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Adventure Game Scene of the Day - Wednesday 1 July
@Kurufinwe. There is no fresh water on the island. The player has some in a flask, the dragon has none. Salty sea water is of course not an option. Important info which Iznogood chose not to provide. I agree that it’s not a very good puzzle since you cannot be sure you’ll survive and the dragon cannot be sure you’ll die. I stumbled on the solution because I already had the flask in my inventory.
See you around, wolf. Nerissa
Or, you know, suspend your disbelief and just stick to the rules without thinking too hard about what else could happen.
On the contrary, breaking the rules is the only way to solve the puzzle.
See you around, wolf. Nerissa
@karlok, now that makes a lot more sense. If the dragon is not aware that the hero has plain water and if plain water can’t be made by mixing the water from two springs together then yes I don’t see a way for the dragon to survive but if the dragon gives water from the first spring, there’s no way to guarantee the survival of the hero.[/spoiler]
Or maybe the solution is that after drinking the glass of the dragon, the hero should drink from the first spring again then from the second spring.
So, the hero drunk from the first spring prior to drinking the water from the dragon. If the dragon gave water from the second or third spring, he is cured but if the dragon gave from the first spring, then he is still poisoned.
If he takes water from the first spring again, he is poisoned again with the first spring regardless of what the dragon gave him. Drinking water from the second spring after that cures him, so he is sure to survive.
So really, the puzzle relies on the hero having plain water while the dragon doesn’t and is not aware that plain water is available which gives an advantage bigger than having access to the 3rd spring
[/spoiler]
So really, the puzzle relies on the hero having plain water while the dragon doesn’t and is not aware that plain water is available which gives an advantage bigger than having access to the 3rd spring
That is unfortunately a false assumption.
The game makes it difficult for the protagonist to get some non-poisonous fresh water, in fact that is a whole puzzle on its own, but it doesn’t say anything about fresh water NOT being in abundance on the island or the Dragon NOT having access to it. Besides it would be outright foolish for the dragon to build its lair on an island where there is no drinking water available, and we only ever explore a very small part of the island.
You can check the actual in-game wording of the puzzle here if you wish, and that is the only information that we ever get.
@Kurufinwe
I think that you are over-thinking the whole thing.
Is it a bulletproof plan and a completely flawless logical riddle?
- Perhaps not, but you can find holes in all riddles if you look hard enough.
Is it a suitable challenging and highly entertaining puzzle in an adventure game?
- IMO absolutely!
Anyway, I’m still looking forward to reading your reasoning.
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
giom, the situation is even more complicated because the dragon has said she will eat you when she wins the challenge, so she drinks from the water you give her and then takes you with her to her lair where she will drink from the third well. So you won’t have a chance to go back to the first or second well.
iznogood, sorry but your assumption that the dragon may have access to unpoisened water high up in the mountain or elsewhere on the island is just that: an assumption. There is no well of fresh water available and using sea water is not an option. But even if the dragon had access, it would be extremely stupid for her to use fresh water in the challenge. And she doesn’t need fresh water to survive, if she is thirsty she only needs to drink from two wells.
See you around, wolf. Nerissa
giom, the situation is even more complicated because the dragon has said she will eat you when she wins the challenge, so she drinks from the water you give her and then takes you with her to her lair where she will drink from the third well. So you won’t have a chance to go back to the first or second well.
Hmm, then that puzzle could be better since there’s no way to guarantee survival of the hero and it relies on the foolishness of the dragon.
That is unfortunately a false assumption.
Besides it would be outright foolish for the dragon to build its lair on an island where there is no drinking water available
I agree with Karlok on this: Since the dragon can always drink from one of the two first springs and then from the third spring, she effectively has access to drinking water
It was a fun puzzle to play with… Kind of fun to have everybody trying to work on solutions in a thread like this 
@Kurufinwe. There is no fresh water on the island. The player has some in a flask, the dragon has none. Salty sea water is of course not an option. Important info which Iznogood chose not to provide. I agree that it’s not a very good puzzle since you cannot be sure you’ll survive and the dragon cannot be sure you’ll die. I stumbled on the solution because I already had the flask in my inventory.
