be only moderately shorter than 1 (or for some mysterious people, the same length or longer), and feel packed full of crazy things for Sam & Max to toy with.

Lunatik

01-07-2007, 08:50 PM

I can't wait to play this, along with EP1, which I still haven't played!
Did most of you bought the whole season? Or individual episodes?

tabacco

01-07-2007, 09:07 PM

Has this not come out in England yet?

I havent seen it anywhere. ;(

http://www.telltalegames.com/store/samandmax

[/plug]

:)

Melanie68

01-07-2007, 09:10 PM

That was your 2000th post!

*throws confetti* :)

Tanukitsune

01-08-2007, 01:49 AM

NHJ

01-08-2007, 04:02 AM

I just thought they were ficticious names?

I' m fairly sure that Keanu Reeves isn't a fictitious name :)

Tanukitsune

01-08-2007, 04:18 AM

I' m fairly sure that Keanu Reeves isn't a fictitious name :)
Who's Keanu Reeves?:P

maladroid

01-08-2007, 05:34 AM

Thought there were maybe a few too many US-centric sitcom & actor name based in-jokes, which could cause a lot of the jokes to fall a bit flat outside of the USA or potentially cause this episode to show its age a bit in time.

On a related note, I couldn't shake the feeling that the verbal storms breaking between the characters were a bit more sophisticated than those of the previous episode, making the jokes in Situation: Comedy even more difficult to follow for the non-english speaking population. Smashing everything related to the American dream or the nation's way of life is part of the duo's job description, I know, as is the tendency to overcomplicate things during verbal communication. Still, I believe it could be turned down a bit without many cassualties on the joke department.

Just my two euro-cents.

Wouter

01-08-2007, 06:57 AM

On a related note, I couldn't shake the feeling that the verbal storms breaking between the characters were a bit more sophisticated than those of the previous episode, making the jokes in Situation: Comedy even more difficult to follow for the non-english speaking population. Smashing everything related to the American dream or the nation's way of life is part of the duo's job description, I know, as is the tendency to overcomplicate things during verbal communication. Still, I believe it could be turned down a bit without many cassualties on the joke department.

Just my two euro-cents.

I haven't finished episode 2 yet but i must say i felt the same. I didn't understand quite a few of the jokes because:
- english isn't my native language
- some jokes mention names and people i have never heard off which made me wonder if either i'm dumb, either those people are only famous in America or these people doesn't exist at all (which would be rather pointless).

This really is something Telltale should think about imo. Do they make a game for an American public or for the world to enjoy. I'm not familiar with the original cartoons so maybe they are actually staying true to the original but still.

I generally found the jokes in Episode 1 far more enjoyable.

Lunatik

01-08-2007, 07:55 AM

On a related note, I couldn't shake the feeling that the verbal storms breaking between the characters were a bit more sophisticated than those of the previous episode, making the jokes in Situation: Comedy even more difficult to follow for the non-english speaking population. Smashing everything related to the American dream or the nation's way of life is part of the duo's job description, I know, as is the tendency to overcomplicate things during verbal communication. Still, I believe it could be turned down a bit without many cassualties on the joke department.

Very good point. Although I haven't played the game, I remember I felt exactly that while playing the original Sam & Max Hit the Road back in 1993. But, you know, Sam & Max is an American creation after all. And I'm guessing it's not just a matter of language, perhaps it's more related to culture in general. I mean, Americans would say the same about jokes in French movies being produced here in Quebec (where I live) or in France.

HieroHero

01-08-2007, 02:32 PM

I wonder why gamespot hasn't reviewed episode 2?

jp-30

01-08-2007, 02:49 PM

- some jokes mention names and people i have never heard off which made me wonder if either i'm dumb, either those people are only famous in America or these people doesn't exist at all (which would be rather pointless).

There were a few like that for me, which is why I brought it up in the first place. Some I got, but only vaguely - I recall some awful 80s US sitcom with a (white) girl who played a robot. There was a line regarding the robot girl in the Cosby Show, which was a pretty funny melding of the two series' into one in Max's (or was it Sam's?) memory. But goodness, a lot of people around the world will have totally missed it.

Pop culture references are great, but maybe stick to the global classics as much as possible.

Panthera

01-08-2007, 04:00 PM

just bought the season set, and downloaded/installed second episode.. Trying to find out if I'm going to start it tonight, or do the smarter thing; wait to tomorrow..

