Shadow of Destiny!

[fov]

i just read in the archived temp. forum that remixor FINALLY bought SoD. which means we have very little time left to torture him. of course, we can never recapture the massive thread-that-was... but there must be more to talk about!

i, for one, seem to have exhausted every cutscene there is. i've played through in chunks (most recently a few nights ago) to try to get 100% in all the chapters, but haven't been able to get 100% in any yet. i have even started stumbling onto inconsistencies in my attempts to find new scenes... for example, in chapter 6:

save miriam. then in chapter 8, after talking to hugo in the square, seek out homunculus. H talks about taking the baby, and eike says something like "did you murder mr. eckert's wife, too?" but, of course, she has not been murdered...

i was actually a bit annoyed by this, because the game has been so careful to be consistent in other places.

i also found that in chapter 6

it's possible to skip the miriam stuff altogether... just digipad back to the present after talking to franssen. however, this doesn't seem to make any difference... the conversation with eckert in chapter 7 is the same... and it seems if you return to the cold day, the miriam thing doesn't happen.

anyway, dunno if anyone else has anything more to say about this game, but after putting it aside for a few months i went back and still am not tired of it!

*D emily

ps yey! the smilies are back!

[Skinny Minnie]

Lol Em,

The SOD thread was the first one that popped into my head when I wondered what threads would be back in the "new" forum!

[Garyos]

You can always check the MASSIVe faq at gamefaq to get 100%.... I tried it out, but found out that I'd missed SOMETHING, and had no way to find out what...

I dunno if it was me or the faq, but be warned that you might find yourself tearing all your notes to shreds and jumping up and down on them out of rage, at least if you've you've gotten more than 90% total at the time.... :( :pan:

[fov]

i've skimmed the FAQs, which is how i've found some of the stuff i missed, but haven't played through with them by my side... yet. :D

i am curious though -- anyone know what you need to do to get the % registered? i mean, if i play through a new cutscene, and then i die and have to start the chapter over, does the fact that i unlocked the cutscene get recorded? how about if i play thru a new scene, save the game mid-chapter, and then exit and never continue from that chapter? or if i play chapter 7 through, save, then start chapter 7 again to try something else and play to the end... is the stuff i did the first time i played ch7 recorded?

just curious if maybe i *have* seen it all, but the game doesn't know it...

-emily

[remixor]

i just read in the archived temp. forum that remixor FINALLY bought SoD. which means we have very little time left to torture him.



:crazy: :pan: Oh man, did I miss those pans. And why the hell does the reply button quote everything? I almost spoiled months and months of avoiding spoilers in one fell swoop...

[fov]

:crazy: :pan: Oh man, did I miss those pans. And why the hell does the reply button quote everything? I almost spoiled months and months of avoiding spoilers in one fell swoop...

it only quotes everything if you hit "reply" in the bottom right corner of someone else's post. if you press "post reply" on the bottom left corner of the screen, it doesn't do that...

-emily

[remixor]

Ah, there we go. Thanks for the heads up :)

[Becky]

I happened to print up the thread right before the board went down. It's huge. I'm considering tying it up with string and using it as a doorstop.

[fov]

I happened to print up the thread right before the board went down. It's huge. I'm considering tying it up with string and using it as a doorstop.

you did?!

gawd, i'd be willing to transcribe that thing... at least the highlights... we had a lot of deep thoughts in there!

:D emily

[remixor]

I sure wouldn't mind either... Now that I actually have the game, I'm really curious to see what on earth you guys could have been talking about for so long.

[Becky]

Emily -- It's 112 pages long. If you wanted to transcribe it, you would have to be a really fast typist to get even halfway through it before wishing you'd never even seen the thing.

Are you a really fast typist?

Do you think it's right to bring back such a lengthy thread to this brand new forum?

[fov]

Are you a really fast typist?

well... yes...

i wasn't thinking of posting the *whole thing* here... but it might be nice to organize some of the philosophical / other world theory stuff.

(okay, i'll admit it... i only want to see it because if i ever (ha) go to grad school i can include SoD stuff in a thesis paper along with Pleasantville and Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead...)

:D emily

ps 112 pages long?! :eek:

[Becky]

I'll see if I can get it copied. The places in which we used spoiler tags have print that is harder to read than the standard part of the posts.

I'll also look through it and see if I could post a summary of the thread with quotes from the most interesting parts (you know, the parts I still don't understand!).

Then we can take it from there. Including my new discovery that Homunculus has red eyes because the philosopher's stone is created using sulphur.
:o :7

[fov]

Including my new discovery that Homunculus has red eyes because


the philosopher's stone is created using sulphur.

really? neat! (i thought it was

because he's the devil...)

-emily

[Becky]

Emily -- It COULD be both reasons, couldn't it? A win-win situation?

I'm curious -- there wasn't any point in the game where we saw Homunculus eat, was there? No food at his Crossroads hangout, right? I wonder what sustains his energy, other than the possible consumption of souls. Sulphur for breakfast. Quicksilver for lunch. Eike for dinner.

As per the old thread -- how about I post a summary here, print the summary off this site for my own sentimental ponderings, then send you the gargantuan original manuscript.

[fov]

becky, that's cool if you want to do that! or, i can send back the original when i'm done with it.

do you still have my address?

-emily

ps we never see H eat, but we don't see much of him either so it could be he's eating when we're not around. however... if he has trouble lifting a baby, i'd think spending an hour on his feet in the kitchen would leave him pretty winded! i wonder, though, if he gets weaker

the longer he is away from the stone. he does seem pretty strong in the ending where we see wagner summon him (D? E? i can't remember), and i always associated that to his just coming out of the stone. then he's so weak when we see him in chapter 8 after the long day... he says it's from lifting the babies... he doesn't seem weak like this in any of the other endings. could it be because in the other endings, he's made a trip back to wagner's time to get some energy, but in the A ending he's still so winded from the baby switch that he hasn't had the chance when we see him? when he pops into the present later on, he's not nearly so winded...

eike's eyes are green... so are his energy balls. in the same way, could

the philosopher's stone be like H's energy ball?

if that's the case, could it also be that

the confused H we see just after the alchemist's house explodes -- the one who stumbles on the stairs and says "who are you?" -- is actually a weakened H from some other world (a world that has nothing to do with eike) who's just made his way to the workshop so he can recharge?

[MysterD]

FOV wrote:

if that's the case, could it also be that

the confused H we see just after the alchemist's house explodes -- the one who stumbles on the stairs and says "who are you?" -- is actually a weakened H from some other world (a world that has nothing to do with eike) who's just made his way to the workshop so he can recharge?

H In A Weakened State:
If you remember, the alchemist's house explodes b/c this is caused by Dr. Wagner actually bringing H out by using The Stone.

I don't think he has met Eike yet, since he probably just met Dr. Wagner. If you don't go go with the multiple worlds theory, then you can believe that the reason H is sitting on the steps upstairs b/c he was just brought back by Dr. Wagner out of his shell byWagner using the stone.

[MysterD]

I happened to print up the thread right before the board went down. It's huge. I'm considering tying it up with string and using it as a doorstop.

That thread was HUGE.
I loved my SOD Theory thread :)

[Becky]

Emily -- I'll need your address again, but first let me get most of the original thread summary done. Even as a summary it's going to take awhile!

In regards to what has been said above:

I've always thought that Homunculus became weaker the longer he stayed out of his Crossroads "home". He recharges there. He doesn't seem weak when we first see him at the Crossroads waiting for Eike, and Eike has apparently had the stone well out of reach for centuries.

A related question would be -- when we see Homunculus exhausted from the baby switch, why doesn't he just shimmer-disappear back to the Crossroads? In the incident on the stairs, he seems to disappear against his will, as if he can't hold himself in time and space long enough to figure out who this new player (Eike) is.

This confused Homunculus has to be from a different world than the world of the shattered lab/stairs. The Homunculus of the shattered lab/stairs has been put back in the stone and Wagner has wandered off him/it in his pocket. As I recall, in the world in which Homunculus is freed, the lab does NOT explode.

The million dollar question is: why does Homunculus from one world risk his neck by trying to locate the stone in another world? If we can figure out his true motivation everything else should (mostly) fall into place.

There is a place in the original thread where Emily points out that in Chapter 8, if Eike has already given Wagner the stone, Homunculus ceases to bring Eike back to life if he later dies. If this holds, it would seem that Homunculus's goal really IS to get the stone back to Wagner at the right moment in time. We just need to figure out if that action is motivated by Homunculus's stated purpose -- to see that the Homunculus in THIS world is created/freed from the stone -- or if there's a lot more than that going on.

[Becky]

As to the powerballs, aren't they what fuels the digipad? Aren't they a lot more closely related to Homunculus than to Eike? Little bits of Hom-power distributed through the town? (Maybe locations where he's enjoyed tormenting other alchemists in the past?) They really should be red.

[Becky]

ORIGINAL THREAD SUMMARY -- Entry 1

Under the title: "Shadow Of Desinty ENDINGS***SPOILERS***

MysterD posts -- Let's discuss the endings of the SOD game, theories of the game, what endings you received, what ending is your fav., plot twists, blah blah blah, etc. etc. etc.

And use spoiler tags!

I was pretty much in shock when I found out that Eike is Dr. Wagner.

(There is a general discussion re: D is a good ending.)

Kapten Grogg -- The speculations that Time is something beyond manipulation and that Margarette was drawn to her proper era made impact on me.

Snatcher42 -- If Wagner/Eike trapped Homunculus in the past, how is he free to help Eike in the future?

MysterD -- That problem you mention above would probably have to do with something called The Many Worlds theory in the game that Homunculus (H) speaks of -- by using this theory you can say in one world H is free, but in another H is not.

Lemme quote from (Gamefaqs.com) on the Many Worlds theory:



3. What is the Many World theory?

Homunculus briefly mentions this in the game. Think of time as a river and it has many many tributaries, each branching off in different directions. Each tributary is a different timeline, where different events happened (like say Hitler winning World War 2). The example that Homunculus gives is of Eike sitting in a cafe deciding between tea and coffee. In one world, he chooses tea, in another coffee.

Each of these worlds exists, but only Eike is aware of the world he is in.

The Many Worlds theory actually cancels out the time paradox theories because there are almost infinite worlds. Let's take the Grandfather paradox as an example using the Many Worlds theory. Say I live in Universe A, and I travel back in time and kill my grandfather. By doing this I don't alter Universe A, but I create a new Universe B, where my grandfather died and I was never born, but because I was from Universe A, I still exist. However, in Universe B I do not exist. In the game this causes Eike to see the after-effects of an event he did not do. (For example, getting a note telling him to get a frying pan even though he hasn't written the note.)

fov -- This is very similar to the philosophy of Leibnitz, who said that every possible interaction between people/objects is being acted out in parallel worlds...the "perfect world" (the one we live in) is the world where the most of these interactions make sense.

...I am wondering if the blonde/freckled drunk driver (in ending C) is a "modern day" version of Hugo? They look sort of the same but not exactly....it would be cool if it were ultimately a Hugo descendant who killed Eike, even if the original Hugo had been wiped from existence.

MysterD -- According to Ending D, Eike is immortal. So, all of his deaths really aren't deaths. He really is being used by H just to make Eike's life hell of banishing him.

fov -- Overall, I am a little disturbed that

We know Homunculus swapped Margarete and Dana when they were babies, but are unable to swap them back, ending A is the closest we come to this, but I would have liked to swap them back as babies so Mr. Eckhart didn't have to live without his daughter all those years. Also creeps me out a little bit that in ending E Eike is basically flirting with his great great great great grandma...

Something I really like about this game is how the player fits into the "other worlds" theme. Eike not remembering what happens to him from one path to another (because, of course, there is only one of him) but the player does.

I'm not sure Eike is immortal. Homunculus does say that he will get the doctor's soul when the doctor dies. I think it's just eternal youth, not immortality, in which case...could it be that Homunculus is the one who put the bug in Hugo's ear to kill Eike? Because H wants revenge?

PS2 anyone else think that the Homunculus looks like a girl?

Kapten Grogg -- This is the main premise of the game: Time doesn't change. Everything fits like a puzzle.

THAT was the twist of the game to make Eike travel through time with the intention to alter, without understanding that everything that happened was meant to happen and that his own "free will" was an illusion.

Nothing's above the determined. Not even Homunculus.

pleto4-ryan -- Actually he IS a girl I think...He is a deamon-jinie so you can say he is something in the middle. As for Eike, he is not immortal, D ending he is just young forever...

MysterD -- He does look like a girl, but is always referred to as a "he". H is more like an "It"? LOL

[Becky]

ORIGINAL THREAD SUMMARY -- Entry 2

MysterD -- When Dana goes to meet Eike and show him the stone and give him his lighter, we see a man standing near the tree who is wearing glasses and looks overweight, holding a paper. That looks like Eckert? Is that him?

When Eike dies, in the view from the tree, you can quickly see the man is gone -- that is the killer, I suppose.

fov -- I think it's just a "red herring" because

Later Eckert says that pushing Eike of the tower was the *only* time he tried to kill him. Also because when Eike overhears Eckert talking to Hugo on the phone, Eckert says "he's coming over tomorrow to look at paintings," which suggests that he won't try to kill Eike until he comes over to look at the paintings. I assumed Eckert was just standing there to throw us off as to who the real killer was...when Eike gets hit in the head with the falling urn, that could have been Eckert's first attempt on Eike's life...and since it didn't actually happen that way, when Eckert says later that throwing him off the tower was his only attempt on Eike's life, he means it.

MysterD -- Come to think of it, you're right...must've been Hugo all those times. We know for sure Hugo was the one trying to burn that bar down! He was at the scene of the burning building, and he was leaving the scene when he starts the fire and Eike puts it out when you go back to before the fire began.

fov -- I find it interesting that, according to the Many World Theory, one Eike does not "remember" what another Eike has done, but the *player* does remember what both Eikes did. It kind of sets the player up as a god figure.

But once you have finished all five endings and unlock the "new chapter"

Eike does remember what happened before -- he knows to look for the stone in the cafe, etc.

This makes me think that after a certain point, Eike and the player become one.

MysterD -- I received ENDING E, which shows a paradox -- unless you think of a theory in the game.

This one even MORE so proves that the Many Worlds theory has to be true. This time around...we see Wagner want H to disappear, but H turns the tables and makes Wagner disappear...This whole thing DISPROVES the Eike being Wagner theory from Ending D. But the beauty of this all is that the Many World Theory can prove both as true: that in one universe, Eike can be Wagner and Wagner can be gone in another universe.

fov -- Did you notice Eike telling Dr. Wagner to put a pentagram on the ground? I didn't get this scene until AFTER I saw Ending D. It made me think that Eike did remember something from one of the "other worlds," if only subconsciously (otherwise how would he have known to say that to Dr. Wagner?) but it does make me wonder where the pentagram came from the first time.

Ahh, too many paradoxes! I am still so impressed with the depth of this storyline. Someone must have really thought it through.

MysterD -- About Dr. Wagner:

...I remember the scene near the bar where Homunculus did not like ONE BIT seeing that book with the pentagram...before he is poisoned, Eike reads that book on alchemy Eckert let him borrow. I bet the issue with the pentagram thingy is written somewhere in there. With this, Eike can warn Wagner to smack that pentagram on the ground.

I agree, the game was geniusly written; written such that you can put together scenes in any way almost and make them make some sense, based on what theories you want to actually believe.