That’s interesting, because [spoiler]it explains why you can be almost certain that the dragon won’t expect you to give her fresh water. So defeating her is a fair puzzle—well, a fair adventure game puzzle; within the rules of the riddle, you’re cheating (more on this below).[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Now, let’s discuss surviving. First, let’s cut through all the b.s. about antidotes and higher/lower/whatever and state the one rule: every spring counteracts the other two, but not itself. We immediately see the problem here: springs #1 and #2 are logically undistinguishable, so there’ll never be a logically-satisfying way to decide which to drink from.[/spoiler]
Let’s break things down further. What you should do depends on the dragon’s strategy. I’ll distinguish between three:
1) The humble dragon. If the dragon thinks you’ll be drinking from one of the springs, then she has to give you water from the spring you drank from, which excludes #3. She’ll pick either #1 or #2, so will you, and if you picked the same you die. It’s down to luck, with a 50% chance of survival.
2) The arrogant dragon. If she doesn’t expect you to have drunk from a spring beforehand, she can pick any spring. Once again, it’s all down to luck, with a 67% chance of survival for you.
3) The arrogant and lazy dragon. The dragon expects you to give her water from springs #1 or #2, so she’ll drink from spring #3. If she’s lazy, then maybe she’ll also pick water from that spring while she’s at it. You still have no way to decide between springs #1 and #2, but your chance of survival is 100% either way, so who cares?
As you can see, there’s never any logical way to decide with certainty what you should do, and your survival depends on luck and/or expecting your opponent to be very, very stupid. But is it a problem? Adventure games have you bend rules and take crazy chances all the time. That’s what makes them fun.
Iznogood introduced this puzzle as a riddle, i.e. a pure intellectual exercise bound by strict, idealized rules. But I don’t think that’s what it is. As a riddle, it sucks because it can’t be solved unequivocally. Maybe that’s the point: it’s not a riddle, it’s an AG puzzle about subverting an unsolvable riddle—and a pretty good AG puzzle, it seems. If you approach it with a logician’s mindset, then you quickly realise that it can’t be solved. But if you approach it with an adventure gamer’s mindset, ready to break rules and take chances, then you can work your way through it and it’s great.
And the game is probably the better for it. I’m not sure pure logic puzzles belong in adventure games (even though I tend to personally enjoy them). The joy of adventure game puzzles lies in how they push you to be creative and sometimes do the unexpected.
(One day I’ll stop being lazy and write that big essay about the nature of AG puzzles that’s been running around in my head for months—but not today!)
I agree with Karlok on this: Since the dragon can always drink from one of the two first springs and then from the third spring, she effectively has access to drinking water
By all means, if anybody wants to expands on the riddle, make your own rules, change the premises or in other ways try to improve the riddle, then fell free to do so. Just as long as you are aware that that is what you are doing, and that it is NOT a part of the riddle as it is presented in the game.
It was a fun puzzle to play with… Kind of fun to have everybody trying to work on solutions in a thread like this
Well thanks for playing.
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
3) The arrogant and lazy dragon. The dragon expects you to give her water from springs #1 or #2, so she’ll drink from spring #3. If she’s lazy, then maybe she’ll also pick water from that spring while she’s at it. You still have no way to decide between springs #1 and #2, but your chance of survival is 100% either way, so who cares?
Exactly this. The dragon has probably done this a thousand times, winning each time. There’s no reason for the dragon to assume we will cheat, and the thought of us poisoning ourselves beforehand just doesn’t enter its mind. After all, it’s sure that it will survive no matter what due to being the only one with access to the third spring. Even if you still survive after an hour, it still intends to eat you, therefore it wins regardless of whether we die or not.
“Arrogant and lazy” is what we should expect from this dragon. The perceived flawlessness of the riddle will have made sure of the dragon’s complacency.
