Adventure Game Evolution

[Dylan_Dog]

There seems to be quite a few discussions on whether "2d point and click adventures are dead". However, lets try and avoid this as well as the stereotyping and gender/age dividing (as seen in Jim's thread) and lets actually talk about what we think of how the adventure games are evolving and what we think about upcoming titles eg BS3, TL2 etc. Also, feel free to post your ideas about adventure games be it 2d or 3d.

[BacardiJim]

The truth is the point and click 2d "graphic adventures" have been dead for a long time, and they aint coming back.
NOW you want to avoid this kind of commentary? ;)

[Kode]

I personally, don't think anything of the evolution of adventure games. I like my adventures, I play my adventures. I play all my liked adventures, I get new adventure, and if it's good, I learn to like new adventure. And the cycle repeats. ;)

My favorite kind of adventure game is the Monkey Island 1/2/3, Full Throttle, IJ and the Fate of Atlantis, kind of adventure - and thanks to the amateur adventure developing community, my primary interest continues to be represented.

On a similar note, I don't enjoy 3D (Syberia) or First Person (Myst) adventures that much because...umm...it's too big for me. :P Really, though, despite stunning visuals, I can't feel at home while playing something like the above mentioned games. Perhaps I haven't given them much of a chance to impress me (I've only played demos of such games). Maybe someday, I will.

Given that, hopefully, you can see why I enjoy 2D adventure games like those that I mentioned.

Now, BS3 and TLJ2 both look interesting and I personally am willing to expand the walls of my adventure gaming life it they are worthit. We'll just have to wait and see :)

[remixor]

Who needs evolution? We have The Adventure Company!

[Dylan_Dog]

Krkode, I am pretty sure that there will continue to be your type of adventures. I don't think those type of games will ever be forgotten, there will always be a company here or there making those games, and also there will be amateur game developers (like myself). When people say that 2d p&c games are dead they usually think about the mainstream. Before we had games from Revolution, Westwood, Lucas Arts, etc. that were making p&c and now aren't and at the moment there is only Adventure Company that's making the big bucks.
About this evolution thing, it does't have to be a transition from 2d to 3d, it can involve stories evolving, characters evolving, and the depth of the game evolving.

[Dylan_Dog]

Bacardi, you have taken one person out of context and trigged havoc on your thread, now you want to do it here as well? 2d p&c games being dead (and i said this before i think) is a complex subject and depends what angle you view it from. In asnwer to your question - I want to avoid that commentry and all the stereotyping, sub-genres, and age group vs age group crap thats has dominated your thread.
Where were we.......oh yes, this evolution.......

[Tom_K]

My educated guess is that there will always be 2D PNC adventures to some degree or others; the fact that so many excellent developers (Frogwares, House of Tales, etc) still see this as a viable market for an indefinate period of time is a good indicator.

As far as evolution of more mainstream adventures, I see story as the primary evolution, or better yet, focus. Aside, of course, from the obvious technological advances, that's a given - the whole 3D debate and all. That story will be promoted becomes palpable when reading interviews of developers as well as publishers who are looking to capture a larger audience as well as please their current market.

In my estimation, the story is the adventure Atlas, and presentation a close runner up. So I look for more depth of story and expanded character development to create that emotional draw and buy-in which so few games successfully align. At any rate, I'm excited about the future of adventure games - both amatuer and mainstream.

[Ariel Type]

I think that with every step adventures bacome more and more simplified. First there were Interective Fiction, where you have to use your imagination much. You could try different things, a lot of commands you had in use, the games were much more "open".
Then text adventures with pictures appeared, where you have to navigate your character. You still have to use your imagination, but all the commands consisted of 2-3 words, you had less opportunities and the process of the game became more simplified.
When graphical adventures with verb commands appeared, gaming became even much easier, and games became much alike interective cartoons.
No need to say what happened after games became to use just one cursor.
Well, this is just a theory. From the other hand, with graphics the process of game became more interesting as you can see what happens to your character and the surroundings. I'm not talking against graphics, most of my favourite adventures are among them (well, it might be because I began with graphical adventures). But it is the fact that with graphics games became much easier and the had less freedom for actions.
Of course, there were always some exeptions from rule. Legend Entertainment, for example, combined IF with pictures. And its games were really great. But, well, with progress it also have to move to graphical adventuring. Though till the end it used different types of text interface.
But nowadays many games even simplier, like Syberia. Maybe they need more people, from different genres, maybe the developers just lost the originality. And the same goes to console games. As many adventures nowadays are focused for different platforms, there aren't much of adventure gamers on Playstation or Xbox, so the games, I suppose, will be simplified just to get console gamers to use their products.
That's my thoughts.

[Zanthia]

My educated guess is that there will always be 2D PNC adventures to some degree or others; the fact that so many excellent developers (Frogwares, House of Tales, etc) still see this as a viable market for an indefinate period of time is a good indicator.