Best way to go about this game, I think, is this: believe everything and accept everything you see as a single scene (same strategy I used when I watched the film Mulholland Drive and tried to make sense of that). Then, from there, you can decide what parts are a paradox and conflict with another part. Then you can take things and rule them out by disproving them with another scene or scenes that they bump heads with.

In SOD, I believe the Many Worlds theme is the universal theory to the game: without this, there'd by LOADS of paradoxes that'd make us REALLY scratch our heads. I think this theme proves just about everything to be pretty much true. With an endless number of worlds and possibilities, this speaks that each ending takes place in another plane. Anything is possible, with this theory.

There are so many paradoxes, but that Many Worlds theory can hold many of these things that were paradoxes, as no longer a paradox -- if there was just one world, things would be overwritten.

Time travelling with one world is like having a PC with one file on it to save to. Say it's Derick.doc. I began it on 2/11/2003. Now, say it's 4/11/2003. Say the PC has a restore, so I restore and revert file back to the date of 2/13/2003. Now, everything I do has changed for Derick.doc and overwote this one Derick.doc file, once I hit 4/11/2003.

With the Many Worlds/Multiuniverse Theory, time travel is interesting; it is like having a PC with one file on it. Say the file's name is Derick.doc, which I began on 2/11/2003. Say it allows for a restore file to an older date and today's date is 4/11/2003. Say I want to revert the Derick.doc file to the date of 2/13/2003. This will create another file on the machine called Derick2.doc -- like having another world. All my work from 4/11/2003 is still in existence under Derick.doc. Nothing is overwritten and nothing is lost, period.

fov -- Nice analogy with the computer file. Re H and the book: I was hoping there would be some way to use the book against H in one of the endings, but never figured out a way to do so.

MysterD -- What was interesting about Ending E was I did see the pentagram on the ground. But interestingly enough, Homunculus NEVER STEPPED ON IT...About H and the book I have no idea!...

Garyos -- I'm currently playing through the game again, to get 100%. I never really tried it as much as you guys did the first time I played it...But now I'm in the fray again!

I'm currently at about 75%, and now just have some fiddly bits left...But it's really cool to see everything this time around, it's really LOADS of different paths to go, with the small stuff. The guide at gamefaq's is extremely well-made.

And the Many Worlds theory MUST be the corect one, or the whole game is one giant paradox....

I mean, why would Hugo try to kill Eike if it weren't for him traveling in time? But Eike got the Digipad because Hugo killed Eike....Maybe someone completely different killed Eike the first time around, but that's the only way the game could NOT base itself on the MW theory....

fov -- Garyos, you bring up a good point. This is something I can never understand with time travel -- how did all this start?! The game never tells us who dropped the stone in the cafe in the first place.

Although, ending D suggests that it was Eike -- in fact, ending D is really the only ending that tells us how this whole loop started...and in the Extra Chapter you see that Eike wasn't the one who dropped the stone, because he looks for it before he leaves the cafe and it isn't there.

This makes me think that Homunculus left it there, but I haven't figure out how yet.

MysterD -- I just picked up on this:

...The Fortune Teller does hint to the Many World theory in the very beginning of the game. She says to Eike..."There are so many threads....so many tangles."

When I first saw this line, before seeing the Many Worlds theory, I did believe that she was saying that there are many possiblities based on your action. Now, I see it as ALSO pointing to the Many Worlds theory.

...About H and the Stone: H probably did drop it -- which I haven't seen; I don't even know if that is explained.

H probably was already born in another world and dropped it there so he'd be born in another world -- basing this all on the Many Worlds theory.

[Becky]

ORIGINAL THREAD SUMMARY -- Entry 3

fov -- Intereresting tidbit in the beginning....It shows H sitting around in his room, and then he sees Eike through a window. Eike has just emerged from the coffee shop and is looking around -- it looks like the scene right before he gets killed the first time. It's as if Homunculus first noticed Eike and thought: "Hey, I can get this guy to help me."

That would fit with the theory that H planted the stone in the cafe.

Becky -- I don't think that Homunculus can touch the stone.

fov -- That's an interesting point. Since Homunculus is contained within the stone, would his touching it have the same effect as Eike "running into himself"?

If you're wondering what I'm talking about, in Chapter One when you've traveled back to before the murder, try returning to the cafe and interacting with Eike sleeping at the table....)

MysterD -- Based on all of this:

Since this is confusing, I will refer to Homunculus as these two H's:

H1 = Homunculus not in the stone
H2 = Homunculus within the stone

As long as H1 didn't touch the actual H2, H should be okay -- he isn't touching himself, he is touching the STONE that surrounds H2. But, if there was a crack in the stone surrounding H2 and he touched part of the physical H2, both will cease to exist.

As for Eike touching the other Eike in the cafe, he ACTUALLY touches Eike!

I don't remember H being within the stone. I thought the stone was an ingredient needed to summon H.

Or is it explained somewhere that H lives within the stone?

fov -- H's connection to the stone is explained somewhere...don't want to give it away if you haven't seen that bit yet. I think it mostly comes out in ending A, but also is alluded to in ending D (you might not have gotten the reference the first time you saw ending D, but it has to do with how homunculus first greets Dr. Wagner when he's first "created"

Becky -- What happens in one of the extra endings is what makes me think that Homunculus can't touch the stone. Also, I think that Homunculus takes the risk of using Eike as an agent to travel through time because he (Homunculus) needs someone who can actually handle the stone to get it to Wagner. I think H1 is actually from a separate timeline or another world. The world of the game is the world of H2, in which Wagner is granted eternal youth and Homunculus is trapped in the stone. Could Wagner/Eike have been carrying the stone for centuries but not realize it because of the memory spell?

In the very beginning sequence, Homunculus seems to be waiting for Eike. I think in his "first" conversation with Eike he actually says that he's been waiting to see him again.

Eike and H1's first meeting seems to be on the stairs above the ruined lab when Homunculus says to Eike; "Who are you?" The troublesome thing, of course, is that Eike couldn't have been traveling in time without the digipad, and he couldn't have acquired the digipad without first meeting Homunculus. This paradox I haven't figured out yet.

MysterD -- My answer to that paradox makes it no longer a paradox.

...it is no longer a paradox if you believe in multiple worlds. I do, because it proves most paradoxes can be possible, since multiple Eikes, H's and characters can enter a world....hence the sequence when Eike travels to the cafe that belongs to the timeframe when Eike's head is on the table; just don't touch him, or you will both cease to exist!

I try to look at [apparently conflicting] scenes independently -- especially when you travel from world to world. Because if you believe there's multiple worlds, then that means you could be traveling from one world to another world and not really know that you've traveled to another world.

fov -- To expand upon the Multiple Worlds theory just a little -- in school, I learned about the philosophy of Leibniz. He called every physical thing in the world a "monad." Monads interact with each other, and there are an infinite possible number of interactions. Some of these interactions "make sense" (based on our version of reality) and other interactions don't. We live in the "most perfect world" -- the world where the most interactions make sense.

Say the phone is a monad and I am a monad. In one world, the phone rings, and I answer it. (This is the world we live in, because the interaction between me and the phone makes sense.) In another world, I answer the phone and then it rings. In another, I answer the phone but it never rings. These are less perfect worlds, because the interactions are flawed. Since there are an infinite number of possibilities, there are an infinite number of worlds.

I see the multiple worlds theory as an offshoot of this -- as Eike changes his destiny, he is traveling across different worlds. All of the outcomes (and all the combinations of interactions) were "possible" to begin with, because all possible interactions already exist in the infinite worlds. Eike is just traveling across the worlds as he experiments with the different possible outcomes....

Becky, you might be right about there being Homunculuses(?) from two different worlds. What I find intersting about H's "Who are you?" is that he seems much...younger, and more bewildered, than we see him anywhere else in the game.

If we're to believe that Eike ran into the alchemists house AFTER what we saw in the endings, I don't believe that H would react that way to seeing Eike. H seemed to be manipulative and in control when we saw him in the lab, but then timid and shaky on the stairs. That's what makes me think H1 has sent Eike out to create H2.

Becky -- I was thinking of time as a river -- with a main branch off of which events or decisions (coffee or tea) split into different streams. Therefore, if you change something back in history along the main branch, all the streams/worlds off that branch will be affected.

But the Many Worlds/Monads theory seems to be taking the river and infinitely duplicating it -- not just the streams at the moment of decision, but all history that came before. So that if you change something along the main branch in Timespace/World 1, you would not necesarily create a change at that particular point in Timespace/World2.

I still think that:

there isn't yet an adequate explanation for why Homunculus ever, in any timespace/world, would decide to set this entire chain of events in motion. Hugo only threatens Homunculus's existence if time-traveling Eike shows up in the first place. In SOME world, SOME Homunculus has to make a mistake that sets both Eike and Hugo time-traveling.

Original Thread -- Entry 3 ends here

[MysterD]

i have even started stumbling onto inconsistencies in my attempts to find new scenes... for example, in chapter 6:

save miriam. then in chapter 8, after talking to hugo in the square, seek out homunculus. H talks about taking the baby, and eike says something like "did you murder mr. eckert's wife, too?" but, of course, she has not been murdered...

i was actually a bit annoyed by this, because the game has been so careful to be consistent in other places.

Maybe Eike was messing with H, since H has been using Eike throughout the entire game. ;)

But yes -- I think Konami goofed. :)

[MysterD]

As to the powerballs, aren't they what fuels the digipad? Aren't they a lot more closely related to Homunculus than to Eike? Little bits of Hom-power distributed through the town? (Maybe locations where he's enjoyed tormenting other alchemists in the past?) They really should be red.

Well, here's the interesting part; the powerballs are just potent energy floating around to activtate the digipad.

I don't know if Eike can literally SEE the energy; one can't see an atom, can they? But we know it's there.

I think Eike senses the energy, so he sees this energy as he wishes. ;)

Okie, enough of my BS to try and explain something that was just put there for probably reasons of "gameplay." :)

Were the powerballs ever mentioned in the game? Or just in the manual (on PDF file format) and the slip of paper that came in the box?

[Becky]

I don't remember if they were mentioned in the game. You're right, Eike doesn't seem to be aware of their presence.

The only place I could think of them being mentioned is the chapter where Homunculus throws Eike back in time with an empty digipad and tells him to figure things out on his own. I'm too lazy at the moment to go back and trigger the scene and see if Homunculus actually mentions the power balls.

[Becky]

ORIGINAL THREAD SUMMARY -- Entry 4

MysterD -- I got ending A. Wow...that definitely was the best ending of the bunch. Everything made so much sense.

Ending A and B talk: I have 91% on Epilogue -- I never took the other "B" path...To get the other "B" path, do you just speak to H in 1980 and then bring him back to Hugo? Or is there more?

When I got my first "B" path, all I did was speak to Fortuneteller. Then went back to Hug.

To get A, I found H. Then, I saw when I teleported back I was near Helena, so I walked in -- thinking that might get me other "B" path but in fact, that takes you to ending A!

EXTRA Chapter Talk: The music before you select if you want to "Start" or "Continue" is different. Cool.

Also, I told H "Am I dead again?" And then I said, "Oh, Homunculus"

This is weird...It's as if now the player and Eike become ONE. I saved right after I left the cafe -- that was cool how Eike was looking under the table for the Stone and Dana gave him a a weird look.

I'm going to have to run through this NEW game!

fov -- I like the A ending best, although I wish Eike could have switched the babies back. It's good that Eckert adopted Margarete, but would have been better if he'd had her around for the last 20 yars. H said that he brought baby Dana to the 80s, and I ran around for awhile trying to find her...oh well.

The extra chapter is neat, but you don't get to play through the whole game that way (too bad). It kind of breaks down the "fourth wall" between Eike and the player, which is neat. I like the idea of games that are aware of themselves as games. (I wrote a whole long paper in college about plays that have characters who are aware that they're acting in plays.)

I am interested to hear what you think of the final movie. I read a walkthrough yesterday that had a very different take on it than I had.

I still only have like 74% on the epilogue, which is weird, because I have seen all the endings (that I know of). Maybe since I didn't save my data, it didn't calculate my seeing the ending into the results? I don't know. I don't have 100% in any of the chapters yet.

MysterD -- My ? of the Extra Chapter endings:

Eike at both EX endings says he's "free of regrets." What the hell? Did Eike just join God? Go to Heaven? Or does it all start over again?

fov -- Here's my take on the EX endings: in both caes, I thought Eike was happy because he stopped the cycle.

What I didn't get was why both endings had the same movie.

It made sense to me that we'd see what we saw after Helena was cured -- because Hugo would then go on to have kids, and that's who Eike was interacting with at the end. But I thought, when he tossed the stone at Homunculus, he effectively killed himself, because he's now dead and H can't bring him back...so I was surprised to see that ending movie.

(The scene with H did support the theory that H can't touch the stone for the same reasons that Eike can't touch his sleeping self, though.)

Here's the explanation I read in a walkthrough (that makes sense...sorta)

Who we see in the ending movie isn't actually Eike. He seems younger than Eike (I didn't think so, but I guess the different clothes do make him look younger, plus he's friends with those guys that he wasn't friends with during the game). It could be a descendant of Dr. Wagner and Helena's. In which case, the Hugo kid who hits him with the ball would be his relative...which he doesn't seem to be, from the way they interact.

As for regrets, I think he just means now that he's vanquished H, he doesn't regret anything else that he's done...I really liked being able to cure Helena. I would have liked to see Dana again at the end, though. In fact I would have liked it if halting the cycle prevented Dana and Margarete from having been switched.

MysterD -- This [interpretation] makes sense -- that who we see is not Eike. The clothes are different. And we never hear this "Eike" speak, either...he does rub [the Hugo kid's] head and pat it...I interpreted this that they knew each other, from that pat. You don't do that with a kid you DON'T know.

Becky -- In the extra ending where you save Helena, I think it would make sense if right after Helena drinks the elixir we see Margaret fade away and Dana appear -- by using the stone to save Helana, doesn't that mean that the baby switch never happened? And Eike's fading away in this ending I thought meant that he had, by allowing the stone to be destroyed, essentially erased his existence as Eike in this particular timespace/world. Then the stuff about no regrets makes no sense because I don't see how he is even around as a voice to be expressing such thoughts.

What Eike says about no regrets I think makes better sense with the other extra ending.

Eike destroys Homunculus so Homunculus's power fades. There is nothing to hold Eike in Homunculus's realm anymore. In this ending, as Eike fades out of the realm, I picture him appearing again in the square. Then the "no regrets" thing makes sense because he knows the people he meets are continuing on in their own worlds. Does this mean he has really overcome the original memory-wipe spell and he remembers all the endings? Or do the Extra endings feed only off of Ending C where Eike dies again in order to start the game again?

MysterD -- Ending B, second time around:

...Even though in this ending H speaks of switching the babies, sometimes you want more proof than from H's own mouth; the horse's mouth.

What I really liked was it hinted more at the truth of Ending A -- that Dana and Margarete were switched, when Eckert said Dana would look like Margaret.

Plus, Dana does look a lot like Eike, anyways: blonde hair, similar color eyes.

It makes sense that Margarete is really Dana. Plus, I like to think that too -- since Ending A rocked.

fov -- In ending E, did you notice how alike Dana and Hugo look? There were some points where I couldn't tell them apart.

Becky, interesting question about Ending C. I did wonder, as I started the EX chapter, how did we wind up here? Even after hearing the Many Worlds theory, it was hard for me to accept that the game was starting over again, after I'd seen all those endings.

