"The Point-and-Click Adventure is Dead" - An Editorial

[BacardiJim]

“The Point-and-Click Adventure is Dead.”

This statement from Revolution honcho Charles Cecil polarized the adventure gaming community; alienating some while being loudly applauded by others. It reflects an attitude frequently seen in various adventure gaming forums (AG, JA+, GB, etc.): “Storyline and puzzling are great, but what I really want in a game is something that looks totally cool!” This is not a surprising attitude from either gamers or from the industry. When almost any sector of the entertainment industry looks to target a particular demographic, it is traditionally 14-28 year old males (preferably Caucasian). Statistically, this is the group that is seen as being most likely to spend their disposable income on non-essential luxury/impulse/entertainment products. And it was at exactly this demographic that Cecil’s comment was targeted.

Sales figures from the gaming industry as a whole support this young-male bias. Platform games both outnumber and outsell PC games by a wide margin. What PC titles do sell best are the twitch-action titles and the relatively recent influx of real-time strategy games that take advantage of web-based P2P communication to allow you to compete against players from around the world. (Of course, the more graphically violent the RTS, the better.) These titles are purchased almost exclusively by young (under age 30) males.

Is it surprising that this group of consumers choose to purchase these kinds of games? Not at all; it’s what they were raised on. The point-and-click adventure simply does not (and cannot, for obvious reasons) exist in an arcade, which is where many gamers get their start. By the time a young gamer gets his first gaming platform, he is already a “twitcher.” And instead of his PS2 opening up a whole new world of gaming experiences, what it mostly offers him is more of the same. The huge majority of platform games are variations on shooters, flyers and jumpers. The main difference comes in how these games are presented and controlled. The more “realistic” (read 3D) the game, the better. The brainwashing is further reinforced by the advertising for the games. Over the last five years, the only platform games that are not action-based that have had national television ad campaigns are the Final Fantasy games. By the time our typical gamer graduates to PC games, the mold is already cast.

So you get a tidy little self-contained circle. Young male gamers are indoctrinated into expecting a certain type of graphics and gameplay. They spend their money on games that meet these expectations. Game developers see these market trends and produce more games of that type. The marketing of these games further fuels the gamer’s dependence on the same type of game, and he buys more of them. Ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

But where folks like Mr. Cecil and other adherents of the “point-and-click is dead” philosophy have missed the boat is by equating game players with adventure game players. Take a look around almost any adventure game forum and you will soon be struck by one glaringly obvious fact. The women outnumber the men three or four to one! The typical adventure gamer is not a male under 30, but rather a woman over 40! She is a retired/semi-retired professional or stay-at-home mom. While she does not have as much disposable income as a 24-year-old single guy, she will spend an average of around $30 a month on adventure games. She does not like action sequences in her game. She will list The Longest Journey, Syberia, and possibly Myst/Riven or one of the Gabriel Knight games as her all-time favorites. While she likes a game to look “pretty,” she is more concerned with the story or the puzzles than whether the game is presented in 2D, 3D, or Tesseract-O-Vision. The more complicated the interface, the less likely she will be to finish the game or recommend it to others. Because she hasn’t honed her skills on arcade and platform twitch games, she does not want to have to press several buttons at once, and would prefer to not have to use her keyboard at all.

And all the pressure in the world from her male peers or from the industry itself isn’t going to change this. Perhaps because they aren’t indoctrinated into a mind-set of violence (either in the real world or in their game worlds) from a young age, the female adventurer will usually prefer a thoughtful solution over a violent one. She will always value a good story over how realistic it looks when some monster gets its head torn off. She will prefer a “wait and let me think about it” approach over rushing in with guns blazing, leaping to a convenient vine and timing her swing across the chasm to land safely on the other side.

And no matter how the industry tries to change adventure games to attract the “mainstream” game buyer, she will always, always be the core demographic of the adventure game market. And that demographic group is growing larger and larger every year! Game developers who refuse to recognize this and insist that more complicated controls or different graphic perspectives are the “future” of adventure gaming are doomed to eventual failure. They need to wake up and smell the Geritol.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Unh oh. The seeds of yet another controversy have been planted. :D

[grabs a huge bowl of herb spiced popcorn and waits for the fireworks]

[Dylan_Dog]

The truth is the point and click 2d "graphic adventures" have been dead for a long time, and they aint coming back. Lets look forward to the future of adventure games.
My thread on adventure game philosophy has raised about 100 or so good points since its implementation regarding the adventure games, and it poses a very good question - "what is an adventure game?". Like charles said, they are dead, what he means is that there is a better form to express the adventure games in. He also means that you can't make a dime out of those games any more and you are very lucky if you do (i.e. TLJ, Syberia).