The truth can’t hurt you, it’s just like the dark: it scares you witless but in time you see things clear and stark. - Elvis Costello
Maybe this time I can be strong, but since I know who I am, I’m probably wrong. Maybe this time I can go far, but thinking about where I’ve been ain’t helping me start. - Michael Kiwanuka
That’s interesting, because
Interesting perhaps, but also a completely false assumption that has absolutely no base in the actual game. I’m sorry to say so, but someone is feeding you false information.
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
That’s interesting, because
Interesting perhaps, but also a completely false assumption that has absolutely no base in the actual game. I’m sorry to say so, but someone is feeding you false information.
No base…? Where is the fresh water that the dragon has access to and we don’t? It’s not in the game. And your assumption that it must be there because the dragon needs fresh water is demonstrably false. Maybe she even drinks sea water.
I’ll repeat my question: What if she has? If she wants to win the challenge, it would be dumb to use it.
the dragon will always kill Freya by giving her water from the first well. If Freya has drunk nothing, bingo! If Freya has drunk water 1, she won’t get an antidote. And if Freya has drunk water 2, water 1 is no antidote.
EDIT2: Oops! I reread the thread and Kurufinwe and Giom had already said the same thing. 
See you around, wolf. Nerissa
(One day I’ll stop being lazy and write that big essay about the nature of AG puzzles that’s been running around in my head for months—but not today!)
Please do! 
See you around, wolf. Nerissa
That’s interesting, because
Interesting perhaps, but also a completely false assumption that has absolutely no base in the actual game. I’m sorry to say so, but someone is feeding you false information.
No base…? Where is the fresh water that the dragon has access to and we don’t?
It COULD be in the large parts of the Island that we can’t explore because Freja won’t go there, or there COULD be no fresh water at all, we simply don’t know either way because the game doesn’t tell anything whatsoever about it.
Despite this you try to pass on your own assumption that there is no fresh water, just because you can’t see it, like the game actually tells us so - But that is simply not the truth.
Now that is in itself excusable, because who can exactly remember all the details about a puzzle long after they played the game, unless they actually check the facts, which I did before writing this agsotd.
What is not excusable is that you falsely accuse me of deliberately hiding facts about the riddle/puzzle for those who were willing to play along, and lets face it, it is not the first false accusation you have made against me.
I thought that simply ignoring you would be enough, but that apparently doesn’t seem to be the case.
And to everybody else: I’m sorry that you had to read this, but I have simply had enough!
You have to play the game, to find out why you are playing the game! - eXistenZ
It COULD be in the large parts of the Island that we can’t explore because Freja won’t go there, or there COULD be no fresh water at all, we simply don’t know either way because the game doesn’t tell anything whatsoever about it.
Despite this you try to pass on your own assumption that there is no fresh water, just because you can’t see it, like the game actually tells us so - But that is simply not the truth.
I honestly think your brain and mine work in different ways. Seriously. Same thing happened with the infamous Dreamfall puzzle and your definition of sneaking. I was convinced then that you were trying to deny something, but I now think we were talking at cross-purposes in the same way we are now. I shouldn’t have called you disingenious, I apologize for that.
Theoretically there could be fresh water somewhere, yes you’re right. There could also be a million other things the game doesn’t tell us anything about, maybe 4, 5, 10 other antidotes. But like giom said, the solution hinges on an unsuspecting dragon who doesn’t have a clue you’re going to use plain water.
What is not excusable is that you falsely accuse me of deliberately hiding facts about the riddle/puzzle for those who were willing to play along, and lets face it, it is not the first false accusation you have made against me.
I didn’t think it fair that you didn’t mention the unpoisened water, but Sefir solved it anyway, so I was wrong.
I thought that simply ignoring you would be enough, but that apparently doesn’t seem to be the case.
Okay, I’ll try to leave you alone, although I do enjoy the discussions about puzzles.
See you around, wolf. Nerissa
Iznogoud, I’m sorry if I might have offended you in any way. I was just enjoying the discussion on the puzzle and running with it.. And I was getting excited at seeing how the puzzle could be more logical in a way…
As said, I actually had a lot of fun following this thread, it’s fun to discuss such a puzzle and analyze all the different possibilities like we did, no offense was meant….
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