Interesting thing about Ending C, it's the only one that doesn't roll the credits afterwards (all the other endings do). Could it be because that ending is supposed to lead into the EX chapters?

Original Thread -- Entry 4 ends here

[Becky]

Okay, I've been thinking about the power balls some more. I agree with MysterD that they were probably just put there for reasons of gameplay and were not meant to tie closely into the actual plot. Despite that, how about more wild speculation that: the power balls are energy sources placed there by the same alchemist that originally created the philosopher's stone. These energy sources are very similar to Homunculus's power (similar enough to power the digipad) but their funciton is to keep Homunculus (should he ever be freed from the stone) IN the town -- he can move in time, but only limitedly in space.

Homunculus is so weak that he risks letting Eike use these energy sources to fuel the digipad (maybe he even thinks he's being clever). But contact with these sources is part of what helps Eike negate Homunculus's memory-wipe spell and get himself into the Extra Endings.

[fov]

the energy balls are mentioned in the game, and eike does know that he needs them. in chapter 3:

When Eike questions H's powers, H sends eike back to the day that Dana was born... without any power crystals. after the cutscene the digipad glows but eike isn't able to use it. he says something like "i *had* something before... what was it?" then he has to find a powerball before he's able to get back to the present.

so, in this case H. uses the power crystals (and his ability to take them away) as a way of demonstrating his superiority...

-emily

ps i take back what i said about hugo and the freckled guy from ending C being the same person. there's a cutscene in hugo's time that shows him being taunted by the freckled guy.

[MysterD]

I don't remember if they were mentioned in the game. You're right, Eike doesn't seem to be aware of their presence.

The only place I could think of them being mentioned is the chapter where Homunculus throws Eike back in time with an empty digipad and tells him to figure things out on his own. I'm too lazy at the moment to go back and trigger the scene and see if Homunculus actually mentions the power balls.

Come to think of it, I think you're right -- I think H alludes to it, but doesn't mention the powerballs. That is right after you and H get into a discussion at The Brum Library or whatever it is.

[MysterD]

the energy balls are mentioned in the game, and eike does know that he needs them. in chapter 3:

When Eike questions H's powers, H sends eike back to the day that Dana was born... without any power crystals. after the cutscene the digipad glows but eike isn't able to use it. he says something like "i *had* something before... what was it?" then he has to find a powerball before he's able to get back to the present.

so, in this case H. uses the power crystals (and his ability to take them away) as a way of demonstrating his superiority...

-emily

ps i take back what i said about hugo and the freckled guy from ending C being the same person. there's a cutscene in hugo's time that shows him being taunted by the freckled guy.


Ooooh....I forgot about that.

Yuh, I think that Eike does know they exist now....

[Becky]

ps i take back what i said about hugo and the freckled guy from ending C being the same person. there's a cutscene in hugo's time that shows him being taunted by the freckled guy.

Yes, descendents do seem to be identical to their ancestors in this town. Maybe they've perfected cloning instead of the standard method of reproduction.

[Becky]

Is anybody else having trouble with page 2 loading slowly? Have I overdone the proliferation of spoiler tags on the page?

[fov]

Yes, descendents do seem to be identical to their ancestors in this town. Maybe they've perfected cloning instead of the standard method of reproduction.

i read something funny in a review... the reviewer attributed them "clones" to laziness on the part of the developers!

personally, i thought it was neat... i liked the reincarnation and repetition that the "clones" suggested. adds another dimension to the Other Worlds theory... not only are there multiple universes where different stories are unfolding, but the same story (with variations) also unfolds in different timeperiods...

sorry, i hadn't noticed above that the question was whether H. ever mentions the energy balls. i don't think he does. which makes chapter 3 interesting in that it ties eike (the main character... but also the player's portal to the gameworld) to the game manual (which only exists in our world, outside of the gameworld). eike is aware of the energy balls but doens't really understand them... when he picks them up, we don't see a cutscene the way we do when he acquires other items. it's almost as if in chapter 3 eike gets *this close* to realizing he's a character in a video game... but he never actually makes the connection. the only other place he seems to realize who he really is is in the EX ending, when he's able to remember things across "other worlds"...

-emily

ps becky, the page is loading fine for me. and great job with the summaries! thank you!

[MysterD]

Are you saying that in the EX Ending....

When we see Eike die after saving Dr Wagner's wife, his soul reincarnates into the other Eike's body into anothe world?

It could make sense, by the final lines where it says on scene
"Start a new life....wihtout regrets"

[fov]

I was really confused by the EX ending. I read in a walkthrough that

in the EX ending Eike is younger (as you can tell from his clothes), so it's obviously not the same Eike.

it didn't seem this way to me. but the EX ending is different from what we've come to believe, in that

eike is friends with the two guys who run him down in the C ending... as far as we know, in the "worlds" we've played, eike wasn't friends with those guys, nor did he even know them...

so maybe eike has reincarnated into another eike in another world? OR, maybe the eike we see in the EX ending is

a descendant of helena and wagner/eike

which is why he looks like "our" eike, and why he could only come into being after things have been resolved in the EX ending.

??

-emily

[Becky]

Not just clones, but also reincarnates?

In a few more generations, some reincarnate of Dana will find the stone in the tree and give it to her father and the whole process starts over again, ending again in Humunculus being put back in the stone? Interesting idea.

If the town is stuck in this loop, I can see why Homunculus really might get desperate enough to try to break the cycle by letting Eike travel in time. He might become frustrated enough to put a version of Wagner (Eike) on the scene where Wagner/Eike's never been before and then wait to see what happens.

I wonder what happens when a stranger wanders into town. Is that a threat to the perfect gene pool?

:frusty: This is a stranger trying to get in through the city gate. They won't let him in because they don't want generations of yellow, bodiless neighbors.

[Becky]

ORIGINAL THREAD SUMMARY -- Entry 5

MysterD -- What is everybody's fav. ending in SOD?
Fav. death?
Fav. character?

Becky -- Fav death -- the tower. It was eerie standing there knowing that someone was about to come up from behind....
Fav character -- Homunculus. Fortune Teller a close second.
Fav ending -- D was most spectacular.

MysterD -- Fav. death(s) I really liked the poison death and the tower death. The poison was just a nasty way to die.

The tower death made me cringe and go "Damn!" It was indeed eerie and well done.

My favorite character(s) Homunculus stole the show. That was my fav. character PERIOD. For females, I loved Margarete since the start.

My favorite ending Ending A. Since I first met Margarete, I wanted Eike to end up with her.

In a close second, I really loved the ending where Hugo is killed in the house his mother Helena's spirit is stuck in.

Most shocking moment Eike is Wagner -- Ending D. Never saw it coming.

Becky -- Most shocking moment: When the identity of the murderer is revealed. I wonder how many people guessed the truth beforehand.

fov -- My fav. death was the tower. I really liked that you had to go back to the 1900s for the rope, because otherwise it was too old.

Fav ending were ends A and D. A best but D is a close second.

Favorite character was Dana. I just thought she was spunky...and cute! I wish she were in the game more.

Biggest surprise for me was that Dana and Margarete had been switched at birth.

I really liked how details from the different endings started coming together after you learned that....

MysterD -- Murderer -- I never wouldn't guessed of all people it was Hugo. It was hinted in the chapter in which he is caught starting the fire. If you pay attention to the clothes of the person running off -- even if it's very very very brief.

Plus, he is who is whining to have his grandpa saved in the fire -- twist is, how many paid much attention to the whining kid?

fov -- actually, I did pay attention to the whining kid...when I first met Hugo, I thought the kid at the fire must have been his descendant.

Here's a question about the poison -- who do you think poisoned Eike? The arm we see is wearing a white shirt -- so it's not the pink sleeved girl walking down the stairs -- is it Hugo? Or Mr. Eckert? And regardless, how could one of them have sneaked in and put the poison in the food without the bar guy or the pink-sleeved girl noticing/bumping into him?

And another question about the events leading up to endings A-D -- What has Margarete been doing in the present while Hugo is running around trying to kill Eike? In most of the endings, they both traveled back to "the night before" together -- where is she during the fire?

MysterD -- If you pay attention, it looks like the arm could have come from OVER the railing. In other words, he wasn't going up or down the stairs.

And I think it was Hugo, for that matter -- since he wore white and since Eckert only tried to kill Eike off the tower, according to Eckert's speech before Chapter 8 begins.

fov -- I was thinking that (spoilers about pretty much every death) Eckert says the tower was his only attempt, it means it was the only attempt he remembers, because some of the other attempts Eike was able to avoid by changing history. When Eike says "did you stab me too?" Eckert says "no" -- and since the (second) stabbing did happen, but was blocked by the steel plate, that must have been Hugo.

I guess the poison is another time that the event itself didn't change, but Eike found a way to protect himself. I'm still not sure about Chapter 2 though -- I guess that could have been Eckert since he was standing right next to the tree. In Chapter 3 it's Eckert who drops the vase on Eike's head -- but I'm not sure if that was an accident or on purpose. And who's driving the car in Chapter 6? Where did Hugo learn to drive?

MysterD -- Eckert would only be after Eike once Hugo began blackmailing Eckert -- I don't think that began really 'til Chapter 7.

I think Eckert was there [at the Chapter 2 death by the tree] to throw us off. I think Hugo did it -- guy moves too quick off the tree to be Eckert.

[Chapter 6 death]...how hard is it for [Hugo] to learn to drive? I mean, you hit the gas and go if you gonna' run someone over! Hugo would pick it up quickly, if he could build something such as a time machine...Plus, whoever drove it drove it uncontrollably and like a maniac.

fov -- Eckert would only be after Eike once Hugo began blackmailing Eckert -- I don't think that began really 'til Chapter 7.

Hmm. I had been thinking that ever since the game started for us, the blackmail had been in place. That Eckert called Eike over to the museum at the beginning because he had already spoken with Hugo, and that his first attempt on Eike's life would be during the day, when Eike came over to look at the paintings.

It's a paradox though -- blackmail can't happen until after we've played through Chapter Five, but the whole day (all the killings, I mean) is set in motion by Hugo being in the present, which means that Hugo already has traveled forward in time (to the day before), which means he has already spoken to Eckert...

I have wondered all along: when Eike finds Hugo's time machine, why can't he go back to the day that Hugo went back to? Then he could stop the whole cycle by preventing Hugo from starting the killing. (Or is it because Homunculus controls the digipad, that Homunculus didn't want Eike going back to the day before the present because it could prevent delivery of the philosopher's stone?)

Becky -- The poisoner had to be Hugo because the poison was only available in the past -- the antidote was also only available in the past. After watching the poisoning about four times, it looked to me like the arm came THROUGH the railing and the bar tender/owner was distracted at the moment by the woman in pink and didn't see it done.

I've been wondering -- how does the Fortune Teller always know the fatal hour?

Also, Was Dana fated to find the stone? The stone stays in her possession for almost the entire game. We even see her holding it in the painting. And in the Extra ending when Eike remembers that he SHOULD have the stone, Dana still manages to have stumbled across it!

If Dana is fated to find the stone, then the baby switch actually shot Homunculus in the foot because it removed the stone's discoverer from the time period where the stone was able to free him.

MysterD -- About Poison: Yeah -- it had to be Hugo...Eike got the antidote from the era Hugo lived in -- he got it from Margarete.

About the Driver -- I agree. That had to be Hugo...And from that reaction of Franssen, it looks like Franssen reacted as if the person STOLE his car.

I've been wondering -- how does the Fortune Teller always know the fatal hour?

She called Ms. Cleo. :D

Original Thread -- Entry 5 ends here

[fov]

:frusty: This is a stranger trying to get in through the city gate. They won't let him in because they don't want generations of yellow, bodiless neighbors.

LOL!!

you bring up an interesting point. why do we keep seeing the same people over and over? you'd think at some point, freckled guy or overalls guy or SOMEONE would leave town, or someone new might move in. is the idea that the same people keep getting mixed up in each other's lives throughout the generations? (i.e., some people might enter and leave, but fransen, eike, eckert, etc. are destined to keep bumping into each other?)

and if you believe ending D...

why has eike been wandering around this town for 500 years? it's not like it's that big... why hasn't he moved on?

is something keeping him there? he's carrying the stone and the stone can't be taken too far from its source of power/origin, maybe?

how about this -- CAN people enter or leave this town?

there is a twilight zone episode where some guy keeps trying to leave town and he can't. at the end of the episode the camera pans out and you see he's actually in a cage... being kept as a pet by some aliens (or something). there's a similar premise in tierra's king's quest 2 remake... at the end, you learn that (WARNING - KQ2+ SPOILER FOLLOWS!)

the tower realm where valanice is being held is actually contained within a "snow globe" inside hagatha's cave

similarly, could the Shadow of Destiny town be

contained within some kind of field in H.'s realm? maybe on one of the bookshelves?

i'm only half joking... it's odd to me that the town is so self contained, and the townspeople seem to know nothing of the outside world...

the only mention of the outside world comes in some of the endings, when

hugo mentions that his time machine is parked outside the town limits, so no one would get suspicious

i remember that seeming very strange to me when he said it... possibly because until that point, i'd been led to believe that there wasn't anything outside the town limits?

hmm... i like the idea that the same scenario is being played through over and over, throughout time, in an attempt to finally get it right... and that that scenario is physicially contained in one distinct place...

-emily

[Becky]

Hey Emily -- you might want to make the King's Quest 2 spoiler a bit more obvious that it's a big KQ2 spoiler. I was so used to thinking: SOD spoilers that I read it before I realized what it really was.

oops! Forgot my own spoiler tags:I think Eike DID leave the town for all those centuries. I think that's why Homunculus looks so excited when he finally does show up in the square at the beginning of the game. Notice that H turns sharply BEFORE he actually sees Eike -- I think he senses the presence of the stone, rather than first recognizing Eike.

If Hugo can park his time machine outside the town -- and he brought Margaret with him in certain scenarios -- then both of them can get outside the city limits. Maybe everyone CAN leave -- they just somehow rarely choose to. Except H, that is. If H could leave he would have pursued Eike outside the town centuries ago.

And I think the stone does somehow continue to exert an influence over Eike even though he is unaware of it. It's TRYING to get back to its owner. (Sorry, couldn't resist that.)

[Becky]

The town on a shelf is an intriguing idea. Especially since we've been flirting with the opposite idea -- that H's realm might be contained within the stone -- this comes up later in the original thread.

Maybe the things in H's crossroads realm are symbolic of the things within his control -- time (the clock); technology (the digipad); culture (the books, the sculpture and column); the town (the door entrance entwined in the tree?). It's too bad that his influence is so deadly -- most of the things in his realm seem broken!

I like the idea of the town isolated, repeating the same scenario over and over through several generations until somebody finally gets it right (the destruction in the Extra endings of H1 and H2).

[fov]

Hey Emily -- you might want to make the King's Quest 2 spoiler a bit more obvious that it's a big KQ2 spoiler. I was so used to thinking: SOD spoilers that I read it before I realized what it really was.

ackkk! i'm so sorry! i thought it was obvious but it wasn't. i hope i didn't ruin anything for you!

good point about H's reaction to eike at the very beginning of the game. except,

that can't be the *first* time eike's been in town in 500 years, since he and eckert already know each other. i wish we knew a little more about their relationship -- as it is, we're told eike and eckert are friends, but i don't really believe it.


Maybe the things in H's crossroads realm are symbolic of the things within his control

umbrella = the weather?!

-emily

[Becky]

umbrella = the weather?!