[BacardiJim]

Dylan.... you very picturesquely illustrated my point for me. Thank you. :D

[emma]

Being somewhat of that demographic group described above, I tend to agree. Even though I cringe at the use of the word "pretty" and "geritol", LMAO, there's a tremendeous truth in it.

When this first was started to be argued around on the boards I several times tried to bring up the fact that there is a strong, monetary group out there that is consistantly overlooked when discussing point and click vs. keyboard. Why speak of it as dead, when it in fact is something very much alive for some of us? It's like stating your money aren't good enough for us.

However, basically we gotta play the games that the developers choose to make. If this means trying out something that contains elements that aren't demographically aimed at us, I suppose we will to some extent. But disregarding the potential income, calling the use of point and click dead, is a bad business decision me thinks.

[BacardiJim]

I wouldn't worry if I were you, emma. Despite all the strutting pronouncements by the Men In Power about what is or isn't dead and what is or isn't an adventure game, Dreamcatcher/The Adventure Company has become the world's largest distributor of adventure games in just a few short years. They are one of Canada's 10 fastest-growing companies. And how did they get there? By distributing primarily point-and-click adventure games.

It's easy for a game developer to make factual-sounding but erroneous declarations about the state of adventure gaming. And even easier for male gamers who do not make up the core adventure game demographic to do so. But the publishers/distributors know which side their bread is buttered on. ;) I guarantee you that TAC isn't going to stop publishing point-and-clickers for a long, long time.

[nordic_guy]

I think most of the problem is that the adventure genre just wouldn't move forward with the rest of the gaming industry and got stuck with the old 2d point and click. It was about time someone took the move with Grim Fandango and EFMI (and TLJ and Syberia somewhat).
I also think that pleasing the adventure crowd just isn't enough anymore, as there's not as much of us as there used to be. Your game has got to appeal to a whole bunch of people, and the mainstream gamers just don't say: "Hey, look at that game. Endless hours of pixel hunting and slow conversations. Wohoo!".
Sad.
But I think with more titles like Broken Sword 3, they are starting to catch up.

O/T: Emma, this has been on my mind for days. What the **** is that thingy in your avatar? :confused:

[emma]

hmmmm, why do I get a feeling this will turn into two discussions in one? I'd say that there is NOTHING that prevents the genre to "move forward". I mean, if a developer/publisher/gamemaker decides to do whatever with their game it's totally their right, nothing to argue there. But that doesn't necessarily mean point-and-click is dead.

Like several stated in the philosophy thread, many if not most, people think that keyboard/p&c/2D/3D is mere dressing for a potentially good adventure game. Granted, whichever way is used might turn some people off, I know several that would probably choose not to play a keyboard driven game because that would take away focus on the game itself for them. But keys or mouse does not make or break an adventure if you look at the game itself.

[emma]

O/T: Emma, this has been on my mind for days. What the **** is that thingy in your avatar? :confused:

LOL! I'm not saying! :devil:

[BacardiJim]

Errrrr.... what problem, Nordic_Guy?

There is no problem for the majority of adventure gamers... except that people who don't know what they like or want in a game feel empowered to make decisions and philosophical declarations for them.

Reread the editorial. Neither you nor Dylan_Dog are part of the largest single sector of adventure game fans/consumers. You should listen to Emma.

[nordic_guy]

Errrrr.... what problem, Nordic_Guy?

There is no problem for the majority of adventure gamers... except that people who don't know what they like or want in a game feel empowered to make decisions and philosophical declarations for them.
I'm not talking about adventure gamers, I'm talking about gamers. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear. I don't think it's enough to please the adventuregamers because we're not such a huge group.
An adventuregame has got to appeal to the general crowd as well.

Emma: I'm not sure if I wanna guess, so we'll leave it at that. ;)

[hagstrumpa]

I am, like Emma, part of the demographic group you described, althought I am not over 40. :)
I agree with you both (Emma and BacardiJim). I spend a lot of money on adventure games and although I have bought a PS2 fairly recently I consider myself a "PC person". I want to put my money on the games I like, and the games I like are mostly 2D, point-and-click adventures. I can understand that the game developers want the big bucks by attracting the mainstream gamers but I don't think that smoothing the genres out altoghther is going to make that happen.
By the way - I am really looking forward to BS3 - the first adventure game I am going to buy for the PS2 :P

[BacardiJim]

Nordic_Guy:

Look at the sales figures for The Adventure Company for the last year. (And remember that it was a division of Dreamcatcher that was so successful that it was split off into its own subsidiary.) Then tell me that "adventure gamers" aren't a large enough group to determine for themselves what they do or don't want in a product.