Pinion

01-08-2007, 04:35 PM

I almost shot my drink out my nose on Bosco's "Pip pip, honey nut cherrio" response.

Just finished the 2nd episode also and don't see enough comments on the music...it has been really great. Good job Jared Emerson-Johnson!

the What Ho! Jolly Good! Bosco

fov

01-08-2007, 09:03 PM

I wonder why gamespot hasn't reviewed episode 2?

They're going to. In general, I think the holidays delayed some of the reviews.

Regarding the US-centric celebrities... this is interesting feedback. One question that comes up a lot is whether these games will be localized. Humor can be very hard to translate, so localizing a game like this would require a lot of work to make sure the humor (and maybe even the references) carry over.

Then again - I am American and a pop culture junkie, and even I didn't understand some of the jokes. ;)

My favorite reference in episode 2 is when Max says something about how he hasn't been so upset since they canceled My So-Called Life. This was a short-lived TV show about high school kids that happened to be on TV when I was in high school. I LOVED that show, and actually headed up letter-writing campaigns and petitions to try to prevent it from being canceled. (Didn't work.)

The line about the robotic girl in the Cosby Show is good too. :D

D.C.

01-08-2007, 10:32 PM

I've had the "My So Called Life" theme song stuck in my head for two days now. DAMN YOU MAX! :D

HieroHero

01-09-2007, 01:55 PM

my so called life was great..but I cant imagine Max watching it..unless he's a claire danes fan.. it just didn't make sense for max to say that for me..

Sky Warrior Bob

01-09-2007, 02:13 PM

Did you open the closet door? :D

One hair piece isn't nearly enough for my tastes, I want more (at least some mold on Max's experiment). Of course, I'm glad we did get to see Max's Megatron (Walther P-38).

SWB

Giligan

01-09-2007, 02:20 PM

So we finally find out that Max carries a P-38? Hmmm. always looked more like a Luger in the comics. What is Sam's gun supposed to be, though?

Gretulli

01-09-2007, 02:23 PM

Good effort, Telltale! But please stop treating us like retards and give us some challenging puzzles.

Jake

01-11-2007, 02:14 PM

Good effort, Telltale! But please stop treating us like retards and give us some challenging puzzles.

The game is for retards. And you played it! Oh man... burn!

Also, welcome to the forums Gretulli! ;)

pheeph

01-11-2007, 08:07 PM

So we finally find out that Max carries a P-38? Hmmm. always looked more like a Luger in the comics. What is Sam's gun supposed to be, though?

Actually, it IS a Luger. I can see that little cylinder thing on the top of the gun. The P-38 is somewhat derived from the Luger but doesn't have the cylinder thing. In the game, it's not that heavily rendered...

Gretulli

01-13-2007, 03:27 AM

The game is for retards. And you played it! Oh man... burn!

Also, welcome to the forums Gretulli! ;)

D'oh!

Heh! Guess I should have seen that one coming...

Anyways...

Thanks for the welcome, Jake. I used to be an active member over at the Mojo forums and on good 'ol #monkey-island back in the day. Went by the nickname Oystein (which coincidentally is my first name). Man, that's a long time ago. I suddenly feel old.

Back on topic: But seriously, I really hope Telltale will crank it up a notch puzzle-wise for the next installments. I like all the other aspects of these episodes. Get your s h i t together, Dave Grossman!

Erwin_Br

01-13-2007, 06:04 AM

Hey. I remember you.

--Erwin

HieroHero

01-13-2007, 06:03 PM

D'oh!

Heh! Guess I should have seen that one coming...

Anyways...

Thanks for the welcome, Jake. I used to be an active member over at the Mojo forums and on good 'ol #monkey-island back in the day. Went by the nickname Oystein (which coincidentally is my first name). Man, that's a long time ago. I suddenly feel old.

Back on topic: But seriously, I really hope Telltale will crank it up a notch puzzle-wise for the next installments. I like all the other aspects of these episodes. Get your s h i t together, Dave Grossman!

have you seen this thread? :D

http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1232

Gabe

01-14-2007, 09:48 AM

I think puzzles are just fine for fun as like how they supposed to be,due to epis. concept and chic.No stupid pixel hunting,no mazing,no mouse hovering etc..expecting to see hard puzzles(who doesnt like Myst style:D ) from this game nothin but nitpicking.