Exactly. And for 2.5d point and click also.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

http://www.game-research.com/grafik/screenshots/gabrielknight1.jpg http://gamespy.com/articles/june03/syberia2pc/01s.jpg http://www.gamespy.com/previews/august03/urupc/04s.jpg
The past, the present, and the future. Lef to right - Gabriel Knight: The Sins Of The Fathers; Syberia II; Uru: Ages Beyond Myst.

* Reconceptualization and redefinition of the adventure as a genre based on shifting demographics and market - this is where the most crucial progress will take place: rebuilding the adventure from the inside out. It's been proven that a major chunk of adventure gamers are women ages 40 and over. However, there is also a strong upcoming market base of younger gamers, both male and female who, while not having been directly exposed to the original Pong and text based Zork, are growing more curious about adventures as an alternative to FPSs and RPGs. They are discovering the novelty of titles like King's Quest and Maniac Mansion, with their narrative driven gameplay and more cerebral approach to problem solving, and are probably wondering what's happening today with the adventure game. Another potentially strong market is the vanilla mainstreamers or casual gamers who are aware of the growing videogame/movie tie-ins (Matrix, Terminator, Tomb Raider, etc.) and want to investigate the games themselves as options over television or a trip to the cinema.

The 40+ female gamer will be the 'bread-&-butter' of the adventure genre, and will enjoy a steady stream of traditional titles, albeit variedly lacking in high production values because: Much of the investments will be for the more progressive adventure games aimed at the next generation of gamers coming into their own and expecting their class of adventure games to feature far more dynamic things like 3D engines, jawdropping graphics, customizable gameplay and characters, movie quality cinematics, or persistent gameworlds. They are highly skilled with their mouse/keyboard setup and console controls, so there's no issue with them in that department. But, that will also be tempered because a good chunk of the investment will also go towards providing across-the-board accessibility to the casual mainstream gamer, who has no patience to read through manuals or take on a steep learning curve. The final breed of adventure games born of this synthesis will be one that will have a little bit everything for everyone.

* Genre bleeding - what I mean by this is that the more bold developers will allow key features from other genres to seep into the adventure. In the past several years the opposite has been in effect, with first person shooters, strategies, and RPGs borrowing traditional elements from adventures. But in the next several years this practice will be reversed. Puzzles will be based on a dynamic artificial intelligence, real time physics, or randomly generated; players can apply strategy to their gameplay; characters will be imbued with traits and details that are allowed to improve or deteriorate over the course of the game; multiplayer and online play will be offered, as well as cooperative play.

* Refinement - as strikingly exemplified by the upcoming Syberia II, the traditional adventure game will undergo a gradual improvement on all levels, mostly taking on technological characteristics for atmosphere (real time shadows and lighting, facial expressions, lip syncing, motion capture, etc.), and new narrative expositions (cinematic closeups, edits, etc.). The more innovative adventures (i.e. real time 3D, online multiplayer, episodic, etc.) will enjoy far more dramatic improvements (new gameworlds and puzzles monthly, physics, sweeping in-game cinematics, etc.).

* Technological progress - this is inevitable, but as the I stated above, it's for all practical purposes. In this case, as a viable way to tap into new markets.


These are my thoughts in progress, so I'll probably post more ideas later.

[ragnar]

I think I agree on all Intrepid said, only he should have used a more sensible font. ;)

I would like to add that I think future AG.s will have some more elements of character AI to allow for a more individual response to your actions, so that everything you do will change the way the characters you meet will see you. If you treat them bad, they will treat you bad, etc. Now AI is a difficult area, so in the short-term future these things will not be a large part, but it will get more and more influence on AG:s in the future I think.

[Jackal]

Couldn't agree more on character and dynamic puzzle AI, and the other points listed under Intrepid's "Genre bleeding". Designers will continually strive to make their games more immersive, and adventures should be no exception in terms of innovation. (But yes, I'll throw in the disclaimer du jour that there's always a place for the current standards to remain and thrive among the hardcore).

Certainly one of the EASIER things that could be implemented in the short term is multiple puzzle solutions, even without dynamic AI. There's simply no excuse for forcing players to play "read the developer's mind" repeatedly throughout a game. Cat caught in a tree? Find a ladder and problem solved. Or grab a bowl of milk and a catnip toy and entice it down. Or call the fire department. Or... Right - the point is, don't limit the player with needless linearity. For some, this will create replayability. But at worst, you've given the player the feeling that they have some control over their situation.

I'm less sold on the idea of branching paths, but I sure as heck wouldn't discourage it.

[BacardiJim]

"Multiple puzzle solutions" has already been tried in several adventure games, with varying degrees of success. Post Mortem, for instance, offers you three different ways to get into the first locked door you encounter. Titanic: Adventure Out of Time allows you more than one way to pursue some of the "key" items in the game. Journeyman Project 3 had one section that could be completed at least two different ways. Unfortunately, providing varied solutions to a puzzle/situation is still a rarity when you encounter it. It is certainly one facet of adventure gaming that I would love to see used more frequently.