What you don't like is that when it comes to "adventure gamers," your opinion suddenly is the minority one. As is Dylan's. How about if instead of going around telling the majority of adventure gamers what the problems with their games are and how things should be...you ask a few of the core demographic for their opinion?

Then get back to me. ;)

[BacardiJim]

Thank you, hagstrumpa. :) I consider this thread part editorial... part public service.

[Marek]

Hmmmmmm, I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Firstly, your whole argument falls apart when you take into consideration that Broken Sword 3 doesn't have any action :D

Also, the casual 40+ adventure gamer is already being targeted by The Adventure Company, Got Game, etc. It's what made these companies succesful. This demographic is where adventure games are succesful at the moment. There's not much to improve there.

I'm not sure if your description of the 30-something gamer is accurate. A large part of this demographic are actually people who played games on their C64 or 286 pc. People who still remember text adventures and turn-based strategy games that required 500-page manuals to understand. These hardcore gamers have grown up and are demanding more profound games. I am absolutely positive they'd love to play more graphic adventures, if only they got with the times and try to introduce some 3D, cinematic style, non-linearity, character AI, etc. You're making them sound like they're all graphics-crazy technofreaks, but I think that's just not true.

I, for one, would love to see adventure developers target the 25-35 audience much more, as they're going to be much more demanding in terms of innovation, technology, etc. (I don't mean technology as in "more polygons" but technology that allows to convey more emotion, give the designer more dramatic techniques, makes the game more replayable, etc. etc.) Most importantly I'd LOVE to see adventure games steal some ideas from other genres.

I still think Charles Cecil has been grossly misinterpreted. He doesn't mean that point-and-click adventures are no longer commercially viable, or that no one plays them. He meant that they're *creatively* dead, and that nothing interesting or new is happening within this type of interface.

By the way, I'm actually in the process of writing an editorial on this. It would great to compare each other's views on this.

[Christina]

I suppose I am in the 'target demographic' at least somewhat. I am a girl, but I am nowhere near the age of 40+. :)

"She will always value a good story over how realistic it looks when some monster gets its head torn off. She will prefer a “wait and let me think about it” approach over rushing in with guns blazing"

While this is true to an extent, it certainly doesn't encapsule me completely. Adventures are my first love, but that doesn't mean that I don't also like to go on occasional shooting sprees in GTA. :)

While I don't think 'PNC' adventures will ever completely disappear, I do believe the the genre needs to make a concerted effort to step forward. We are seeing the first signs of this with BS3 and TLJ2.

As I was about to say, before Marek beat me to the punch, he wrote the perfect counter point editorial to this one and I'm sure interesting discussions will be sparked on the forum with people taking sides as to who they agree with.

I would've really liked to add a whole lot more to this post but it is 1:30am and I need to get up in about, oh, 4 hours. :)

[remixor]

Um, I think we should bear in mind that Cecil's FULL quote was "The point and click adventure is dead. Long live the adventure!" BacardiJim noted that Cecil was talking about point-and-clicks in his initial post (though didn't include the second part), but in further responses in this thread, people seem to be interpreting Cecil as somehow declaring the death of the entire genre--kind of stupid, coming from the the man at the helm of what is certainly the most important adventure game in quite a while. Cecil was simply expressing his belief that a particular interface system is becoming outmoded. For one thing, point-and-click just doesn't work as well in a real-time 3d environment. I understand that you're saying the majority of the adventure-playing demographic doesnt care about things like real-time 3d environment, but I think that people like Cecil are trying to EXPAND that demographic, not maintain the status quo. And despite all stats and demographics and what have you, it is a simple fact that an adventure that sells well for an adventure is not necessarily selling well for a game. Yes, The Adventure Company is doing pretty well, but keep in mind that they've very much oversaturated the market, and while that might be financially helpful for them in the short term, it sure doesn't give a good impression of the genre. No matter how you look at it, the genre is going to have to progress. I can't even begin to imagine that Emma, our representative of the adventure demographic, would say she's very disappointed in Broken Sword 3. Would you, Emma? (/me hopes not ;)) There is no reason that excellent writing, characters, and puzzles have to come at the cost of progressive technology. And Emma, I understand your continued love for point-and-clicks; hell, the only non-P+C adventure I've loved is Grim Fandango. I'm about as old-school a gamer as they come. However, it just seems really odd to me to consider that the quality of a game is honestly determined in any large part by its control system. I remember when games first started to come out for Windows, and I steadfastly resisted the change from DOS. I didn't have a mouse at all until much later than most people did. And I was already enjoying adventure games at the time--no point and click, because there was nothing to click with. When I finally gave up the fight, it wasn't as bad as I'd imagined. The current transition away from P+C seems a lot less radical than that, and particularly with the aid of hindsight, I think it's reasonable to say "Well, I don't have to stop playing my old P+C favorites, but the adventure scene is changing a bit, and if it manages to breathe some new life into what's becoming a very stagnant genre, so much the better." And while I'm the first one to downplay the necessity of fancy graphics in a game (believe me), it's difficult to deny that a more beautiful game world will result in a more immersive and overall more enjoyable game.