;) Yes, that is the logical extension, isn't it? I can't imagine what the umbrellas are there for. I associate umbrellas with two females: Mary Poppins and Amelia Peabody. Neither seems to be Homunculus's "type."

Actually, H versus Mary Poppins might be quite a showdown.

[Becky]

You are right about Eike having cooled his heels in the town for awhile. So what catches H's attention at that moment? Is it that for the first time Eike does NOT have the stone in his pocket? So bringing him into the Crossroads Realm is NOT risking the stone being so close that it could destroy H?

If that's true, why does H not notice it in the Extra Ending when Eike does finally show up in his Realm WITH the stone? H has done the chat with Eike so many times he finally got careless?

[fov]

is eike entering or leaving the coffee shop when H first sees him? if he's entering, he should still have the stone. if he's leaving, he would have dropped it already.

interesting that hugo doesn't start trying to kill eike until eike has dropped the stone. couldn't he have started a few minutes earlier and stabbed eike on his way *into* the coffee shop, and grabbed the stone then? maybe H. is manipulating hugo the same way he manipulates eike, and has somehow set it up so Hugo can only arrive after eike has dropped the stone... so that hugo has no chance to grab it? i never did buy that hugo built that time machine, all by himself, after seeing the digipad for only a minute when he was a kid... could H. have had something to do with it? possibly -- playing into Hugo's delusions of self-grandeur -- letting hugo think he built the time machine himself?

if this is the case, maybe H. is seeing eike and grinning because he realizes the scenario he set up is about to be set in motion?

-emily

[Becky]

A moment of smug self-congratulation before the battle is joined -- smoke, mirrors and script all in hand.

[Becky]

I found an interesting site devoted to Homunculus (http://www.lethe.nu/homunculus/character.html).

It contains many SOD spoilers. It's probably not a good idea to visit unless you've finished the game. It has lots of background on the Philosopher's Stone, the Faust story (which the game is loosely based on) and a description of the traditional understanding of a Homunculus. It also contains an interview with the actor who voiced Homunculus (he has previously voiced another very famous video game character -- you'll never guess who!)

Navigation is a bit unusual, but it's well worth the read.

[MysterD]

That was a cool interview.

And that even mentioned that he hoped they were working on a sequel and hoped to play H again. :)

[MysterD]

Is H Looking Into An Isolated Realm?

With all this talk of the town possibly being contained within a world, it strikes me as odd, but interesting. The opening scene, we see H looking out of a glass window -- but could he be looking into a world that is this small? Your thought on this is really interesting.

Is Eike Dreaming All Of This?
Here's a thought of mine. When Eike dies in the game's opening, he falls to the concrete ground. When he wakes up, he's in the same position. But, he's now in H's world. Could Eike be dying and seeing all of this, like what is happening (I think) in the film Mulholland Drive? Could Eike be in a coma and visioning all of this?

I theorize this b/c in dreams, everything is connected, yet fractured. For example, in real world, you know Billy. But, in the dream world, walking around in the background, is someone who looks like Billy -- but is not necessarily the same Billy you know in the real world. Or, you actually talk to this person that looks like Billy in a dream world, but this person is NOT like the Billy in the real world and could be a different person.

Let's take it further. Say Eike is visioning all of this. Could Eike dying be the meaning to the end of The EX Chapter, that Eike goes to Heaven or something?
[spoiler]

[Becky]

I read on the Homunculus site that the name of the town translates: Tree of Life. The Tree of Life is what bore the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Maybe we are seeing an intricate battle between good and evil that takes place in a fixed realm but whipsaws all over various Timespaces/Worlds. Maybe once the battle is won -- the barriers come down to the "real" world and whatever side has won goes now exists in history.

As for the It's A Dream theory -- that idea can be interesting, but it answers so much that it almost takes the fun out of it.

[MysterD]

I read on the Homunculus site that the name of the town translates: Tree of Life. The Tree of Life is what bore the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Maybe we are seeing an intricate battle between good and evil that takes place in a fixed realm but whipsaws all over various Timespaces/Worlds. Maybe once the battle is won -- the barriers come down to the "real" world and whatever side has won goes now exists in history.
That's really interesting w/ your battle theory b/t good and evil, winner comes to reality.

Really? The town name translate "Tree of Life?" What was the Town name, again?

If you remember, the timespace and worlds they jump around, they can be considered branches, since there are multiple paths and worlds; like multiple "branches" on a tree. So, maybe this whole epic saga could've been called a "Tree Of Life." :)

I think the fortune teller woman referred to these as "threads," I'm just renaming them to "branches." :)

As for the It's A Dream theory -- that idea can be interesting, but it answers so much that it almost takes the fun out of it.
The dream theory pretty much would answer everything. Maybe we need a SOD2 to answer everything we've been questioning here.

[fov]

the tree of life, eh? would that be the same tree that led to adam and eve's downfall? (i thought that was the tree of knowledge? or maybe it was the fruit of knowledge on the tree of life? gotta check my Milton...)

okay then, we've already established that H. lives in or near this tree... would he be the serpent goading eike into taking the forbidden fruit?

during the game

the tree disappears and later comes back. it didn't make sense to me that the tree came back -- unless someone else went back 500 years and reversed what eike did in chapter 2 to get rid of the tree in the first place. considering this is the ending where H. died and the digipad was destroyed, who could have done that? or maybe the idea is that you *can't* get rid of the tree of life... it always comes back, no matter what?

i don't remember the town name but i think it's written on the map.

-emily

[Becky]

The town name is Lebensbaum.

Yeah, I blew it. There were two trees. The fruit of one gave you the knowledge of good and evil. The other tree, the tree of life has fruit that brings you immortality. I guess that would fit with the Elixir of Life, which has been said to heal and also to bring immortality.

So much for my battle of good and evil! It sounded so good!

I printed up the coffee/tea conversation from the Homunculus site. Do you want it transcribed here? Let me know.

[Becky]

ORIGINAL THREAD SUMMARY -- Entry 6

Becky -- When Homunculus is first freed he says something like: "Are you my so-called master this time?" which indicates that he has been freed before and trapped back into the stone before. This would mean that the stone is ancient.

In ending A the stone ends up in the tree in the square. In the opening sequence we see H watching Eike from the tree in the square. The door to the outer world from H's realm is entwined in a tree.

I think the stone is somehow linked to the center of the town. An alchemist of Wagner's ability plus the stone nearby, perhaps buried in the very place that the worker in Wagner's time is planting the tree, Wagner's daughter a sort of magnet for the stone -- that I think was the first fated event.

Dana was fated to find the stone and Wagner was fated to release Homunculus. I also think that Homunculus's time-shifting power is restricted to events that happened in the town, and that is why he looks without success for centuries until Eike happens to wander back into town.

fov -- That's a really interesting point about the tree being a gateway. It makes a lot of sense to me.

About Homunculus's comment: When he says:Are you my so-called master this time" I actually thought it was a reference to him being a type of genie. He then goes on to ask Dr. Wagner what his wish is. I guess it could mean that H has been released from/sent back into the stone more than once, kind of like a genie that's linked to a lamp.

About the fortune teller: I also wondered how Hugo could hear his mother [before the house collapsed] since he couldn't see her. Could be that H lured him in there, but remember, when he set Helena's spirit free initially, he could hear her. I'd prefer it if it was Helena that he heard...as much as I like ending A, I was very disturbed by the way Homunculus lured Hugo off with his "father." It feels like more of a happy ending to me if Hugo dies with his mother. I just wish there was a way to keep Dana in town after that, rather than take her back. THAT would be my perfect ending!

Becky -- I'm having second thoughts about the tree. Doesn't Homunculus encourage Eike to get rid of the tree as the way to defeat the murderer in Chapter 2? If the tree is important, it doesn't make sense that Homunculus would agree to it never-having-been planted.

BTW, did you ever choose the statue and then, later in the game, go in to get a close look at it? Pretty funny.

MysterD -- ...The theory of H could lure Hugo into the old alchemists' house is interesting given what he did in "Ending A" w/ the fake "Dr. Wagner". And just like the fake Dr. Wagner, Helena does sound like a zombie, to say the least. Helena in the decrepit house doesn't sound like the same sick and emotional Helena in the bed -- she sounds, as the fortune teller, rather slow, calculated and zombie-like in her speeches throughout the game.

remixor -- Damnit, this is just the untouchable thread for me. I've not played SOD so I don't want to read any stuff that will give anything away. I'm only responding because this thread ALWAYS has the "unread" icon for me and it's driving me nuts.

That is all.

Becky -- Remixor -- frustration is good for you. It is an important part of life. I am tremendously proud of you for looking at all these spoiler tags and not peeking at a single one.

On the other hand, there is a solution to this problem. There's this online store called Amazon.com and Shadow is right there in their inventory. I believe that, in a mere 24 hours, this problem could be solved. Well, 24 hours to get the game. Then, say, 20 hours to get all the endings. More if you refuse to look at a walkthrough. Another 20 hours to get your percentages up.

See ya round about next Wednesday. You will be most welcome.

Oh, and I was thinking about the Fortune Teller's zombiesque voice and you know what? She is a disembodied undead spirit. She IS a zombie.

Poor Eike. His wife is a zombie. His son is trying to murder him. His daughter keeps stealing his most precious possession. How did he get into this mess?

fov -- ...in the beginning sequence with H, Eike thinks that Homunculus is the devil and is trying to get Eike to sell his immortal soul? I think this is exactly what did happen when Eike let H out of the stone. H even says something about it in one of the endings (D or E) and bad things happen to people who sell their souls to the devil.

P.S. remixor -- What Becky says about Amazon, is true, but I'll make it even easier for you: (lists two EB GAmes stores in Berkeley, CA).

C'mon, you know you want to....

MysterD -- The fortune teller and her voice: It sure sounds like [she is a zombie], the more I have thought about this -- the way she acts, the way she talks; the whole nine yards. The woman in bed was not a sick -- well, she was sick. I mean she wasn't deranged.

And she sounds too deranged to be her and zombiesque to even be her. I think H pulled off another one of his tricks, like he did in Ending A w/ Dr. Wagner.

Wagner wanted the Philosopher's Stone to try and create life -- and in actuality, all he did was release an evil genie. That is how he got into this mess and became Eike -- If you believe in that theory of Ending D that Eike is Wagner, that is.

remixor -- lol, thanks Becky and Emily (fov). It's not so much an availability issue -- believe it or not, I have heard of Amazon. I also know of both of those EBGames stores...there are other games I need to get first (TLJ, Syberia, etc. -- yep, I stll need to play those) that take priority over SOD. HOWEVER, I'm sure I'll get to it eventually.

Original Thread -- Entry 6 ends here

[fov]

the tree of life has fruit that brings you immortality

this still works... especially if you consider that with the many worlds theory (and the ability to prevent his own death, thanks to Homunculus), eike is essentially immortal... even if he dies in one world, there are an infiniate number of other worlds where he doesn't... isn't it possible that in one of those, he figures out how to cheat death over and over and over without the cycle ever ending?

after all,

he seems to have done okay for the last 500 years...

-emily

ps you could just provide a link to the coffee/tea conversation, if you don't want to transcribe it all here... or is it a .wav file that you got?

[Becky]

Sorry. Gotta get out of transcription mode.

(Depending on where you are in the game, the following link may provide spoilers. By Chapter 5, it technically isn't a spoiler, since you could have triggered it already if you'd done things in a certain order.)


The notorious coffee/tea Many Worlds conversation (http://www.lethe.nu/homunculus/coffeetea.html)

If the tree springs spontaneously back from some sort of immortal seed, then H isn't risking anything by encouraging Eike to stop it from being planted. Sooner or later it'll grow back anyway.

About Hugo -- I'm beginning to agree with you that H is controlling him too. If H can free all aspects of himself (including the one copy of himself that's still in the stone) and then destroy the family line of alchemists, maybe no one can ever put him back! He only seems to be able to destroy Hugo through another agent that attacks while Hugo is time traveling. (the collapsing house, the Wagner "puppet") It's also just too much of a coincidence that Hugo strikes first immediately after Eike is parted from the stone.

[Phil25]

Y'know, this is probably the deepest thread we've ever had on this forum.

[fov]

He only seems to be able to destroy Hugo through another agent that attacks while Hugo is time traveling. (the collapsing house, the Wagner "puppet")

or maybe

homunculus COULD kill hugo whenever he wants to, he just waits until after hugo and eike have done his bidding. Consider this - eike's been wandering around Tree-of-Lifeville for 500 years with the stone in his pocket the whole time. we see in Chapter 3 that eike is a logical thinker... H. needs to set up a reason for Eike to use the digipad, because he's not just going to travel back in time with the stone unless he has a good reason. So, H. gets Hugo to try to kill Eike, because that's the only thing that's going to get Eike to use the digipad. once Eike has gotten the stone to Dr. Wagner, H. doesn't need Hugo anymore... he only needs Hugo to keep trying to kill Eike long enough for Eike to use the digipad (to avoid his own death) and get the stone to Dr. Wagner. just as H. won't restore Eike's life after the stone has been returned, he also doesn't need Eike to be "killed" anymore after that point. So, now he can dispose of Hugo (or not, depending on the ending...

what i still don't get is why H. has decided that NOW is the time to set this plan in motion. does it have something to do with

the baby switch? he had to wait long enough for margarete / dana to be the right age to flirt with eike?

if that's the case, couldn't he have

switched margarete with any baby twenty years before he planned to set the wheels in motion? couldn't he have traded her with a baby born in 1800 and sent hugo after eike in 1820? or did it have to be mr. eckert's baby because he mr. eckert would assist hugo, when someone with more moral character might not have?

this brings me back to the possibility that

eike HAS only just returned to town, which is why this is the first point that H. can start his plot

i wish we knew how well eike and eckert knew each other... it'd help a lot. i.e. is eckert eike's mentor? or did they just meet on the street one day and eckert said, "hey, why don't you come by my museum sometime?" eckert knows eike well enough that

they've had a conversation about eike not remembering his parents... but could it also be possible that at the beginning of the game they don't know each other at all (which would be why in ch. 2 eckert's standing right there in the square and eike doesn't see / recognize him), but sometime between chs 2 and 3 Homunculus has done something with time travel or has somehow manipulated one of the "other" eikes in another world so that by the time chapter 3 starts, they DO know each other? "our" eike wouldn't remember this, just as he didn't remember the metal plate stuff that prompts the coffee / tea conversation... but in this case, the player wouldn't "remember" it either...

-emily (not sure i'm still making sense...)

[Becky]

What Homunculus wants:

To get his counterpart out of the stone and keep him out of the stone.
To do this, he has to get the stone to Wagner, who has all the needed stuff to finish the experiment.

The Wagners are also the only ones capable of forcing the freed Homunculus BACK into the stone. Therefore, killing them (once H is freed) is a laudable goal. Take out the Wagner line altogether and H never has to worry again. If you think about it, if H thought Dana really WAS Eike's ancestress, pulling her out of the correct century and plunking her down in ours ALSO would have prevented a (modern-day Eike's) birth, wouldn't it?

And yeah, I think H is using Hugo as part of a dastardly evil design. Of course there's a lot of material there for H to work with!

I'm not sure that the friendship between Eckert and Eike is important. I think it may simply be a plot device for getting Eike to the museum. It seems likely that their counterparts in previous incarnations were friends, so hanging out at the mansion/museum together feels like deja vu all over again.