Ariel Type

01-14-2007, 10:16 AM

numble

01-14-2007, 11:55 AM

What puzzles me is why all the players who enjoys adventures like Syberia or Dreamfall, always conclude: "If you want hard puzzles, go play Myst". There are lots of classical inventory adventure games that involve good logic, but requires you a lot of thinking to solve puzzles. Heck, take some obvious examples, like Monkey Island, or Gabriel Knight, or the original Sam&Max for that matter. No that had puzzles. New S&M are not adventures.

Monkey Island: How many people were trying out every inventory item before they discovered that using a rubber chicken allowed you to get across the island? There was no thinking involved there, just mindless tedium.

More examples of mindless tedium in Sam and Max: Many puzzles involved trying out everything with everything, not "good logic" to me. How many people were punished for not trying to "use" everything, because it didn't occur to them that they should try to "use" a mousehole to get money? Or that you should try to "use" Max everywhere? Because if you think it's "good logic" that Max should be used as scissors or for shorting out an electrical system, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Don't even get me started on using a broken golf ball retriever with a severed hand with a magnet/cup in order to retrieve an item that isn't even on the screen...

HieroHero

01-14-2007, 01:58 PM

Melanie68

01-14-2007, 02:01 PM

I'm being kind of a spoiler tag nazi. I'm sure the vast majority of people who are playing the new Sam&Max games have played Hit The Road but I like to be on the safe side. :)

HieroHero

01-14-2007, 02:03 PM

yeah you dont wanna spoil a game that came out 14 years ago :crazy: ;)

samIamsad

01-14-2007, 02:09 PM

Do I finally get to flirt with Sybil in this one...? ;(

Melanie68

01-14-2007, 02:10 PM

yeah you dont wanna spoil a game that came out 14 years ago :crazy: ;)

Well I didn't play the game until 2006. :P

That said lets steer this conversation back towards Situation: Comedy and save the Hit The Road discussion for either an old HTR thread or start a new one. :)

numble

01-14-2007, 02:18 PM

you should have known to use max to short circuit in the tunnel of love after you used max to get the commissioners orders out of the cat.. there was an internal logic to that game that if you followed all those "Wacky puzzles" made a lot of sense and you started to play accordingly.. I miss using Max for crazy stuff.. :)

I still don't buy that... that first puzzle only encouraged you to use Max in every single hotspot, and 1 out of 50 times you are rewarded for doing it correctly. Instead of telling the player that you should use Max to interrogate suspects, which would make sense, the rest of the game told the player, "expect that you may be able to use Max at ANY time." From then on, you would go into every new scene and try to use Max with every object. If it was completely logical, even when you adjust for the "internal logic" of Sam and Max, you would know exactly when to use Max, but there was no consistency to when to use Max.

"He's not an inventory item this time," explained Grossman. "I didn't like that [in Hit the Road] you would just use him for these mundane purposes, like as a pair of scissors, when the player would probably just think to use a a pair of scissors." Grossman went on to mention that puzzle design in a Sam & Max game can be tricky because the type of solutions Sam & Max themselves generally take in the comics, which are frequently nonsensical or indirect, are not necessarily what would actually occur to a reasonable player. As such, the team felt it wise to err on the side of playability.

---
Well I didn't play the game until 2006. :P

That said lets steer this conversation back towards Situation: Comedy and save the Hit The Road discussion for either an old HTR thread or start a new one. :)

Oops. Well, hopefully, my insertion of the Dave Grossman quote somewhat qualifies as remaining on the topic of Situation: Comedy...

Ariel Type

01-14-2007, 02:40 PM

Melanie68

01-14-2007, 02:45 PM

Oops. Well, hopefully, my insertion of the Dave Grossman quote somewhat qualifies as remaining on the topic of Situation: Comedy...

'Tis alright. It's an interesting discussion. It's certainly comparing puzzle design between the older game and the new game. I just didn't want to veer off too far to just HTR (and I may have sounded too dictatorial which I don't want to be). :)

skurken

01-14-2007, 02:46 PM

I love new Sam&Max! Nice and easy, I hate being stuck on some obscure puzzle forever. Keep 'em coming Telltale :)

numble

01-14-2007, 03:14 PM

numble
The puzzles you mentioned had good logic in the context of universes they belonged to + involved a little thinking. In this case we've got clear logic, but no thinking, no need to explore the little universe fot some hints, because everything is so clear.