Anyway, bottom line: I sympathise with people who still feel there is a place for point-and-clicks. Maybe I sound like some radical revolutionary or something, but I'm a lot more traditional than most gamers. However, keeping the genre alive is more important to me than hanging on to a need for things like a particular control system. I'm sure there will be developers who continue to release point-and-clicks, but let's face it: a GOOD adventure takes a fair deal of money to make, and to make them more profitable than they are now (which isn't very profitable within the world of gaming), the genre must appeal to more gamers. I believe this is possible, and companies like Revolution will hopefully achieve it. Hats off to Cecil.



EDIT: after posting this thread and noticing its length, it occurs to me that it may be a bit jumbled up. Sorry 'bout that, but I can't be arsed to proofread now ;)

EDIT2: wow, two more posts since I hit the "Reply" button. Hopefully nothing in here is TOO redundant.

[BacardiJim]

Marek: I never said BS3 was an action game. As a springboard for my editorial I referenced what has become a notorious quote from Charles Cecil (in his discussion of BS3) that declared a controversial stance about the adventure gaming industry as a whole.

By your own admission, those companies that have catered to the actual central demographic group of adventure gamers have been a success. Yet you still want to tell these foundations of the adventure game marketplace that their wants/desires aren't as important as yours... the "fringe" adventure gamer.

You are, in fact, making the same mistake that Mr. Cecil made. Because you are a gamer who likes some adventure games, you are equating gamers with adventure gamers.

I propose an experiment: Go search out and find a typical 50-year-old adventure gamer (of either gender). Explain to him/her how he/she will enjoy the game much more if he/she puts down the mouse and uses the keyboard to navigate and perform his/her many actions. Better yet, demonstrate how using the mouse and the keyboard at the same time makes a game even better. Convince them that their lack of keyboard coordination is their own problem and that the game is outstanding anyway.... they are just to old and decrepit to realize it.

And the whole time you are doing this, keep repeating to that person that you know he/she is one of adventure gaming's prime consumers, but you don't care. You are going to force them to like what you like so developers will make the games you want. Because you know what's best for the industry.

See how far it gets you.

Now.... do that a few hundred thousand times. And go back and explain to your boss why suddenly adventure game sales are down 70% because you alienated the major core sales demographic group.

[Christina]

Because you are a gamer who likes some adventure games, you are equating gamers with adventure gamers.


I think that comment is pretty baseless. He started this site. He is more than 'a gamer who likes some adventure games.'

He loves adventure games, as do I and wants to see them not only survive, but improve. There's nothing wrong with that.

[remixor]

No offense, BacardiJim, but I think your last post was rather absurd. For one thing, adventure games do not require quick reflexes or particular manual dexterity, even those with direct control. Furthermore, I'd expect even a 50+ adventure gamer to be accustomed to using a keyboard, it being a fairly common input method for computers in general. I can't imagine it would be the end of the world to get them to figure out what keys like "left", "right", "up", and "down", as well as a maybe a couple others, do.

That entirely aside, your last post just seems a bit contrived. Obviously, you are pulling those statistics out of thin air. It's hard for me to take your predictions seriously.

Also, calling Marek "a gamer who likes some adventure games" is rather presumptuous, considering he's the founder of one of the best (arguable THE best) adventure gaming sites on the internet. And as far as the second part of your sentence, it may be healthy sometimes to equate gamers with adventure gamers. I don't think you are correct in saying that's what Marek was doing, but at least if one DOES look at it from that point of view, perhaps it will eventually lead other people besides this apparently entirely-50-plus-decrepit user base to become interested in our beloved genre (anyone else find it a bit odd that we don't seem to have an overwhelming presence of decrepit 50 year olds on these forums?).