[MysterD]

I'm not sure that the friendship between Eckert and Eike is important. I think it may simply be a plot device for getting Eike to the museum. It seems likely that their counterparts in previous incarnations were friends, so hanging out at the mansion/museum together feels like deja vu all over again.

I think the relationship b/t Eckert and Eike IS important:
As we all know, Eike has been pushed off the tower b/c of Eckert. Why? B/c Eckert believes a man who looks like Eike killed his wife Mariam, if you believe he never saved her and the multiple world theory. Remember, in most instances, Eike is at the scene of the crime -- whether he did it or not (unless you ignore the whole sequence in that Chapter after you talk to Mr. Franssen.

Remember, In Chap 7's Finale, after that whole ordeal w/ Eike living after hanging onto the rope, Eckert says he knew you looked like the one that was at the scene of the crime, which is why he befriended Eike. Also, this could explain why in one of the chapters -- was in Chapter 3? -- that a vase falls on your head. Was that Mr. Eckert trying to kill Eike? Did he drop the vase purposely?

And you have to remember, Hugo put Mr. Eckert all up to this -- if you go by the part that he has kidnapped Margarete.

[Becky]

It might be interesting to figure out what each character's ultimate goal is -- and include Fate/Destiny as a character. Under what circumstances does Eike "win"? How about Eckert? And Homlunculus? After all, it is a game.

It seems to me that Eike wins if he avoids death. He wins big if he avoids existing in the first place (Extra ending where Wagner makes the Elixir of Life) or if he destroys Homunculus (other Extra ending).

Eckert wins if his wife is rescued. He wins big if Margarete ends up in his century. (Ending A)

Homunculus wins if he's freed from the stone. He wins big if his natural enemies (Eike and Hugo) are both dead (ending C).

Hugo never wins, does he? If his goal is bringing Helena back to life, he never accomplishes that. (Well, maybe he wins in the one extra ending.) And Hugo stays dead at the end even more than Eike does.

Does Destiny ever win? If so, which ending?

MysterD you and Emily are right. In my previous post I was discounting Eckert as a player way too much. The plot falls apart without him.

One more thought: If Homunculus is so persuasive, then why once Dana is back in the past with the stone -- why doesn't he just persuade Dana to walk across town and hand the stone to Wagner? Why even bother with Eike at that stage?

[fov]

Does Destiny ever win? If so, which ending?

ending C. it was the first ending i got and i remember the chill that went through me when eike got hit by that car... after all that, he died anyway. his destiny couldn't be changed. i agree with becky that in ending C, Homunculus wins too. but when i saw ending C i hadn't seen some parts of the story, so i didn't realize how much Homunculus was involved in the orchestration... in other words, if Destiny is a character, are Homunculus and Destiny one and the same?

If Homunculus is so persuasive, then why

once Dana is back in the past with the stone -- why doesn't he just persuade Dana to walk across town and hand the stone to Wagner? Why even bother with Eike at that stage?

good question!

i had a really smart answer, too, but the phone rang and now i can't remember what i was going to say. :frown:

-emily

[Becky]

ORIGINAL THREAD SUMMARY -- Entry 7

(Participants discussed the relative merits of SOD, TLJ and Syberia) -- then

fov -- ...[Leibniz's] philosophy differs from the Many Worlds Theory in that the Many Worlds Theory assumes a causal relationship between actions and their outcomes. i.e., one universe exists BECAUSE Eike gave himself a message to pick up the frying pan; another universe exists BECAUSE Eike took the metal plate from Franssen, etc.

Leibniz said that there are an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of possible interactions between people and objects...and in some of these universes, some of the interactions don't make logical sense...The world we live in (the "most perfect" world) is the one that contains the most interactions that make sense.

You could say that your ideal SOD game -- the one where you solve as many of the puzzles as possible in your favorite way, leading to your favorite ending -- is the "most perfect" world.

But in contrast to the Many Worlds Theory (or to Homunculus's coffee/tea example), Leibniz said that all of the actions in the different universes are predetermined based on God's "pre-established harmony" -- so there are an infinite number of worlds with Eikes doing an infinite number of things, but Eike has no choice in the matter.

Of course, if the player doesn't have any choice in the matter, you don't have much of a game, but you could say that Eike's actions *are* predetermined...he's not the one making the decisions, the player is.

Leibniz said that God was the only thing that existed across all of the worlds -- kind of like Homunculus who can travel from one world to another to see the outcomes, but also like the player who can see the results of Eike's different choices and determine which path Eike will take.

MysterD -- Would SOD's Many Worlds theory also hold true for more than interactions with people -- in this instance that there are objects Eike can use either the Cellphone or the Lighter. Based on what you use, if you tell the guy who needs squire's approval to build a statue, it'll be based on what you used to ward them off.

fov -- MysterD, that scenario would definitely mean two different universes in Leibniz's philosophy. I don't know if it would mean two different worlds in the Many Worlds Theory, since the outcome is the same however you solve the puzzle -- the statue changes, but the difference in the statue doesn't affect gameplay at all....

Becky -- I wonder -- if Leibniz's theory is correct, do you run into an infinite number of versions of yourself in the After-life? That would be kind of boring, don't you think?...Also, I've been thinking: is it possible that Homunculus's real goal is self-propogation? In other words, is he using Eike and the stone to create as many situations in which timespace splits will occur which results in more worlds with Homunculuses in them?

MysterD -- But who says there's an afterlife? For all we know, we could be sent off into another universe!

fov -- ...I think Leibniz said only the "most perfect" world exists, so there would only be one afterlife....

MysterD -- What characters did everybody dislike the most? Which Ending do you dislike the most?

fov -- I disliked Hugo and Homunculus. Hugo because he was annoying, and Homunculus because ...when I saw Homunculus walking away from the scene with the baby in Chapter 6...I went from being curious about him to really distrusting him. Don't usually get so emotional about a computer game villain!...Now my least favorite ending is B...it starts out as if you'll have ending A, but you encourage Margarate to go back home. She's home all alone, Hugo's been sucked up by the Dr. Wagner demon, and H gets to live again...it leaves me with an empty feeling. Eike gets to live, but no one else is happy.

MysterD -- Ending C was my least favorite...but based on the way it ends It leads into the EX Chapter.

My least favorite character is probably Hugo and Dr. Wagner. Hugo was annoying the whole time and just like Dr. Wagner -- was all out for himself, wanting the Homunculus for whatever selfish reasons they had....

...Ending A was perfect -- especially since this is the time [Margarete] REALLY belongs in. It felt like Eike set things finally straight, after H messed it all up.

fov -- Just wondering, why do you think they numbered (lettered) the endings like they did? Maybe it's because I got ending C first, but I sort of see ending C as the first possible ending, because it's prompting the player to go back and get the other endings.

As far as building on what's been learned before, I think they should be numbered like this: C, D, E, B (eckert path, then helena path) A.

I think A should come last because it's the closest you get to setting things right

MysterD -- They might have lettered them the way they did because this is the way they created them.

They probably came up with Ending A as the original ending for the game -- which I think is the best ending.

Becky I disagree. I think the designers planned multiple endings from the very beginning. What you learn in the various endings is key to an understanding of the rest of the story. The first set of "endings" is, IMHO, the middle portion of the game, and in some ways the meatiest portion of the plot. the REAL endings are the extra endings. Another question -- why are there two B endings, rather than an F ending?

Given the way this game plays with time, do we actually know which death takes place first? Are there more things fated than Eike's death?

MysterD -- ...I think from the beginining that they planned multiple endings -- but I think Ending A was the ending they were originally shooting for as the true ending for one Eike's life (since there are many, based on Multiple Worlds theory) -- the "happiest ending"; hence it being called ENDING A.

I think all the other endings were purposely made to fill up the holes in the story they left dangling.

The extra Endings are what finish it all off totally because it finishes off the existence of an Eike. -- finally. But because of these Extra Ending(s) does this, in fact end off all The Eikes, since the player's and Eikes' memories merge as one (like he's a Godlike figure or something)? I think it does because Eike knows everything and is no longer needed in any world.

...Which death takes place first depends on how you play the game.

Kolzig -- Why is SOD so easy? I have only played it three hours and already I'm so far away in the game.

My opinion is that SOD shares many similarities to Metal Gear Solid series, lot of video sequences, right?

MysterD -- It's [easy] because it's highly replayable. I've already beaten it 7 or so times; still haven't seen everything. I've seen most of it, though.

It does [resemble Metal Gear Solid]. But all the scenes are layered with importance -- play the game enough times and take different paths, you'll see what I mean....

Becky -- ...Why does Homunculus choose not to claim Wagner's soul immediately after Eike's first death? I have a theory that once Homunculus does claim a soul, that soul bolsters his physical strength and overall power. For Homunculus to forgo claiming a soul that he knows is rightfully his implies that there is an even greater prize....

This game certainly is memorable. Certain portions replay themselves sometimes in my head. If I figure everything out, I'm hoping that it will finally go away.


MysterD -- Can you prove this theory [that claiming a soul bolsters H's strength] by anything said, shown, a scene, an event...If you can, this really could open up a can of worms -- and a damn good one...

Could H be the devil? The red eyes can make one believe so...or it could mean that he's evil...

fov -- Oh, and I do think that Homunculus is like the devil. I think Eike was right at the beginning when he likened H to the devil wanting to "buy" his soul.

MysterD -- Well, you do have a point. This was like the 2nd scene in the game -- after the opening.

Original Thread -- Entry 7 ends here

[MysterD]

One more thought: If Homunculus is so persuasive, then why once Dana is back in the past with the stone -- why doesn't he just persuade Dana to walk across town and hand the stone to Wagner? Why even bother with Eike at that stage?

D Has Some Thoughts On This:
As we all know, Eike is pretty much H's puppet. This H could be getting back with him (revenge), for banishing another H in another world as Dr. Wagner -- I'm counting on the multiple worlds theory here! :)

In all of these multiple worlds, Eike has done a lot to H -- and H is doing ANYTHING to ruin Eike.

In one ending, he even throws a the Philosopher's Stone @ H --- and that's the end of H.

For all we know, in some other world, some other version of H could be like Eike did in the Extra chapters -- remembering everything that happened in another world.

[Becky]

Interesting idea that Homunculus is actually enjoying watching Eike die over and over. Especially as it is Eike's son that is involved in some way in each act of murder. Yes, I could see H having a chuckle over this. Is that why H is slow at the end to realize that Eike is regaining memories and becoming more of a threat? He's enjoying himself too much?

I've thought a bit more about the Dana question, and I realized that if Dana walks across the square before Helena's death and hands the stone to Wagner, then Wagner will simply use it to cure Helena and H is a goner. So the stone has to reach Wagner at a specific time AFTER Helena's death. H has a lot more control over Time with Eike (programming the digipad) than he does over Dana.

I'm starting to wonder if Fate had originally called for this scenario -- Dana finds the stone, gives it to her father and he uses it to cure Helena. But H (either from another world or from a previous time when he was released from the stone and before he was trapped back in it) saw what was fated and pulled Dana out of there before she could find the stone. Once the baby switch was accomplished H had to explore history and find out what had now happened to the time line. I wonder if that's the scene on the stairs above the ruined lab (the lab is only ruined in Ending D) when H doesn't seem to recognize Eike. H's discouragement at this moment could have been from seeing that his exhausting work with the baby switch only leads to him being placed right back in the stone!

So the Ending D scene in the lab shows what happened first in this NEW post-baby-switch timeline (Wagner gets the stone after Helena's death) without any intervention by H. And the Ending E scene in the lab shows what happens when H gets the stone to Wagner a second time through Eike, knowing that this time he needs to avoid the pentagram in order to stay free.

Weakness of my new idea -- we have to speculate that in Ending D Wagner manages somehow to get the stone without Dana and without Eike. We don't see that happening (Wagner's solo discovery of the stone) in any part of the game.

[MysterD]

Interesting idea that Homunculus is actually enjoying watching Eike die over and over. Especially as it is Eike's son that is involved in some way in each act of murder. Yes, I could see H having a chuckle over this. Is that why H is slow at the end to realize that Eike is regaining memories and becoming more of a threat? He's enjoying himself too much?


H Jerking A Zombie & Eike Around:
I always found the ending where H pulls out The Wagner Zombie in front of Eike very interesting -- I forget which ending letter that was. Was that B? or A?

I always wondered if H somehow *knew* when he pulled the zombie out that The Wagner Zombie is Eike; if you go by Ending D's Revelation that Eike is Wagner.

[fov]

does H. even realize that dana

got sent back to the past? i don't think eike ever mentions it to him... so unless he bumped into dana there, he probably wouldn't know. when he and eike have the conversation in the museum, H. says something like "at some point you'll come across this stone..." he doesn't know that dana has it... if he did, then he could have just manipulated her...

just a thought!

:) emily

[Becky]

I think H can monitor anything that's said while Eike uses the digipad. He gives Eike advice about what Eike's done wrong even though Eike hasn't described what he's been doing. And H seems able to magically show up in various places where Eike happens to be. Also, at one point the Fortune Teller tells Eike not to describe his plans in case H is listening.

The incident with Dana take place right by the Tree of Life. If he had been glancing out the window, H should have been able to see it.

The more I think about this game the more I think that H is not the "innocent" I'm-just-trying-to-survive type that he pretends to be. I think this is all quite carefully planned, with a bit of ruthless ad-libbing when opportunities present themselves like taking out Hugo with the Wagner puppet. H's personality in the D and E endings in the lab is closer to his true character than the way he presents himself initially to Eike in the crossroads scene at the beginning of the game.

I think H knows there are risks to the game he is playing, and he has been surprised to realize that he can't predict every twist and turn in the game (he says not even HE fully understands the power of fate) but the reward is worth the gamble -- especially as Eike does not at first seem to be much of an opponent.

[Becky]

MysterD -- I think H HAS to know that Wagner is Eike. I used to think that H couldn't know this, because the baby switch (which is exhausting and extremely tricky -- it really messes with Fate) only made sense if H REALLY thought that Dana was Eike's ancestress, so putting Margarete there protected Eike. In fact, if Dana was Eike's ancestress, pulling her out of the correct time and away from her fated husband would have caused Eike never to have been born.

So the baby switch must have occurred for some other reason. It's most likely (I think at the moment) to have something to do with Dana's ability to procure and hold onto the stone. H didn't want Dana finding it at the fated time in the past (Wagner would have used it to cure Helena) but he did want her finding it in the future when a de-stoned Eike was much less of a threat to H (H could bring Eike into the crossroads without worrying that Eike would remember the stone in his pocket and casually toss it to H).

Also -- we learn that Wagner becomes Eike by watching a flashback presented by H. Could H show Eike the flashback and not himself understand what was happening in it?

[MysterD]

I think H can monitor anything that's said while Eike uses the digipad. He gives Eike advice about what Eike's done wrong even though Eike hasn't described what he's been doing. And H seems able to magically show up in various places where Eike happens to be. Also, at one point the Fortune Teller tells Eike not to describe his plans in case H is listening.

The incident with Dana take place right by the Tree of Life. If he had been glancing out the window, H should have been able to see it.

That makes sense since....

In one of the endings, I recall Eike dropping the Digipad and that was the end of H. The digipad is a part of H.

The more I think about this game the more I think that H is not the "innocent" I'm-just-trying-to-survive type that he pretends to be. I think this is all quite carefully planned, with a bit of ruthless ad-libbing when opportunities present themselves like taking out Hugo with the Wagner puppet. H's personality in the D and E endings in the lab is closer to his true character than the way he presents himself initially to Eike in the crossroads scene at the beginning of the game.