Eh, I'll still maintain that the puzzles I mentioned are some of the most egregious examples of obscure illogical puzzle design in such games. I will maintain that most people came to the conclusions to the puzzles I mentioned from either a walkthrough, or trying to use everything with everything.

I'll talk you through one of my examples, but it really applies to all the puzzles I mentioned.
When Sam and Max need money to spend, does it involve a little thinking to figure out that you should go back to the office and "use/pick-up" the mousehole? Or is it more reasonable to expect somebody to have stumbled upon it by using everything with everything? Nothing to do with the logic of the universe.

As a designer he started to repeat himself (collect three items/ perform three actions to get a result), while original S&M was original in every respect, and with "using Max as an inventory item" too.

And this is the same design as the major puzzle in the first act of Monkey Island, the first act of Monkey Island 2, Year 2 of Grim Fandango, and who knows how many adventure games. Go with what works, I say... and spend more time concentrating on the writing and humor. Though I will say that the Sybil puzzle in Culture Shock and the many verbal-based puzzles feel very innovative to me.

CrimsonBlue

01-14-2007, 03:45 PM

Eh, I'll still maintain that the puzzles I mentioned are some of the most egregious examples of obscure illogical puzzle design in such games. I will maintain that most people came to the conclusions to the puzzles I mentioned from either a walkthrough, or trying to use everything with everything.

I'll talk you through one of my examples, but it really applies to all the puzzles I mentioned.
When Sam and Max need money to spend, does it involve a little thinking to figure out that you should go back to the office and "use/pick-up" the mousehole? Or is it more reasonable to expect somebody to have stumbled upon it by using everything with everything? Nothing to do with the logic of the universe.

I thought that was pretty logic. You only had a few commands you could use in Sam and Max, and look only lets you, well, look. The action icon (use, pick up) works as a context sensitive icon. If you see a hole in the wall, and you're looking for clues, you put your hand in the wall to feel if there's anything of interest in there, not just look inside it - it's obviously going to be dark and you're not going to see much. It's fairly logic.

Then again, it's been a while since I played the first Sam and Max (and shamefull I haven't gotten around to ordering any of the new ones either. Only Telltale game I've played for now is the first Bone episode.

Ariel Type

01-14-2007, 03:46 PM

numble
Ok, just out of interest I installed Sam&Max and guess what? Sam says "All our money is invested in that rat hole". Now THIS is an example of great mix of humor, logic and thinknig. And that's how most of the puzzles were constructed. There were always hints, not obvious, but tricky enough to make you think and link the things.
the same design as the major puzzle in the first act of Monkey Island, the first act of Monkey Island 2, Year 2 of Grim Fandango
I know, it's one of the distinctive feautures of Lucas Arts adventures. In MI1-2 they were original. In FT or GF they occupied just one of the acts. But in Bone2 and S&M1-2 they are the whole game, because of the short length. And well, it's more of the same. I mean, they have a whole new direction. They must progress. Look at Escape from MI. It used the new possibilities of keyboard interface, the designers (btw, Sean Clark and Michael Stemmle) constructed many new, interesting puzzles, without repeating old formulas (like in Curse of MI). That's why I respect them so much and feel a little disappointed for Dave and new S&M games.. But well, better this then nothing.

Squinky

01-14-2007, 03:49 PM

Though I will say that the Sybil puzzle in Culture Shock and the many verbal-based puzzles feel very innovative to me.

I completely agree. I generally enjoy these puzzles more than the contrived inventory-based ones.

numble

01-14-2007, 04:02 PM

numble
Ok, just out of interest I installed Sam&Max and guess what? Sam says "All our money is invested in that rat hole". Now THIS is an example of great mix of humor, logic and thinknig. And that's how most of the puzzles were constructed. There were always hints, not obvious, but tricky enough to make you think and link the things.

Ah well, if that happened, then I'll give that to you. I'll still point out that you still have to pixel hunt that rat hole before you're given that hint though (I think).

Anyway, I mentioned that puzzle specifically out of personal experience, and because the rat hole puzzle is specifically mentioned in this Retronauts podcast (http://zdmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o1/Podcasts/Retronauts/102506.mp3) on Hit the Road on how unintuitive a lot of the game puzzles are. (8 minute mark is when they specifically talk about that puzzle)... They also talk about the new Sam and Max and how they would want a happy medium between the old/new in puzzles, and how hard it is to achieve such a delicate balance.