[BacardiJim]

I don't deny that some hazy day in the future when we have eliminated logical thought in favor of quick reflexes (we're well on our way) and spent the money on health care for the aging so that their fingers are as nimble as a 20-year-old's (in a pig's eye) that a more complex/complexly-controlled game world won't be the norm for adventure games. But with the tail-end of the Baby Boom just now turning 40 (and therefore the "aged" population doing nothing but growing for a good long while) and given the fact that as a general statistical guideline, this segment of the population has a significant economic impact on the adventure game market, I think the proclaimed "death" of point-and-click is a good 20 years premature.

I can only hope that my gnarled fingers will be able to cope with whatever interface we have then.

[remixor]

Yeah, those arrow keys are pretty devious.

[BacardiJim]

And this particular forum is the anomaly in that it doesn't have three 40+ female regulars for every other regular. Go check out the other adventure game forums.

[BacardiJim]

I apologize for the "you are a gamer who likes some adventure games" comment. It was baseless and incorrect, Marek. I can only plead the tired old "got caught up in the debate" excuse.

My apologies. :sad:

[Erwin_Br]

Interesting... I believe this is the first time I've seen someone using medical condition and age as arguments to use a certain type of control.

this segment of the population has a significant economic impact on the adventure game market

Well, they better start designing games with extra large fonts then, because my poor eyes might not be able to read small fonts in a resolution of 1600 by 1200 pixels when I turn 50. :P

--Erwin

[BacardiJim]

I am not personally advocating any particular type of interface. I can't believe I let myself (and the thrust of the editorial) get sidetracked like this.

Fact: Older (40+) women make up the largest single sector of the adventure game market.

Fact: As a general rule, these women are comfortable with and enjoy a point-and-click interface.

Fact: These woman aren't going to willingly sit back and just accept changes to their favorite style of gameplay without some kind of fuss.

Opinion: The adventure game industry as a whole is likely to suffer more (for the next several years) from the alienation of this economic group than it is likely to gain from the attempt to draw in the more mainstream gamer. Thus the declaration of the death of p-n-c is premature.

Fair enough?

[emma]

Okay, I'm not over forty, just wanted to point that out. Not being exactly IN the demographic group, but close enough to understand the reasoning behind it!

No, remixor I'm not going to say I'm disappointed in BS3, and that's because I haven't played it. I was very disappointed of Cecil's statement, but I do realize where it comes from, that it's not DIRECTLY aimed at me. But indirectly I have to pay the price when discussing it in here, for instance. I have felt slightly battered in the discussions about it. I have been accused of being a stick in the mud, against technology and stuff like that, when I'm only trying to say there's nothing wrong with liking p&c also. I have said it a gazillion times, I don't understand why one must rule the other out?

And before you're making cracks about physical hindrance to use the keyboard, there are actually some quite formidable profiles in this cyber group of adventure gaming, that has problems using keyboards. Now, it's no reason to disallow keyboard controls, obviously, but I don't want it to become a big joke, because there are people having to deal with those issues. Just imagine if you suddenly became blind one day, and couldn't spend time playing games that you love so much? Not hard to be empathic, I should say when it concerns matters like these.

[BacardiJim]

It's the old "speed up or get out of the way" philosophy of the young, emma. They don't yet grasp that we're the ones who vote, own property and businesses, hold most public offices, make most public policy decisions, pay (or choose NOT to pay) their wages, and make the laws.

They just resent us for our slow fingers.

Talk to these same guys in 20 years and see if their attitudes have changed. ;)
____________
This has nothing to do with the thread...purely off-topic. Just a little commiserating here.

[Erwin_Br]

It's the old "speed up or get out of the way" philosophy of the young, emma. They don't yet grasp that we're the ones who vote, own property and businesses, hold most public offices, make most public policy decisions, pay (or choose NOT to pay) their wages, and make the laws.

They just resent us for our slow fingers.

Talk to these same guys in 20 years and see if their attitudes have changed. ;)


I didn't know Cecil was that young :P

--Erwin

[BacardiJim]

*sigh*

I wasn't talking about Charles Cecil.

[ragnar]

I am not personally advocating any particular type of interface. I can't believe I let myself (and the thrust of the editorial) get sidetracked like this.

Fact: Older (40+) women make up the largest single sector of the adventure game market.

Fact: As a general rule, these women are comfortable with and enjoy a point-and-click interface.

Fact: These woman aren't going to willingly sit back and just accept changes to their favorite style of gameplay without some kind of fuss.

Opinion: The adventure game industry as a whole is likely to suffer more (for the next several years) from the alienation of this economic group than it is likely to gain from the attempt to draw in the more mainstream gamer. Thus the declaration of the death of p-n-c is premature.