I think H knows there are risks to the game he is playing, and he has been surprised to realize that he can't predict every twist and turn in the game (he says not even HE fully understands the power of fate) but the reward is worth the gamble -- especially as Eike does not at first seem to be much of an opponent.

I think H is trying to
experiment and see how much the world changes just by one tiny little incident; whether he changes it or Eike changes.

[MysterD]

It might be interesting to figure out what each character's ultimate goal is -- and include Fate/Destiny as a character. Under what circumstances does Eike "win"? How about Eckert? And Homlunculus? After all, it is a game.

It seems to me that Eike wins if he avoids death. He wins big if he avoids existing in the first place (Extra ending where Wagner makes the Elixir of Life) or if he destroys Homunculus (other Extra ending).

Eckert wins if his wife is rescued. He wins big if Margarete ends up in his century. (Ending A)

Homunculus wins if he's freed from the stone. He wins big if his natural enemies (Eike and Hugo) are both dead (ending C).

Hugo never wins, does he? If his goal is bringing Helena back to life, he never accomplishes that. (Well, maybe he wins in the one extra ending.) And Hugo stays dead at the end even more than Eike does.

Does Destiny ever win? If so, which ending?

Whoa! You got most of the pieces here. What about Dana and Margarete?

I won't forget them below:
Margarete wins, if Eike brings her back to her rightful time -- the present time. This is probably the happiest ending of the bunch.

Dana wins, if Eike leaves her in the past -- which she was originally from, anyways, since H played "God" and switched the babies.

[Becky]

Agreed about Dana and Margarete. Other characters?

Helena wins if she has helped Eike survive. She wins big in the Extra ending where the stone saves her life so she avoids the zombie disembodied spirit thing. Does drinking the Elixir of Life make Helena immortal? If so, it would seem that she is fated to live forever in some form or other.

Hugo wins in the ending where Eckert talks him out of his murderous habit!? He wins big in the Extra ending where Helena is saved.

Also, Margarete wins big in Ending A where there's a potential romance with Eike.

BTW, I've thought of a problem with the H monitoring Eike idea:Why doesn't H realize in the Extra ending that Eike now has the stone? Didn't he hear the conversation with Dana in the cafe where Eike gets back the stone?

I've been trying to think -- does Eike ever use the digipad at the same time he is carrying the stone? Maybe if the stone comes into contact with the digipad in the inventory while traveling through time, the resulting explosion disrupts the space-time continuum and the universe implodes.

[MysterD]

I've been trying to think -- does Eike ever use the digipad at the same time he is carrying the stone? Maybe if the stone comes into contact with the digipad in the inventory while traveling through time, the resulting explosion disrupts the space-time continuum and the universe implodes.

Stone & Digipad

Good question. But, I do think Eike has had the stone while using the digipad. It's just Eike has never let the digipad and stone TOUCH each other.

It'd probably cause hell, if they came into contact with each other -- just like when Eike touched another Eike in the Cafe.

[grazzt]

Hopefully posting 13 days after the last message aint against the msg board rules. :)

First post here, and SoD is my favourite PC game, so I just had to post here.

Any idea if that old thread mentioned on the first page is anywhere on the net.. I would like to read it, even if it is 100+ pages. :)

So many responses I would like to post, but too tired for that now. :)

Only thing I would like to bring up, is if anyone knows if its possible to get the secret ending in the game? The .wma files are available on the PC cdrom.

G.

http://sodpc.n3.net
SoD PC Page

[fov]

hi! unfortunately, the first thread was lost when the adventuregamers site went down over the summer. becky happened to print it out a few days before this. the summaries she's posted have been very good.

when you say secret ending, do you mean the EX ending? this can only be accessed after you've gotten all five normal endings. i've also read about some easter egg on the playstation version where you can see footage from a japanese trade show (?) -- as far as i know, nothing like this is on the PC version. (i'd love to know about it if there is, though!)

:) emily

[grazzt]

hi! unfortunately, the first thread was lost when the adventuregamers site went down over the summer. becky happened to print it out a few days before this. the summaries she's posted have been very good.

when you say secret ending, do you mean the EX ending? this can only be accessed after you've gotten all five normal endings. i've also read about some easter egg on the playstation version where you can see footage from a japanese trade show (?) -- as far as i know, nothing like this is on the PC version. (i'd love to know about it if there is, though!)

:) emily

No, I know about the EX endings, and they are attainable in the PC versions. I have attained 100% in all chapters in the PC version, and its the same as the PS2 version, in that the title screen changes. And you are correct, there are no trade show mpegs in the PC version.

The "secret ending" are a bunch of .wma file installed on your hd from the PC version (hence, I have no idea if the files exist on the PS2 game disc).

You can hear the secret files at http://www.xs4all.nl/~kdegraaf/sounds.htm .

Probably not attainable, but still you never know. :)

G.

http://sodpc.n3.net
SOD PC Page

[fov]

You can hear the secret files at http://www.xs4all.nl/~kdegraaf/sounds.htm .


OH MY GOD!!

i am listening to them right now (from the page you linked to). THIS IS THE ENDING I WANTED ALL ALONG!!!

i wonder why it was left out of the game?

-emily

ps from what i heard of the secret ending (is that the whole thing, i wonder?), it sounds like it would have required

eike to call margarete his ancestress, AND it would have required dana to return to the present then go back.

the way it is right now, the game isn't set up to allow that to happen.

that's a great site btw -- gives some nice info about the different endings.

[Becky]

I am a little afraid to listen to this. What if it contradicts the Everything-Explained scenario I've been writing up for the past few days?

[grazzt]

Well, I own the pc version and I have played every wma file that gets installed, and all of them seem to be in the game, except those 4. So I'm just guessing they are just left overs that Konami forgot to erase.

I cant really think of any of the scenes that could lead to these 4 scenes, so I cant see how it could be possible to get the ending.

And yeah, that site is nice.. much better than mine.. I suck bad at html and graphics. heh. :)

Oh well.. at least something to peak the other SoD fans out there. :)

btw how do you do that spoiler stuff?

G.

[fov]

Well, I own the pc version and I have played every wma file that gets installed, and all of them seem to be in the game, except those 4. So I'm just guessing they are just left overs that Konami forgot to erase.

if they're leftover, they must have come from somewhere... i.e. a script. i wonder if there are animations to go with them (animations that aren't used in the game). can the cutscenes be played separately from the game? (for example, i once downloaded a player that let me view all final fantasy 8 movies outside of the game... i wonder if something similar exists, or could be created, for SoD?)

i wonder if there's an original script somewhere. hmm. maybe i will start driving down to redwood city and hanging around the Konami building during my lunch breaks. i bet if i showed a little skin i could make friends with a developer or two...

*pictures herself explaining this to her boyfriend... who already "doesn't get" this computer game stuff...*

another thing though -- those four .wma files refer to stuff that's happened before this, that we don't know about (in other words, the files containing whatever prompted this conversation are missing). hmm. i wonder if the european PC version contains these files, or different "secret" files?

from what we do hear in those four files, it almost sounds (to me) like this ending could have been attached to one of the A or B endings. for example,

if after the wagner puppet eats hugo, you keep margarete in the present, you get ending A. if you bring her home, you get ending B (with the message about it feeling unresolved

could this secret ending have been intended as A2, but for whatever reason (budget, deadline, etc.) they decided to short-circuit A2 and lead it into the B ending instead?

the files also imply (to me) that

eike has not spoken to homunculus in 1980, because he has to explain "that blonde girl -- she's related to you"

and that homunculus has seen dana at some point... as if he saw dana return to the past when eike was off doing something else.

btw how do you do that spoiler stuff?

[ spoiler ] and [ /spoiler ] (but without spaces beside the brackets)

:) emily

[grazzt]

Sorry for not quoting you each time, too lazy. :)

I believe the animation data is still in the game. Ive looked through the other installed files (wad files), and there are references in the files to the filenames of those 4 wma files.

Ive played around a little with those wad files, but couldnt get it working. :( (ive changed file pointers, and other stuff, but I guess its over my head)

And your explanation is plausible on how those 4 scenes can fit in.

Anyone know off hand if the epilogue scenes contribute to your percentage score? I have accomplished 100% in each chapter, so if epilogue scenes do count, then Im guessing its probably impossible to get the 4 scenes.

Note, I have written a program that decodes the dialogue files to english text, and the text for those 4 scenes are in those dialogue files.

http://www.waynesworld1.com/g/sod/secret.txt is the text of the ending along with the filenames of the wma files.. and im just testing spoiler as well. heh


I have emailed Konami about this, but alas, they dont respond. :(

G.

http://sodpc.n3.net

[fov]

i don't know if the epilogue scenes contribute to the percentage... don't they have their own percentages? i am still missing some %s in some epilogues, which i find weird, because i have no idea what else i could have done (i.e., if the epilogue's one long cutscene and i can't manipulate eike, how can i be missing something?) i haven't gotten any 100%s yet.

the secret ending also seems like it could be grouped with ending E in that

hugo brought dana to the present... maybe while eike was off taking care of hugo, dana decided to go back home

except that ending E can't be achieved if you've told margarete that she's your ancestress.

in chapter 8, it would have been easy enough for them to have included the option to

ask dana to come back or stay... if this option were available, bringing her back could have led to the secret ending. when i played the C ending i always found it really, really weird that eike didn't try to get dana to come back with him, since i (and he) didn't know yet that she and margarete had been switched... maybe i found it so weird because the original script called for that option, but it was taken out of the final product for whatever reason.

i may mess around with those files a bit when i get the chance...

-emily

[Becky]

If Dana had been around in ending C it's hard to imagine Eike lying down in the middle of the road. I think ending C shows Eike's only "fated" death (the only one that didn't involve Hugo traveling from the past) and for that death to happen Eike has to (once again) be alone.

[grazzt]

Havent played the game in a while (Im just going to reinstall it now), but arent there some choices in the epilogue chapters or are they from Chapter 8?


Ie having to bump into margaret on the stairs gets you extra %, or having to talk to hugo a couple times in the square.. Im guessing they are probably from Ch 8, but I cant be sure


I cant comment on the PS2 or xbox version, but I know the PC version save game system is really whacky. The way I understand it, is if you continue from a save game in Slot 2, the percentages you gained from a Slot 1 save for that chapter are removed. (does that even make sense??). Maybe thats why you dont have 100% in the epilogue.

Quick fix for this, only save games in one of the slots. I figured that a while back. (I dont want to tell you how long it took me to figure that out, and how frustrated I was when my percentages actually went down after completing a chapter, heh)

G.

http://sodpc.n3.net

[fov]

If Dana had been around in ending C

i agree, C wouldn't be C if dana was there. it would have been clearer for me to say, the first time i played the game (which ultimately led me to ending C), i was surprised in ch.8 by the inability to ask dana to come back with me

that's sucky about the save slots. i suspected the game wasn't actually recording the fact that i've done just about everything. :(

-emily

[grazzt]

I have now transcribed the entire games dialogue into text files. My program aint the best, but the txt files are at least readable. http://www.waynesworld1.com/g/sod/trans/index.php

Ive skimmed through most of it, the only thing I can see thats in the dialogue that doesnt appear in the actual game (PC version) is the dialogue from Homunculus on how to use the Digipad from the Prologue. ie Press X (or whatever) to use it.

Just as a side note, I believe in Chapter 8, if you go to the snowy day, and go to the city hall and get a map, the chick in there tells you to use the triangle button to activate the map. Guess the programmers at Konami forgot to remove that from the PC version. :)

G.

http://sodpc.n3.net

[Becky]

Grazzt -- thank you for posting this link. It's extremely helpful.

[fov]

:frusty: This is a stranger trying to get in through the city gate. They won't let him in because they don't want generations of yellow, bodiless neighbors.

i was just listening to some of the audio files in my SoD directory... i played through everything said by the man and woman in the trenchcoat. i guess i didn't bump into them very much because there's a lot they say that i hadn't heard. here's the part that i found most interesting:

the guy says they're supposed to be meeting so they can elope. the woman says "we were going to leave this city together." but even though they're both only blocks away from each other all day long, they can't find each other in order to do it...

more proof that no one can actually get out of this town?

-emily

[Becky]

Here's some more of the dialogue from Grazzt's link. I'm not sure every word is from the couple who can't find each other, but it sure sounds like it! Absurd that they can't find each other in that little town -- it does look as though there's a force keeping them apart as soon as they decide to leave together.

That woman
did she lie to me?
We were going to elope
But I can't do it alone.
Leave me
leave me in my misery
I think I'll just go home
I hope you never have to face betrayal
Maybe I should get something to
eat at the bar down the road
It's night already.
And I'm freezing out here
It's so cold
cold enough to
bring tears to my eyes
I'm sure this is where we were
supposed to meet
We promised we'd leave this city
together
we promised
I'm hungry
A broken heart doesn't kill your appetite.


I don't remember hearing any of this from them in the game! Either I've forgotten or I missed a lot.

[Becky]

Here's some dialogue from what seems to be a possible ending A2. It's taken from Grazzt's decoding of this scene -- one I've never heard of anyone accessing in the game. It's the Mystery Ending that Emily was discussing earlier:



(Eike and Margaret talking)

Is that you, Eike?
Yeah.
Look at this
It's just
me now.
Everyone else is
gone.
Did you know about this?
That this would happen?
No
No, I didn't
Won't you take me to your time?
Or is it still a 'no' because
I'm your ancestress
I'm sorry, I made a mistake
about that.
What
? Really?
It was one of Homunculus's--
Well, I guess it doesn't matter.
So
I thought if you like,
I could get you to come with me.
I know you'd like to see that age
How about it?
All right
.
Let's go.

(crashing noise and Margaret grunting)
You okay?

(Eike and Homunculus talking)

Welcome back, Eike.
Time to give that thing up.
Yeah, about this thing--
It did something weird just now.
Maybe it's broken.
As if anything I make
breaks down so easily
Here, let me have a look
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA (homunculus screaming)

It seems as though bringing Margarete permanently forward into time results in H being put back in the stone. Interesting, right?

Do you suppose that we just haven't figured out how to access ending A2?

Do you think the endings are lettered according to ultimate outcome of the main characters and how far that outcome strays from the Original Destiny -- which I think was: Dana in her right era, Margarete in her right era, Eike dead (or having never been created) and H back in the stone (or having never been released)?

A -- Dana in her right era, Margarete in her right era, Hugo alive, Eike alive, H back in the stone

B -- Dana in her right era, Magarete in the wrong era, Hugo dead, Eike alive, H released permanently

C -- Dana in her right era, Margarete in the wrong era, Hugo dead, Eike dead, H released permanently

D -- Dana in her right era, Margarete in the wrong era, Hugo alive, Eike alive, H released permanently

E -- Dana in the wrong Era, Margarete in the wrong era, Hugo alive, Eike alive, H released permanently

[Becky]

"A" ending(s) seem closest to the Original Destiny (before H started messing with changing the timespaces/streams) and "E" ending seems farthest away.

How's this for a wacked-out idea: The reason H chose to put Margarete in the past where she could, in the course of H's machinations, intrigue and influence Eike -- is that Margarete is a Helena reincarnate. H knew that they would be attracted to each other.

P.S. I have heard other complaints that Konami doesn't respond to email. Are they significantly worse than other gaming companies in this regard?

[grazzt]

The "ending" text you quoted is the transcript of those 4 sound files that I posted a link to earlier. The "secret" ending as it were.