---

Summary of one of Retronauts points (http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=7563204&publicUserId=5745804) + context (http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=7563125&publicUserId=5745804).

HieroHero

01-14-2007, 06:48 PM

numble

I know, it's one of the distinctive feautures of Lucas Arts adventures. In MI1-2 they were original. In FT or GF they occupied just one of the acts. But in Bone2 and S&M1-2 they are the whole game, because of the short length. And well, it's more of the same. I mean, they have a whole new direction. They must progress. Look at Escape from MI. It used the new possibilities of keyboard interface, the designers (btw, Sean Clark and Michael Stemmle) constructed many new, interesting puzzles, without repeating old formulas (like in Curse of MI). That's why I respect them so much and feel a little disappointed for Dave and new S&M games.. But well, better this then nothing.

I agree with Ariel.. Mike Stemmle is missed on the sam and max team.

numble

01-14-2007, 08:56 PM

I know, it's one of the distinctive feautures of Lucas Arts adventures. In MI1-2 they were original. In FT or GF they occupied just one of the acts. But in Bone2 and S&M1-2 they are the whole game, because of the short length. And well, it's more of the same. I mean, they have a whole new direction. They must progress. Look at Escape from MI. It used the new possibilities of keyboard interface, the designers (btw, Sean Clark and Michael Stemmle) constructed many new, interesting puzzles, without repeating old formulas (like in Curse of MI). That's why I respect them so much and feel a little disappointed for Dave and new S&M games.. But well, better this then nothing.

Well maybe the issue is that you're just really used to such puzzle designs. You initially complained that "New S&M are not adventures," but now you're complaining that the new Sam and Max games are "repeating old formulas."

Your statement does somewhat prove that adventure gaming is a learned process--once you've played through a couple of "collect three items/perform three actions to get a result" games, it soon becomes "more of the same" and thus, easier. For the most part, asking for innovation/evolution on this path really means "make the puzzles harder," (how many people complain about things like action sequences, keyboard usage, monkey kombat, etc? Or don't even care for new things like the psychoanalysis or verbal/dialog-based puzzles? Many people who complain about easiness and ask for innovation really just want harder puzzles, IMHO) but as soon as you do that you're asked to "innovate/evolve" (read: make it harder) 5 years later. Pretty soon, the only capable adventure gamers are those that have played the previous adventure games.

To summarize, basically, yes, the "collect three items/perform three actions to get a result" puzzle design is really "more of the same" to people who have played the last 20 years worth of Lucasarts-style adventure games, but is entirely new to average gamers, most of whom have never played adventure games before.

And in my opinion, the truth is that story really overwhelms everything. Aside from 3 or 4 puzzles, Grim Fandango is really one of the easiest of the Lucasarts adventure games--it only had 3 commands, look at, pick up, and use, and no inventory combinations... yet many people say it is one of the best adventure games ever.

---

Bringing it back to Situation: Comedy land, I'll have to say that the new game is only 1/3rd of the way through, that the game designers have already said that they've planned all along to up the difficulty as the game progresses, and that it really is unfair to come to a rushed judgment on the game before it is all said and done. I think things like humor, dialog and story are fair game, since such elements have to be consistent throughout the game, but an element like difficulty, which has already been acknowledged by the developers as successively more difficult, shouldn't be judged so quickly. People don't go and judge Grim Fandango based on its much easier Year One, so by extension, people shouldn't say "New S&M are not adventures" based on the first 1/3rd of the game.

phankiejankie

01-15-2007, 02:49 AM

Here we go again, the usual "the game is not an adventure" argument. Aren't people bored of proclaiming a game an adventure or not based only on their subjective preferences. After the no game is an adventure game if it is not p&c now we are in the puzzles are not hard enough so it is not an adventure phase (see Dreamfall, now Sam n’ Max).

Anyway by me the difficulty is just right in the new Sam n’ Max series. I played the first two episodes being relaxed that I would not stuck anywhere, loosing interest on the game. The easy puzzles are a great tool in order not to break the pace which is very-very important if you want the fantastic writing to shine through.