Fair enough?
So, where are your references to these "facts". Facts that's only based on "what I have seen on some internet forums" are quite useless facts.

That's a first. Secondly I would very much dislike if the AG designers got up and make games targeted at one or another group. I want them to make good stories that they themselves would like, not just make a game targeted at young males, older women or three-leged transsexuals with bald heads. Such targeting usually just lessens the games scope and makes it less interesting.

[Marek]

Don't worry BacardiJim. I'm not that easily offended :)

The way I see it, nearly all new adventure games are suitable to/targeted at the target audience you described. Along comes a rare game like Broken Sword 3, that does something that possibly appeals more to a different crowd (if that's true, anyway) and then it's suddenly considered a threat to the current style of adventure games. I don't understand how this discussion can be about "alienation of an economic group" when that economic group is 95% of what's being serviced right now. I don't have any cold figures to support that, but it seems every major adventure game publisher is either aiming at kids (Humongous' games, Nancy Drew) or the older, more mainstream audience of which a large part is female.

I think there's a group not being catered to here. I disagree that people around my age aren't interested in adventure games. They just haven't seen any good ones for the past six years. They're more interested in other genres that do still manage to surprise and amaze. A new creative impulse is needed to get the hardcore back to adventure gaming. I hope BS3, TLJ2, etc. will help kick that off.

[BacardiJim]

Marek: I mostly agree with you. Mostly.

I wasn't pointing any accusatory fingers at any particular publisher. As you pointed out, the publishers of adventure games are, in fact, catering to where they know their audience is. They know where they get their money and aren't out to alienate that marketshare.

The only finger I intended to point was at those (mostly male fans) who insist on criticizing the adventure game industry as a whole for the fact that they are doing exactly what they are doing... making the majority of their consumers happy. And those who are thereby criticizing that adventure fan base for liking what they like. I'm sorry, but bold declarations like, "The 2D point-and-click adventure is not only dead but has been for a couple of years" rattle my cage, because they are not only patently false (look at the sales figures), but are insulting to the majority of adventure gamers.

Could adventure gaming stand a breath of fresh air? Absolutely! Personally, if I have to do the poke-the-key-out-of-the-lock-onto-the-piece-of-paper puzzle again, I am going to go postal.

Is complicating the interface to allow for 3D perspective the fresh air panacea? I am skeptical. And yes, it risks alienating the established consumer base in the hopes of building a different/younger/male one.

There is still room for amazing creativity in the point-and-click adventure. Such games as Blue Ice, The Last Express, Cosmology of Kyoto, Faust, Titanic, Obsidian, Blade Runner and Salammbo prove that. It is unfair to write off the interface or perspective of the game as the culprit. And it is (in my opinion) wrong to force an unwanted interface change upon the core group of adventure gamers to make up for the creative shortcomings of game designers.

But most of all, it is wrong (or at least bad business) to tell those adventure gamers who make up the core group of the market that their money isn't wanted anymore because it is easier to rethink a game's perspective than to rethink its puzzles. To tell them that despite their being the genre's biggest supporters, what they want isn't important. That it is "dead."

Can we agree on that?

[Wormsie]

remixor: Please! Write! Shorter! Paragraphs!!

(Not having read ost things that are said in this thread - I'm on a five-minutes long break - I ust add that the amateur 2d pojnt-and-click comminuty is thriving.)

[Wajus]

Jesus people! Deadworm is right. Can't you sum up your ideas and theories in a couple of sentences instead of whole-huge paragraphs?

In my opinion Charles Cecil had all the right to say that p&c is dead. It was already dead long time ago, when Myst came. Just think about to whom, when and where he was talking that "P&C is DEAD". It was ECTS, huge press conference, journalists from all around the world (from Poland too, I stiil remember the "shocking" ;) BS3 Ects coverage). The point is that he wasn't just talking to adventure community but to/and about whole gaming industry. Because frankly said p&c have been dead for mainstream for a really long time now. Sure TLJ's and Syberia's sales were impressive on adventure field but when it comes to judging it on a more general market/basis they were rather moderate (especially later Syberia's sales are very symbolic - only half of TLJ's sales - 250.000 against more than 550.000).

I also don't understand all this "dimi-and-the-likes" kinda talk about treachery or "what players really want" and what Revolution owes to gamers. They owe us nothing. Actually it's quite the opposite. It's like with getting job-promotion, if you got one you will propably go to your boss and thank him for it - if you do so I tell you are sucker. You owe this promotion only to yourself and your hard-work, promotion is the sign that it is company that needs you and prospers better because of you. Not the other way round.