And after reading the other transcript you posted between the man and the woman, I cant recall hearing those quotes either. Although, to be honest, I havent played the game in a while. Im guessing those quotes if they do exist would probably be in Chapter 8, if not the Epilogue (if its even possible to talk to them in the Epilogue).

Konami has never responded to any of my emails, so take that for what its worth. :( And from what I understand, the people/company that ported the game to the PC went bankrupt, so it would be hard to get a hold of them as well..

I really do have a feeling that the ending is not in the game, my main reason being that 100% has been accomplished in the epilogue, and that everyone has played the game through and you would think someone would have gotten it by now if it did exist.

If anyone has any computer/programming knowledge, if you look at file offset around 0x5aeae2 in shadow.exe, you'll notice that the name of the wma file is there, with other data around it. Could be file pointers to the video data, or something. I have played around with the data, but the game either crashes, or doesnt do what I want it to do. Esentially what Ive been trying to do is get the game to play that scene instead of the scene it wants to play. Ie instead of playing the intro, it plays that ending scene.. hasnt worked though. I might keep trying, but Im getting the feeling this sort of stuff is over my head. :)

G.

[Becky]

Grazzt -- thanks for all the new information you've added to the discussion. Seems to me that, for a person who thinks they are in over their head, you've opened up great tools for analyzing the game that we wouldn't have figured out otherwise!

I still have to transcribe two more summary entries in the Original SOD thread (the one that grew to more than 100 printed pages before the board went down). I've been leaving in everything, except -- the stuff you would find in a walkthrough, things that were repetitious, and some of the goofier stuff.

Because I haven't been able to get all the Original Thread summaries up all at once, we've been effectively having two conversations here simultaneously, one from the past and one that's current. When I manage to get the final Original Thread summary posted here, the least confusing way to read THIS thread would be to start with Original Thread Summary, Entry #1 on page 2 of this thread, read through all the Original Thread summaries, then go back to the beginning of this thread and start reading everything EXCEPT the Original Thread summaries through to the end.

Hmmm.

Anyway, how's this for wacked-out idea #2?

What if, realizing that Helena was not only healed by the Elixir of Life, but that she was returned to youthfulness and given immortality as well (and not wishing for her to spend eternity without her family) Dr. Wagner and Hugo also drink from the Elixir of Life. If this happens, then the "Eike" and "Hugo" that we see at the very end of the Extra endings may actually BE Dr. Wagner and Hugo rather than their ancestors/reincarnates.

[fov]

We've been effectively having two conversations here simultaneously, one from the past and one that's current.

tee hee -- don't you mean that in one world we're having one conversation, and in another world we're having a different one?

in addition to the four "secret" wma files linked above (becky, the text you quoted is missing the first one, where H. tells eike that dana is his ancestress, and she went back to her own time), i found another one where H. says, "Oh, you didn't bring her back with you?" (or something like that). so it seems if there were an A2 ending, you could either choose to bring margarete back or leave her in the past. i suspect if you left her there,

you'd get a B ending, just as you do if you're on the A path and you convince her to go back, rather than to stay.

as for the two people talking, i don't remember hearing this part of their conversation either, but i'm not sure if i sought them out in every chapter. i do remember the woman saying she wanted to get something to eat, but not the stuff about the broken heart.

-emily

[grazzt]

I should have posted a new thread about those wma files, but I just saw the sod thread here, and posted it in here. If someone wants to start a new thread, maybe that will be better?

I just finally read through the first 4 pages (just skimmed them before), and man do I wish I was around when all the action from that huge thread was going on. :/ Lots of interesting ideas and posts there, some of them over my head. :) I really have to play the endings again, Ive forgotten a lot about the game. except Ending C and poor Eike. :)

Ive also added two more translated files to my page, one is of "old chapter 4" (g_c04_msg_e_old.mds) and one of mdm_e.mdm, which contains more dialogue and the descriptions of inventory items and other misc stuff.

From mdm_e.mdm, theres a couple things that stuck out that I dont think Ive seen before:


Cat collar in the antique shop? Dont think Ive ever seen that before.
A Picture book for cats? huh? where is that?
"Got scribbling block" huh? where is that? never heard of that in the game


G.

[Becky]

I should have posted a new thread about those wma files, but I just saw the sod thread here, and posted it in here.

No way should you have posted any place other than here! If anybody has made this thread long and confusing, I want it understood that the fault rests with me.

I'm still reading through the files Grazzt assembled. I shouldn't leap to conclusions about my theories of the game before reading everything, but it's hard to restrain myself.

Emily -- the comment you mentioned about Dana when H speaks disdainfully of her and tells her that Eike is related to her -- isn't this proof positive that H knows who Eike is?

I looked in every chapter for the couple-who-can't-find-each other. There were a couple of chapters where I couldn't find them at all and assumed they had been left out. Maybe I should have looked even more carefully! I didn't always go in the church, for instance. Maybe in one chapter we find them kneeling in separate pews?

Edit -- Grazzt I don't remember the items you mentioned in your spoiler either. It would make sense for the cat book to be in the scene in Eckert's office when you return after giving Sybella a kitten and return to find the office swarming with cats. The scribbling block has me stymied though. Could it have anything to do with the new message in the egg that Eike gets in the Extra endings? I never did see a point in the game where I thought that it was clear that that particular message was being sent to himself.

[fov]

Emily -- the comment you mentioned about Dana


when H speaks disdainfully of her and tells her that Eike is related to her -- isn't this proof positive that H knows who Eike is?

yes, i think so. notice that H. said

she's related to you, NOT she's your ancestress. in other words, she's your daughter...

i haven't noticed any of those items either, but they shed a little light on things. for example, although the antique shop was interesting, there's nothing to DO there. maybe there was going to be, with the cat collar, and it was left out of the game? same thing with the church. i went in there almost every chance i got, and never found anything to do.

-emily

[grazzt]

I was always curious about the church.. some guy on some other message board said the church did have some significance in the game, but then never again posted.. so I highly doubt there is any. Just another red herring put in by Konami.

About that extra antique item, has anyone given the cat away to Syliba, then in later chapters checked the antique store? Maybe something to try.

Theres also 3 or 4 other books mentioned in the dialogue which I dont recall seeing in the game either.. maybe they are in the library somewhere. "Eating crabs the right way"? lol, what the hell does that have to do with the game.. heh

G.

[fov]

ahh, that makes sense, maybe there are books in the library you can comment on. i never noticed any but i didn't try that hard. cat collar makes sense too, i'll check the antique shop sometime at a late point in the game -- however, other items are visible in the antique shop even before you've encountered them in the game (like the franssen sign).

-emily

[grazzt]

The books do exist in the game, they are in the library, just walk up to the shelves on the 2nd floor and they are there.

The scribbling block is also mentioned, hit esc then choose how to play the game, and it shows up there. Still dont remember ever seeing "Got scibbling block" though.

Havent gotten the cat collar in the antique shop yet though.

G.

[Becky]

I was always curious about the church.. some guy on some other message board said the church did have some significance in the game, but then never again posted.. so I highly doubt there is any. Just another red herring put in by Konami.

In a medieval European town like Lebensbaum, it would be extremely strange if there WASN'T a church. Of course, the game could let us see the exterior without letting us observe the interior, like many of the other buildings in the town. It's the fact that you can walk in the church that makes it seem as though something significant should happen there.

There are some biblical symbols going on in the game -- the fact that the town name means Tree of Life, and that the fruit of the tree (the philosopher's stone) gives immortality. Plus the presence of H, who is about as close to a demon as as you'll find. I'm not sure that any of this has any direct link to the church, however.

Also, I thought this was interesting (more info from the files Grazzt gave us). H says: "Fate branches out into many paths but
a person can only choose one of them.
And the tracks left on that path wear down grooves that become memories."

This may be an explanation for why Eike finally remembers what has gone on in past endings -- why in the Extra endings he remembers the stone and H and the characters he has met in the past. Enough times repeating the same actions and even someone whose memory has been wiped can start to remember.

[Becky]

Original Thread Summary -- Entry 8

Skinny Minnie -- I started thinking that Homunculus *was* the devil!

Becky -- When Eike asks H if he is Satan, H doesn't deny it. He says something like: "Oh come now, in this day and age?"

In the Extra Endings the Fortuneteller said that H is a "cursed abomination," which is interesting. I thought that H had red eyes because he was so closely related to the stone, which is red, but I agree that the red eyes could be another indication that he is demonic. The costume he's wearing has a kind of tail on it. (It's curious that Wagner didn't think it odd that the new life he was creating from the stone was already fully clothed.)

What made me suspect that H might be a demon/devil was the ability to control him through the pentagram and his bargaining for Wagner's soul. The first time I saw H unleashed I thought that Wagner had no choice, that just unleashing H was enough to have to forfeit his soul. After watching the scene again, I realized that H's bargain is very cleverly stated. He uses Wagner's despair and anger to rush Wagner into sealing the bargain....

MysterD -- About H The Devil Yes, this really does help [that H doesn't deny being Satan] because then we can believe it if we choose...that is what The Devil does is to acquire souls....

remixor -- This thread continues to drive me insane. It's been alive for almost two months now. How can there be so much to discuss?

fov -- I must say, I do admire your willpower.

Becky -- Remixor -- if you aren't careful -- the game, its characters and its philosophy gets under your skin. You start out trying to understand the implications of the plot. Next you find yourself solving one set of paradoxes in the story, only to encounter yet another set....You reach a new insight into H's motivations and post your ideas, only to realize later that your ideas contradict something H said, and at a point where you think he was actually telling the truth.

It's addictive.

Maybe you should avoid this game.

For instance, today I came up with a theory that H's realm was actually INSIDE the stone. And that once Eike was drawn into the realm and used the digipad, this allowed the trapped H to escape the stone and follow Eike around -- the digipad temporarily freed H. Then I remembered -- during the baby switch, H must have brought "Margarete" back to a time years before Eike shows up so that she can grow up to be a young woman by the time he does travel back in time.

Back to the drawing board.

MysterD -- This thread continues to drive me insane....How can there be so much to discuss?

Play SOD, get all the endings and all the EX Endings and you'll understand why there is so much to discuss. A lot of it is "theory," so nothing is really absolute -- even though some of it is definite.

This is why you see us shooting theories and ideas like crazy.

EDIT: It is to PC games what Mulholland Drive is to movies.

fov -- re: Hugo and Homunculus It's interesting to me that Hugo says to Eike "your time machine is more powerful than mine...all mine can do is follow yours around," but Eike can only go wherever the digipad lets him (which, I assume, is controlled by H, since at the end we see H program the digipad for "one last trip" back to the 1500s). So it makes me wonder...did Hugo actually create his own time machine, or did H give it to him (in a way that made Hugo think he'd created it)? Why would H do that? Could it be that, rather than wanting to make sure he was created, H was just looking for a way to entertain himself by messing around with other people's lives? This would explain the baby switch, which never made sense to me...maybe he just did it because he *could*? Wouldn't that be in line with what Satan does...wrecking havoc for the sake of wrecking havoc?

re: the "inside the stone" theory I like this theory! If you've played Tierra's King's Quest 2 remake, it would be similar to the enchanted island in that game. Remember at the beginining of SOD, when H watches Eike walking down the street, and H's realm is somewhere near the big tree...in ending A, the stone does end up near the big tree...could it have started off there as well? Then I can't explain how it got to the cafe, though....

But this brings up another question about the time machines If Hugo's machine can only follow the digipad, as Hugo states, how was he able to get to the present when he did? Eike doesn't *have* the digipad until after Hugo kills him the first time...so how is Hugo's time machine able to follow the digipad that Eike doesn't have yet? This is another reason I'm thinking that in spite of what Hugo believed, his time machine was actually created and controlled by H....

MysterD -- About time machines: I don't know if H made the time machine for Hugo. I think he might've stolen it from the early 1920's -- it has that kind of look...Were there any inventors in this SOD world in the late 1800s-1900s? What about Mr. Brum?

...From the get-go, I have thought H was a sarcastic character with evil intentions; his eyes being red symbolize it. Just his laugh irritates me, even. From the beginning, I thought H was purely sadistic and out for himself. H is a great character.

I think he is trying to create himself/herself/itself in as many worlds as possible and is messing with people's lives just to wreck havoc; and to see what effects it will have on a world.

So, I indeed see H as sadistic as the Kefka character in FF6.

...About Eike, I think H is watching him through the window from that place H sits on the top of the door sometimes on in the game, which he sits on in the opening cartoon anime movie...I like to call that The Crossroads or H's Place.

Becky -- If H realizes that Wagner is Eike, he might find it amusing to trick Wagner's son into attempting to murder his father. H may want revenge because he knows that Wagner trapped him (or a version of him) back in the stone. Or he may find that Eike's multiple deaths create more multiple worlds and multiple versions of H, and he finds it physically easier to get Hugo to trigger these violent, world-triggering events than to do it himself.

...Seeing H's condition after the baby switch, I think it can only have been done for a very good reason, not just for fun. Of course, there's always the chance that H enjoys tormenting himself. Hmmm. Nope, I don't think I'll go there.

...Eike has a kind of power over the stone (H does call him his "so-called Master") but somehow Dana has a similar attraction for the stone. In the realm-in-the-stone theory you could say that H could not draw Eike into the realm until Eike actually physically parts company with the stone....

It can't really be this complicated, can it? Somehow I'm missing the simple explanation....

fov -- No answers here, but this site is very funny!

Shadow of Destiny Outtakes (http://members.tripod.com/Anarchy_Acre/ShadowsOuttakes.html)

Becky -- I like the outtakes. The author, Deborah Brown, also worte a different ending to the game. You can tell it's a good game when the gamers start rewriting it!

MysterD -- Sounds like we need a ToolKit for SOD. Now that would be awesome...I'd like to see Konami release the SDK for this.

End of Original Thread Summary -- Entry 8

[Becky]

Original Thread Summary -- Entry 9

Becky -- What if the first death in real time is Eike being hit by the car while lying in the square? The game plays with time so much that it just might be possible. The only reason for believing this, of course, is that it gives Eike a nice "clean" death without involving Hugo or Eckert or Homunculus, so it could be a way of starting Eike's destiny without messing with the paradox of Eike being killed by someone who could only be there following Eikes' previous death.

fov -- re: first death in "real time" That's a great point, esp. since that ending ends with "I wish I could do it all over again" (or whatever) and since there are no credits. BUT, if Eike hasn't just been through this whole big ordeal, why would he be lying in the road?

Becky -- It feels great to lie in the road. You can feel the whole weight of the earth curving outward beneath you into infinity.

fov -- or, to quote that outtakes page, "Why am I lying in the middle of the road?"

I like the idea that H is trying to torment Dr. Wagner through his son...Hugo's time machine could have followed the digipad to when Eike went back one day to tie the rope...this *is* when we hear Eckert talking to Hugo on the phone, so presumably Hugo could have just gotten there...but Eike wouldn't have had to go back to that day at all if Hugo hadn't placed that phone call to Eckert!

Oh the paradoxes!

What if, unbeknownst to us, Homunculus is sitting on his little windowsill thingie, watching us theorize feverishly and laughing....

MysterD He probably is. :) Given that ending of Eike is Wagner, Eike's immortal -- forever young. So, say Eike gettin' ran over is the first death. Well, then he'll just get right back up.