So the core adventure gamers base needs to make up its minds of what exactly an adventure is. One day we talk about how adventures differ from other genres due to their deeper stories and dialogue based interaction and sharp writing etc. and the other day something is not an adventure not because of the story or the writing or the presentation but because of the easy puzzles. Well that makes for an easy adventure game, not a non-adventure game. Please see the new Sam n' Max series for what it is, a nice 4 hours relaxed joy ride with plenty of laughs on the way.

Combining various -irrelevant or relevant doesn’t matter- inventory items in order to solve a puzzle is not considered in my book a quality way of extending a game's life. Put more scenes, put more dialogues, put more puzzles but not that way. It’s boring and it’s an ancient practice… Kinda like cheating on the player. You know we just do not have the time or money to give you some quality gameplay so how about picking up every little thing that comes in your way (this is considered interactivity by many) and then randomly start combine items till you figure it out. We provide a nicely “clattered” inventory and you do the hard work of finding what fits with what. What do you mean you have 23 items which make up for hundred of combinations. This is a proper adventure game. Chop chop start combining…

Ariel Type

01-15-2007, 02:12 PM

numble
You initially complained that "New S&M are not adventures," but now you're complaining that the new Sam and Max games are "repeating old formulas."
Yes. But the old formulas worked in older games because you didn't have to find three items to progress. There were LOTS of things to do between those actions. And the story actually progressed. In new S&M that's all you have to do: perform several actions, collect 3 items and you are allowed to watch the final part. That's the gameplay of S&M or Bone, not a part of it. And that's why it looks so unoriginal.
S&M games are short, yes. But designers can always come up with some new challenges, as I wrote before. "Lucas-style" is not all about "3 items".
story really overwhelms everything
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Depends on the game. MI games have rather weak and cliche stories, but nevertheless, they are instant classics. And what about S&M? The original game had a very simple story, but in the new games stories are even simplier! They don't progress, nor they are original.
So, what we are left with? Humor, characters and nice animation? That doesn't make an adventure game, sorry.

phankiejankie
The easy puzzles are a great tool in order not to break the pace which is very-very important if you want the fantastic writing to shine through.
If I want fantastic writing, I'll go and read a book. If I want to see a cartoon, I''l go and see a cartoon. But if I want an adventure game, I'll go and play some adventure game. It might sound strange, but in earlier games by Lucas Arts, Sierra or Legend I often found everything - great stories, humor, characters AND puzzles. Real puzzles, not some "click here-click there". And I felt like I was playing the game, not watching some movie or reading a book. To say in your words, hard puzzles were a great tool in order not to loose interest.
One day we talk about how adventures differ from other genres due to their deeper stories
Please, can you answer my question: where did you see a "deep story" in S&M? The plots are very, very simple. Intro+outro - that's it.
Combining various -irrelevant or relevant doesn’t matter- inventory items in order to solve a puzzle is not considered in my book a quality way of extending a game's life.
You know, puzzle solving is not all about combining tons of items. Actually, this is a symptom of bad puzzle design..

D.C.

01-15-2007, 02:41 PM

http://www.telltalegames.com/samandmax/meatball

New screenshots and video for episode 3. Looks damn good!

numble

01-15-2007, 02:45 PM

One day we talk about how adventures differ from other genres due to their deeper stories

Please, can you answer my question: where did you see a "deep story" in S&M? The plots are very, very simple. Intro+outro - that's it.

Hey there, you cut off phankiejankie's quote which really said:
One day we talk about how adventures differ from other genres due to their deeper stories and dialogue based interaction and sharp writing etc.

I am not phankiejankie, but I think what phankiejankie means with "deeper story" is deeper than other games, not necessarily a "deep story." As such, Sam and Max is certainly deeper than Doom, Madden 2005, Wii Sports, Super Mario, etc.

Comedies are rarely "deep," but that does not mean that it is lacking in the story department. The major elements of story in a comedy, includes elements such as humor, writing and timing. Culture Shock just won the Gamespot award for funniest game of 2006, mostly in part because of the sharp writing and excellent timing:

Sam & Max's latest adventure might only be a few hours long, but man, they really pack in a lot of great, funny material into the first episode of the detective duo's latest set of adventures. Almost every single object in the game has at least one line of dialogue associated with it that will make you smile, if not chuckle. And what's more, the game does a pretty good job of getting the timing right. Timing's obviously a huge part of comedy, and getting it right helps send this one over the top.