Analogically... maybe Revolution Software are very fortunate that they managed to find a thing they love to do and make living out of it, surely they are happy we buy their games and cherish them. But everything they earned they own to their hard, honest work, they took the risk of making decisions on their own. They don't have to explain themselves because they take the full responsibility for either their succes or failure - they always did.

Keep up the good work Revolution!

:rolleyes: Heh, huge paragraphs those ain't I hope...

[Tamara]

Take a look around almost any adventure game forum and you will soon be struck by one glaringly obvious fact. The women outnumber the men three or four to one! The typical adventure gamer is not a male under 30, but rather a woman over 40!

Now, I don't entirely agree. Look at this forum - relatively few females, and an average age of about 20. Look at the amateur adventure community, arguably the most hardcore 2D point and click fans, same there. (Lots of whom would argue just as strongly as you in favour of 2D, so I think you're stereotyping, somewhat .. )

In any case, I don't think anyone is forcing anything on anyone. Regardless of what BS3 is like, DC and other companies will keep on making their games .. nobody will come with a gun to your head and make you play BS3 if you don't want to. Nobody is saying there should be no point and click games. Just that there should be those games AND other ones that try out new things. What's so wrong with that?

[Jen]

Out of the four adventure forums that I know of, Gameboomers, Just Adventure, here, and FFC, I would posit that only Gameboomers is predominantly 40+ women. I'm just guessing here based on gut feeling, but I think JA is made up of mostly 40- and pretty evenly divided among gender lines. FFC is largely 40+ but pretty evenly divided among gender lines. AG comprises the target audience for all games, the fabled 18-24 male.

I am a 40+ woman with enough disposable income (not even close to retired) to buy whatever game I fancy. I am also one of those who wishes adventure gaming would keep up with gaming as a whole and offer up some new and innovative ideas. I don't care about the interface, as long as it's functional. I don't care about 2D/3D/Smell-O-Vision. I will, however, pulll all of my hair out strand by strand screaming like a maniac all the while if I ever have to play another cookie-cutter maze sliding-tile pixel-hunting Dreamcatcher adventure gaming goodness point-and-clickfest rehash of every adventure gaming cliche known to mankind.

[Fairygdmther]

I am new to this forum - I joined in reply to a link to this thread posted by Bacardi Jim in another forum. Who am I? I am one of the demographic that BJ spoke of, though I don't yet consider myself of the geritol set. While I'm sure it would be difficult to ascertain actual adventure gaming statistics, my own experience, in 3 other adv forums totally supports BJ's claim, ie. 3/4 of the members are female, most are perhaps 35+, if not actually 40+, as BJ says. While that does not quite make us ready for the walkers and diapers of a nursing home, it does make a large number of us old enough to be able to have the disposable income, with children of adult age, if we have them (I don't). As one of the older "baby boomers", I recognize what a large segment of the population we represent, the majority of which, at the median age of 50, are female.

While I will grant that most of this baby boomer age group probably doesn't even play computer games, many do, and more and more are finding this form of entertainment. Last year, the console and PC games outlay exceeded the movies income for the first time worldwide. I own an Xbox, PS2, and Dreamcast, and do play them, but my first love is PC games, and my niche is definitely adv games. While I'm reasonably comfortable with a gamepad, I DO prefer the P&C style games. I heard so many great things about Grim Fandango, for example, that I had to get it. I loved the concept, but I couldn't get Manny to go where I wanted him to with the keyboard control. I switched to a gamepad, and had little better luck with that. It was taking me 6-7 times to aim him to go out the door, without him turning around on me. I got as far as him being bawled out before I gave up this game. I was very disappointed, because I loved the concept of this innovative game. :sad:

Interface is important. While this doesn't bother me particularly, I've read where others get nauseated and dizzy from the rapid panning of the 3D gaming cameras. Adv games have different needs than the FPS, fighting games, or sports games. I'm not averse to change, but developers need to make sure that the gaming engine used for adv games is appropriate for the fine motions of
pick-up-and-use-this-on-that kind of usage in adv games, excluding pixel-hunting, of course. When the world is spinning rapidly away from you, it is hard to find hot spots. If adv gaming is entrenched in P&C, it is partly because of this, not so much because of users refusal to try new options. Perhaps before real change can occur in the community, the developers need to show us that it can work comfortably in this environment.