If we've noticed, when Eike dies -- he doesn't really die; he is teleported back to H's place, usually -- unless he does something insane like touch another one of himself in a different time/world.

fov Re: immortality I don't think Eike/Dr. Wagner is immortal. Forever young, yes, but H allludes to Wagner being able to die when he says that he'll get Wagner's soul once he dies. However, I do think it's possible that for 500 years, H has been keeping Wagner/Eike alive in the same way that he does during the game. (Another thing -- if you die in Chapter 8 *after* getting the stone to Wagner, H won't bring you back. He says something like "we're too far along for me to do that anymore." So he's only keeping Eike alive as long as he needs him.)

I've been wondering...why now? Why are we playing out the events now, and not in some other era? What was Eike/Wagner DOING for 500 years before these events started up? Has the same thing happened before, but we haven't been able to see it?

...Could H possibly have zapped the wandering-around Eike from the 1500s into the present right before all the action started? (It's not as if Eike has any memories before the first killing, as far as we know.) For a minute I thought maybe the action is taking place in the present because Hugo wasn't able to locate Eike until Eike got ahold of the digipad, but again, how would Eike get the digipad of Hugo hadn't killed him the first time?

MysterD -- So when Eike dies and is teleported with those blue lights, is Eike's soul being thrown into another body a la Omikron (yet I ain't played it)?

Or is H just being a genie and making his wish come true to bring Eike back to life, if he dies because he can't make a wish directly on himself?

Becky -- Hmmm. So maybe eternal youth means that any cellular damage -- through aging, or through injury -- is simply repaired. It's as though Eike as we know him is constantly being refreshed. When the refresh happens, Eike's memory is wiped -- all new brain cells without memories. Maybe, when H pulls Eike into his realm, he isn't saving his life, he's pulling him out of Time into a place where Eike can retain his memories even as his body is refreshed. But why? Especially since Eike gets so good at retaining memories that in the Extra endings he is capable of defeating H.

I guess when you get the Game Over "Life is a wheel of changes" screen Eike really has died. These deaths are (as I recall) because Eike has contacted himself or has run out of time and died while in the wrong time period. In other words, they are related to time paradoxes. Time paradoxes may negate Eike's ability to refresh. So in that sense he really has died. The Game Over screen should show H feasting on Eike's soul....

What if, unbeknownst to us, Homunculus is sitting on his ilttle windowsill thingie, watching us theorize feverishly and laughing....

You're right! I can see him, out of the corner of my eye, but when I turn my head he disappears. He has made me an offer -- he will answer all the questions I have. Guess what he wants in exhange? :devil:

fov -- I like what Becky said about cellular changes and starting over with "fresh" brain cells...maybe on a grander scheme this HAS been going on for centuries and every once and awhile Eike's memories are wiped. He does know Eckert at the beginning of the game, so we have to assume he has some memories prior to being stabbed the first time...but other than knowing Eckert, he doesn't seem to remember much. I still think H is keeping Eike alive so Eike can take the stone to Wagner, because H can't touch the stone himself. However, here is a thought...H knows that Eike and Wagner are the same person, yet he doesn't have any problem sending Eike to talk/stand right next to Wagner. What if their arms had brushed accidentally?

MysterD -- Maybe H wipes his memories when he feels like it -- he IS a genie; an evil one, too.

Time paradoxes may negate Eike's ability to refresh. So in that sense he really has died. The Game Over screen should show H feasting on Eike's soul....

Yes, these are time travelling paradoxes. I think once this happens, he destroys his existence of being in the world he's supposed to be in...he ends up ceasing to exist. So, like in the EX endings -- there's no need for Eike any longer, since he screwed-up things for H, pretty much.

Why show H feasting on his soul when he's (metaphorically) been doing it since the beginning of the game? :)

Here's an entertaining thought. There's a SOD sequel, in which the main character of the game is indeed H. You control him. Now that would be cool -- or make for an interesting Mod, if we had that SDK!...how should we go about this? A petition on these boards? And then send to Konami?

Becky -- Just tell me where to sign! Good point [about H's metaphorical feasting]. Eike is more fun alive than dead. That should comfort him! And I suppose that a "feasting on Eike's soul" background pic might be offensive to some gamers. In fact, it's hard to imagine how it could be represented in a picture.

When I first started the game and saw H looking at Eike, I thought H's expression was quite tender. I thought he was a character who would be looking out for this young man, sort of like a guardian angel. I guess you really shouldn't judge things by your first impressions....

I've been wondering...why now? Why are we playing out the events now, and not in some other era? The only sense I can make of this is that H's power is limited to the town, and it's taken Eike 500 years to wander back into town. Possibly the stone is drawn there by Dana's presence -- maybe she is fated at a certain point in her life to find the stone, so Destiny draws Eike back to her. Eike walks back into town and H senses the presence of the stone for the first time -- that's the scene where his head snaps back and he starts to look out the window. Of course, Dana could only be there if H had already done the baby switch -- which assumes that H has already been busy arranging things before he "meets" Eike. Could it be that the time paradox of the baby switch triggers a time loop?

...maybe in addition to the Many World stuff going on, the time loop thing is happening, bounded on each end by key events. One end of the loop would be [the baby switch] and the other the confrontation between H and Eike in H's realm in the Extra ending. Maybe the game is H's attempt to toy with Destiny until he escapes the inevitable "final" destruction....

End of Original Thread Summary -- Entry 9 (Final Summary)

Printout ends 5-25-2003 02:51 AM. :7

[fov]

woohoo! thanks becky!

:D emily

[Becky]

Grazzt has added two new files to his previous link to the SOD dialogues. One file contains what appear to be entries in Eike’s notebook. I completely ignored Eike’s notebook while playing the game. That was a mistake.

For instance there’s this little tidbit, where Eike writes: “I guess I need those little balls of light to make the Digipad work.” That settles the question as to whether Eike is aware of the power balls.

And another tidbit from the notebook, where Eike writes: “Maybe I can make the elixir….With this stone, I can probably make the elixir. I can free Helena from her illness….I’m sure that’s what I desired in the past.” This seems to me to be an acknowledgement that Eike has finally acknowledged that he IS Wagner.

[fov]

Grazzt has added two new files to his previous link to the SOD dialogues. One file contains what appear to be entries in Eike’s notebook. I completely ignored Eike’s notebook while playing the game. That was a mistake.

you know, i really ignored the notebook too. i'm going to go back and take a look.

a new EB opened right near my office last week and i went in yesterday - they had a bunch of copies of SoD *on the shelf*. this is the first time i've ever seen SoD on a shelf, let alone more than one copy (i had to ask for mine from the back room... which makes NO sense if the store's actually trying to sell them...) Anyway, it excited me... I had to restrain myself from buying another copy!

:) emily

[Becky]

There's one left on the shelf at my local EB too. I want an unopened copy. It's an investment in the future, when other gamers figure out how good this game really is!

Yes, I'll put the kids through college on my earnings from selling this gem. :D

[Becky]

More interesting bits from the game files:

H tells Eike after mentioning Hugo's idea to strand Eike's ancestress in the future to erase Eike's existence: "Since I was willing to give you time-travelling powers, you didn't expect me to just sit around, did you? I tested out a few histories - that particular outcome is just a variation on a theme, so it was fairly easy to guess. It's the sort of thing Hugo would think of."

This fits in with the theory that H has been experimenting over and over with how various changes he has made actually work themselves out in various timespaces/worlds. He's tweaking for the best result. Eike and everybody else have been through this possibly millions of times before.

I've come to think that the Original Destiny had Dana finding the stone before Helena's death, and the stone being destroyed to make the Elixir of Life. H from a time he was released centuries before, when he had a different Master (who eventually got him BACK in the stone) is willing to risk everything to keep the stone/himself from being destroyed. His first experiment -- removing Dana as a baby to delay the finding of the stone until after Helena's death, so that Wagner will release H instead of curing Helena.

Then, the first time Wagner does release H, Wagner manages to put H right back in the stone (ending D) so H has to figure out a way to get Wagner to release H again so that H can jump outside the pentagram (ending E). Getting Eike to go back in time and get the stone once again to Wagner is what "tears out the root" of H's Destiny. H is finally released without being put back in the stone. That he had to plot Helena's death, trick Hugo into repeatedly killing his own father, pluck Dana and Margarete out of their true time periods and put Eike through (possibly) millions of deaths to achieve this bothers him not a bit. He's free now, so who cares, really?

H later says to Eike: You managed to preserve my destiny -- if you'd been killed, I would never have been born. Immortality has its perks, but you have to be given life first.

I think the Destiny we've really been changing here first and foremost is H's.

[MysterD]

Grazzt has added two new files to his previous link to the SOD dialogues. One file contains what appear to be entries in Eike’s notebook. I completely ignored Eike’s notebook while playing the game. That was a mistake.

For instance there’s this little tidbit, where Eike writes: “I guess I need those little balls of light to make the Digipad work.” That settles the question as to whether Eike is aware of the power balls.

And another tidbit from the notebook, where Eike writes: “Maybe I can make the elixir….With this stone, I can probably make the elixir. I can free Helena from her illness….I’m sure that’s what I desired in the past.” This seems to me to be an acknowledgement that Eike has finally acknowledged that he IS Wagner.




Ooooooooh, now that's interesting. I figured the...
balls were what made the Pad work. And, the notes on Helena there are interesting, which help hint at Eike Is Wagner theory

[Becky]

MysterD -- you're back!

[MysterD]

MysterD -- you're back!

Missed me? :)

[eriq]

I have been wanting to try Shadow Of Destiny for some time. Judging by this thread, it seems like you guys really like the game. Can you tell me a little bit more about it? How does it fare as an adventure game?

[fov]

How does it fare as an adventure game?

Heh, that's like asking "How does chocolate fare as food?" :D

Shadow of Destiny is by far one of the best & most imaginative games I've ever played. I just love everything about it. If you haven't already, check the AG review here (http://www.adventuregamers.com/article/id,220) and also this thread (http://forums.adventuregamers.com/showthread.php?t=4860).

-emily

[Becky]

Mmmmm...chocolate. Mmmmmm...Shadow of Destiny.

Yes, MysterD, I wondered where you'd gone to. I hope wherever it was, the gaming was good.

[MysterD]

Mmmmm...chocolate. Mmmmmm...Shadow of Destiny.

Yes, MysterD, I wondered where you'd gone to. I hope wherever it was, the gaming was good.

I never left -- I just am always on different message boards all the time.

Oh yuh -- gaming is always good. :)


Been playing a lot of Gothic 2 the last few weeks -- I'm like 35 hours in or so.
Started DTR not too long ago for PC and finished DTR for PC not too long ago.

[stephen w]

Some said about the hidden ending:
It seems as though bringing Margarete permanently forward into time results in H being put back in the stone. Interesting, right?
I don't think this is the case, I belive the Digipad fell out of Eikes hand, hit the ground and a little bit flew of and hit H in the head, causing him to bleed to death. [I saw this b4] but I'm killing myself trying to work out what is going on in the ending, any ideas. When I looked at the sound files they are Stereo but not generated from a 3D source i.e. I can't tell who is walking where. Something to do with the church, why does she say
It's only me now. What are they looking at help.

[fov]

Welcome to the forum. :)

I think Margarete says "It's only me now" in the endings when Hugo dies. She means that he, her father, and her mother are all gone.

She says this is at least one of the endings (I think the one where

the old building collapses on Hugo.)

[stephen w]

Welcome to the forum. :)

I think Margarete says "It's only me now" in the endings when Hugo dies. She means that he, her father, and her mother are all gone.

She says this is at least one of the endings (I think the one where

the old building collapses on Hugo.)

I see [I saw that one, well all of them], so they must be at the house (Hugo body in the rubble). But then why is it a hidden ending? What different, in the A ending I think doesn't H die and Hugo dies or does Hugo diein a different ending - been a while since I played. What makes the hidden ending different???

[stephen w]

Everyone in the USA, no one from Ireland?

[grazzt]

I see [I saw that one, well all of them], so they must be at the house (Hugo body in the rubble). But then why is it a hidden ending? What different, in the A ending I think doesn't H die and Hugo dies or does Hugo diein a different ending - been a while since I played. What makes the hidden ending different???

Maybe just semantics here, but the hidden ending cant be achieved during the game (at least, it hasnt been found), maybe thats why its called hidden. lol.. I dunno. :-)

I think its just garbage Konami left behind by accident.

Too bad Konami doesnt give a rats ass about its users/players. They never respond to emails or anything like that. So we'll probably never know why its there.

And Im from Canada, so not all yanks here. :)

And maybe as an OT, anyone have the files that used to be on my site from way back when? Could swear I have them on cd somewhere, just cant find them. lol.

[stephen w]

Maybe just semantics here, but the hidden ending cant be achieved during the game (at least, it hasnt been found), maybe thats why its called hidden. lol.. I dunno. :-)

I think its just garbage Konami left behind by accident.

Too bad Konami doesnt give a rats ass about its users/players. They never respond to emails or anything like that. So we'll probably never know why its there.

And Im from Canada, so not all yanks here. :)

And maybe as an OT, anyone have the files that used to be on my site from way back when? Could swear I have them on cd somewhere, just cant find them. lol.

I mean - what makes the hidden ending so different that it remained hidden, why hide it?

[AXEL]

amazing game no matter how you play it ... there's always some thing
new

[fov]

Welcome to the forum, AXEL. :)

I agree 100%.

Stephen - sorry for the late response - I don't think there's anything particularly special or different about that ending. They probably just had to cut one of them for whatever reason (time / budget constraints, didn't like the direction the ending went, etc.) and that's the one they picked.

[AXEL]

Thanks alot fav nice meeting you
i've spend alot of time searching for this forum
you have no idea how bad and slow the internet lines here
any way have you been able to get 100% in all chapters ?
am off my head with it and so far i was only able to get 100%
in 7/10 chapters thanks for the reply

[AXEL]

won't be necessary any more i've done it at last
like big rock got of my chest ... lol
thanks any way

[MysterD]

I mean - what makes the hidden ending so different that it remained hidden, why hide it?

Why hide it?

Well, like a good majority of games (in some recent years), games such as KOTOR 2, PS:T, or GTA: SA, games are often heavily worked on by their makers and leave tons of code in the game itself b/c it'd be too much of a hassle to remove the code and all of the content entirely. This can be done for many reasons -- maybe the publisher didn't like the way the story was going from the developers and told them to cut it out and change it, maybe something was not completed by the designers b/c of contract agreements and time restraints limited them so they just quickly blocked the code out so they couldn't destroy the code (in case they decide to re-implement it later w/ a patch) so they can get the game out on the market, maybe they just decided the idea wasn't working so they commented it out quickly, maybe some content was commented out to try and avoid a certain rating from the ESRB, etc etc.

Basically, what designers do is "comment the blocks of code" out of the game from the game actually accessing it -- for you programmers out there, such as all C++ people, you know what I'm talking about. It's basically a quick and dirty way of not allowing the game itself to access such code and material, even though lazily left it in there....

But, I think you might see less of "code commented out," especially if leaving such content lingering there to be hacked back in possibly could cause a shift in the game having a ESRB rating change, after the fiasco that pretty much was caused by GTA: San Andreas' "Hot Coffee" scandal....

[Karmillo]

Erm....

I think its simply because its the final ending, after you have every other ending youve gotten the whole story pretty much

So its then safe for you do do what you need to get the ending that puts everything back the way its supposed to be, cause if you got access to that ending right off then youd pretty much miss out on all of the story

[AXEL]

i like this forum even though i didn't post in it alot :D
it's amazing the way you people talk about this game