Ariel Type

01-15-2007, 03:14 PM

numble
Hey there, you cut off phankiejankie's quote which really said:
He said "and..and..and..", not "or..or..", so I concluded S&M has all this components. BTW, you said almost the same thing which I quoted:
story really overwhelms everything
Where is the story in S&M and what does it overhelms? I don't argue with funny dialog lines or some great parodies, but story?..
Sam and Max is certainly deeper than Doom, Madden 2005, Wii Sports, Super Mario, etc.
Well, in this case every single adventure game is deeper then all those games )) And Mafia or Fallout is certanly deeper then S&M. What's the point?
Comedies are rarely "deep," but that does not mean that it is lacking in the story department.
Yes, comedies have some great stories. But that is not the case with S&M. The plot simply does not progress.
Culture Shock just won the Gamespot award
After the marks given to Scratches and Barrow Hill I even don't want to discuss this mainstream site and its grades..

numble

01-15-2007, 03:19 PM

Well, in this case every single adventure game is deeper then all those games )) What's the point then?

That is the point, what makes an adventure game different is that it has a "deeper story" than all other types of games in different genres.

story really overwhelms everything

What I mean by story overwhelms everything is that, in a FPS, the weapons and vehicles are really much more important than the story, fighting games are about punch/kick combos, airplane games, racing games, puzzle games, RTS, RPGs, etc are really much more about their individual gameplay elements--you want to play because you will get better weapons, tougher bosses, upgrade your weapons/engines/armor, unlock components such as racetracks, new cars, more challenging puzzles etc. But in an adventure game, the story is what makes you want to keep playing--you want to see how it unfolds.

Yes, comedies have some great stories. But that is not the case with S&M. The plot simply does not progress.

Again, I made a point awhile back saying that all we've seen is 1/3rd of the plot so far, and judging the overall plot or difficulty from 1/3rd of a game is like judging the overall plot or difficulty from Year One of Grim Fandango (and honestly, the story and difficulty does not pick up in that game until after you leave the initial city).

But more importantly, the story elements you judge in a comedy are far different from that in a drama. People will say that the writing and timing in the stories in The Office are great, and they will say that the writing and character development in the stories of The West Wing or E.R. are great, but they look at different things when judging those stories, because they approach storylines in completely different angles.

---

And back to Situation: Comedy--people play it to see the storyline and jokes--which are part and parcel of the story in comedies--unfold. I don't think that's really a stretch of the imagination. People are not playing it to seek harder and harder bosses, upgrade weapons or armor, or looking to wrack their minds to solve it or anything of that sort.

Ariel Type

01-15-2007, 03:29 PM

numble
And Mafia or Fallout are certanly deeper then S&M or most of the adventure games that came out in recent years.
Again, I made a point awhile back saying that all we've seen is 1/3rd of the plot so far
There were two different, complete plots. New plots, even if they will include characters from previous stories, will be new plots.
As for GF, even the first year introduced many subplots, characters and details. The story progressed with every step, unlike in S&M.

jp-30

01-15-2007, 03:44 PM

There were two different, complete plots. New plots, even if they will include characters from previous stories, will be new plots.
As for GF, even the first year introduced many subplots, characters and details. The story progressed with every step, unlike in S&M.

You might find this post by Jake (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13510&postcount=202) interesting.

numble

01-15-2007, 03:54 PM

And Mafia or Fallout are certanly deeper then S&M or most of the adventure games that came out in recent years.

Sure, never played them, but I'll take your word for it. I'd still say that shooting, driving or upgrading weaponry/armor/items is what motivates people to play these games.

An example, here is what I read as a feature about Mafia:
Mafia offers players the opportunity to drive a total of 51 classic cars based off real-life counterparts, in addition to another 19 bonus vehicles (including five classic racing models) available for unlocking in a new mode upon completion of the game's storyline. Unlike the Grand Theft Auto series, however, cars are introduced progressively through time in the storyline, with 1920s models available earlier on during the storyline, while newer varieties from the 1930s appear later. In addition, the players must "learn" how to steal a car by acquiring such knowledge from experts or experience, as opposed to the Grand Theft Auto series, where players are free to acquire any type of vehicle, superior or otherwise.