[ragnar]

"Multiple puzzle solutions" has already been tried in several adventure games, with varying degrees of success. Post Mortem, for instance, offers you three different ways to get into the first locked door you encounter. Titanic: Adventure Out of Time allows you more than one way to pursue some of the "key" items in the game. Journeyman Project 3 had one section that could be completed at least two different ways. Unfortunately, providing varied solutions to a puzzle/situation is still a rarity when you encounter it. It is certainly one facet of adventure gaming that I would love to see used more frequently.

Play Maniac Mansion. There are lot of possible solutions to that game.

[BacardiJim]

You're right, ragnar. It's been so long since I played it that it slipped my mind. I'm sure there are others. My point was that such games are still relatively rare, and, like Singer, I'd like to see more of them.

[Jackal]

It's still a rarity, and even when it's encountered, it's usually an isolated incident or two within the game, which is unfortunate. I credit any game that at least tries to incorporate some, but I don't want to be thrown a bone. I think entire games need to include a philosophy of multiple solutions.

Did Maniac Mansion have multiple puzzle solutions? Now that I'm reminded, I do have a vague recollection of that. I'd love to say I'll go back and check it out again, but I'd be lying. ;) Curse of Monkey Island also had multiple solutions, though those were separated by difficulty levels. Huh! Guess those LucasArts folks knew something about games! *D

[Kode]

Krkode, I am pretty sure that there will continue to be your type of adventures. I don't think those type of games will ever be forgotten, there will always be a company here or there making those games, and also there will be amateur game developers (like myself). When people say that 2d p&c games are dead they usually think about the mainstream. Before we had games from Revolution, Westwood, Lucas Arts, etc. that were making p&c and now aren't and at the moment there is only Adventure Company that's making the big bucks.
About this evolution thing, it does't have to be a transition from 2d to 3d, it can involve stories evolving, characters evolving, and the depth of the game evolving.

I didn't really mention my opinions on the evolution of stories, and characters because I don't believe they exactly evolve. There'll always be good stories, there'll always be bad stories. There'll almost always be every kind of story and character.

As for depth of games, I get the impression that while the games of yesterday seem to go into more detail into fewer things, the games of today go into less detail but into more things. This is probably just because of today's technological capabilities. They do it because they can...or something like that. :D I don't really have any examples of this; I don't even know if I've explained my opinion well...if you feel the same way (or otherwise), feel free to help. Perhaps I haven't played many old games - for that matter, I haven't played many new adventure games, either. (I'm just beginning). Weather this is a good thing or not, I'm not sure. Do I want my game playing experience to be like that of a movie or that of a book? The former being more superficial and the latter being otherwise. I personally prefer to play a bookish game. Sure I like my games to look good, but like has been mentioned many a time, I like to enjoy the story, the temporary company of well made characters, and the satisfaction of completing well made puzzles. One of the best puzzles I've come across (in terms of the satisfaction in the aftermath) was the Monkey Island I Safe puzzle. *D

Either way, my original answer, expressing my preference of older games was partially based on what I have just explained as well as what I earlier explained.

[Dylan_Dog]

Yeah, this concept of advanced AI in adventure games sounds exciting. As ragnar mentioned, it probably won't be dominant in the short term, but I will love to see it sometime in the near future.
Example - your protagonist is in a busy street somewhere in downtown metropolis. You are investigating something or maybe you just happen to be there. There are people around you, cars, taxis etc. Out of nowhere someone walks up to you and initiates a conversation (and this is not scripted or part of the plot).
Little things like that, although are irrelevant to an actual story, make it more believable, like you are actually there. Another thing with AI - dynamics. People don't have to be in their permanent locations. Your friend "Joe" doesn't have to be in his apartment all the time. He might be down at the park, or in the supermarket or simply not in the apartment. You might bump into him on the street or he might call you on the cell phone. These kind of things have been done in adventure games before eg. Blade Runner, Beneath A Steel Sky, Gabriel Knight, however, they are scripted and defined based on certain actions or time slots. But giving characters personality, regardless if they are 2d or 3d, is a huge advancement.

[twifkak]

Certainly one of the EASIER things that could be implemented in the short term is multiple puzzle solutions, even without dynamic AI. There's simply no excuse for forcing players to play "read the developer's mind" repeatedly throughout a game. Cat caught in a tree? Find a ladder and problem solved. Or grab a bowl of milk and a catnip toy and entice it down. Or call the fire department. Or... Right - the point is, don't limit the player with needless linearity. For some, this will create replayability. But at worst, you've given the player the feeling that they have some control over their situation.
The problem is that until somebody comes up with a universal physics engine (and no -- Havok doesn't do anything put let people push stuff), it'll just be "read one of the developer's minds." For now, the dev still has to think up a number of solutions to script them in -- and then he has to balance the solutions by making sure the problem retains some level of difficulty.

[pleto4_ryan]

the evolution of adventures are towards the ultimate interaction and the fake of real-life :P

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Well, D'uh, pleto! Or at least some adventures. :D

[Zanthia]

the evolution of adventures are towards the ultimate interaction and the fake of real-life :P
Usually its called 'virtual reality' :)

[James]

Of music I often say there are two types - good and bad, all other division is secondary. Perhaps we should begin a similar mindset here?