There were two different, complete plots. New plots, even if they will include characters from previous stories, will be new plots.
As for GF, even the first year introduced many subplots, characters and details. The story progressed with every step, unlike in S&M.

Prismatology has been around as a subplot since Episode 1, and I'm predicting that it will be a big part of the finale. There is also the whole hypnosis of celebrities angle. But regardless, I don't really understand how you can tell whether there are "subplots, characters and details" that will be further revealed in following episodes, since you don't know how the story will turn out. The idea of stolen Number Nine tickets is hinted at in Year One, but not mentioned at all again until Year Three. Besides Manny, Glottis, and a slight mention/cameo of Meche, Rubacava really feels like a whole different story from Year One, which is about Don, Domino, Eva, and Salvador.

---

Basically to summarize, since I feel I might have been a little bit incoherent--you will see that the reviews for adventure games overwhelmingly review the elements of story--setting, environment, characters, writing, jokes/humor in comedies, and plot--while reviews for other games concentrate on other aspects, such as car types, fighting moves, fight system, etc. I once did an overview of all the available reviews on Situation: Comedy, and found that story elements really were what these reviews keyed in on the most. In fact, many reviews mention puzzles and puzzle difficulty more in passing whilst they spend enormous amounts of time talking about the writing, comedy, and jokes.

Giligan

01-15-2007, 07:47 PM

Finally started playing, after several days of fighting with the installer files. So far, so good, although I'd say that Culture Shock was just a wee bit better. Graphics look improved, though, although I may be wrong about that.

Jake

01-15-2007, 09:46 PM

All of the character lighting was re-done for episode 2, so the colors, highlights and shadows on the characters pop a lot more than they did last time around. Other than that there's not a lot changed tech-wise, that I know of at least.

phankiejankie

01-15-2007, 11:59 PM

Ariel I think it’s pretty obvious that you can’t get too deep with comedy as you can with drama especially if you have a dynamic duo that consists of a Bogart dog clone and something that looks close but not quite like a rabbit. I think you agree that the main advantage of the game is the sharp writing and hilarious jokes. Out of every other reason people will choose to play the new S&M series will probably be to enjoy the two things above. We have seen so far just 2/6 of the whole plot and to quote numble there are some nice plot threads going on like prismatology, the evil hypnobears, celebrity hypnosis etc.

eriq

01-16-2007, 12:10 AM

I am patiently awaiting the full season so I can buy the lovely boxed copy! ;)

I am sweating bullets waiting though. All the new stuff looks so fun - especially the shots from episode two. And Telltale is sticking to schedule! Hooray! I love adventure games! :9~

Ariel Type

01-16-2007, 09:14 AM

numble
I'd still say that shooting, driving or upgrading weaponry/armor/items is what motivates people to play these games.
Not necessarily. The foxus on richer plot in shooters, for example, started long ago, with Half Life and such. And I'm not even talking about games like System Shock or Deus Ex that mixed lots of things, including deep stories. And if you look at console RPGs..
Prismatology has been around as a subplot since Episode 1
They might link all the subplots into one big plot, but as the seperate plots they are finished. It sounds like Batman/Superman comix, when all the villains are defeated one by one and in the final they combine their forces to fight against the hero.. Ah, well, I guess Telltale will come up with something more original, but the "one big plot" thing, imo, is not the case here..

phankiejankie
I think you agree that the main advantage of the game is the sharp writing and hilarious jokes.
Well, I sure agree with this and have fun with the games. But they are still not adventure games :P

numble

01-16-2007, 09:55 AM

numble

Not necessarily. The foxus on richer plot in shooters, for example, started long ago, with Half Life and such. And I'm not even talking about games like System Shock or Deus Ex that mixed lots of things, including deep stories. And if you look at console RPGs..

I'm not denying that--I'm just saying, most people look to the multiplayer aspects of FPS, the challenge of tougher bosses/levels and new weapons, and the fun of killing things with a gun/chainsaw/laser/BFG/rocket launcher. Honestly, Half-Life is most infamously played for it's Counterstrike mod, which is all about such things. Games can still have story, but that is not the primary motivating factor of play here. And RPGs are filled with goodies that veteran RPG players spend hours chasing after that have nothing to do with the story, but advance the armor/weaponry/magic power of the players.

Also, please explain to me how Celebrity Hypnosis, Prismatology, and Hugh Bliss are finished as separate plots.