BTW, I hope I didn't get too carried away on my first post, but I found it a very stimulating topic to expostulate upon. :D

[nordic_guy]

Nordic_Guy:

Look at the sales figures for The Adventure Company for the last year. (And remember that it was a division of Dreamcatcher that was so successful that it was split off into its own subsidiary.) Then tell me that "adventure gamers" aren't a large enough group to determine for themselves what they do or don't want in a product.

What you don't like is that when it comes to "adventure gamers," your opinion suddenly is the minority one. As is Dylan's. How about if instead of going around telling the majority of adventure gamers what the problems with their games are and how things should be...you ask a few of the core demographic for their opinion?
I have no problem being with the minority, and this is not about what I like or don't like. That's not my point, and I never mentioned my own preferences. I have no problem with a good 2d pont and click, I just think adventuregames has to move forward sometimes, too.
Change isn't always bad.
Then get back to me. ;)
Um-hum. You obviously didn't get my point. But that could just be me not being very good to express myself. :confused:
I think there's a group not being catered to here. I disagree that people around my age aren't interested in adventure games. They just haven't seen any good ones for the past six years. They're more interested in other genres that do still manage to surprise and amaze. A new creative impulse is needed to get the hardcore back to adventure gaming. I hope BS3, TLJ2, etc. will help kick that off.
There you have it. That's what I've been trying to say.

[Lucky's Rainbow]

I have to admit that when I originally read BJ's editorial, I loudly applauded him. I still stand by that response. Of course, I know that his opinion stated here is due in part to having lived with me for 2 years.

I am almost perfectly the demographic he described: white, female, near 40 and an avid adventure gamer. I did play games in the arcades, but while all my male counterparts were playing Galaxian and Space Invaders, I was playing Q-bert and Frogger. While my games did involve some quickness they also required some planning ahead and thought about moves. I also played console games but again I favored Tetris to Duckhunt.

I am also an avid reader (something I think BJ left out of his equation). What I look for in a good adventure game is the same thing I look for in my books, a good story told well with interesting characters. I like to get the same feelings when I play a game as when I read a good book. Some games are better at fulfilling this need, TLJ and Blackstone Chronicles come to mind.

While I do appreciate a beautifully rendered game, I don't care how pretty it is if the game is "unplayable" for me due to boring storyline, impossibly stupid puzzles, or unlearnable controls. This is a carry over from my years of watching movies, I don't care how beautifully a movie is shot, if the story sucks, I don't watch.

I have played my share of console games, most of which I found incredibly boring and repetitive. When I found PC Adventure games, I felt like I had found something perfect for me. I have spent most of the last 2 years aquiring all the wonderful old PNC adventure games and playing them. Personally, I can not imagine that even one of them could have been made better by adding "action" elements or a "realistic" 3D environment.

If "The Future" of gaming is some merged hybrid form of all games, I for one will sadly give up PC gaming of new titles. One recent disappointment for me was "Shadow of Destiny". I read the box in the store and eagerly bought it without doing the research into the title. I loaded it onto my PC and sat down to enjoy what looked to be a wonderful story. Then I hit my first obstacle, I was completely unable to control my character even after reading the manual pages which explained how to do so. When I looked closer at the manual to see where I went wrong I discovered that to get complete control I would either have to grow a third arm to have enough fingers to control my character with the keyboard/mouse or go out and buy a game pad just for this game. Needless to say, I did not end up playing the game, and quickly removed it from my PC and sold it. (Don't think I am some idiot either, I was able to gain complete control of both Manny Calavera and Guybrush Threepwood, ver. 4.0). I personally have nothing against platform gamers, but do not force me to play my PC games that way.

I personally have been very disappointed in what I see from the previews of BS3. I remember looking the early screen shots and being heartbroken that the beautiful 2D Don Bluthesque animation had been replaced by some weird 3D polygonal pseudo George in "sneak" mode. My first thought when seeing it was "Uh-oh, it has actiony stuff, I may not want to play it."

Being fairly new to adventure game forums online, I can't boldly stand up and shout about the relative number of males to females. But, I do tend to see the same ratio as BJ on the other forums (Gameboomers and The Adventure Company especially). Also from my experience with 2 online adventure games (The Cypher and SPITE), I saw similar ratios. I will not be led to believe that mature women are not a significant portion of the game buying public. Who ever said that Ad Execs saw the world correctly?

[James]

I still maintain that the great advantage of the adventure genre is its applicability. A child can pick up one of the monkey island games and enjoy it, cartoonish graphics and all. It may indeed educate them, as I put down my logical/deductive skills to a childhood full of mind bending puzzles. Yet at the same time, i can still play them now, and the older gamer can appreciate and enjoy them as well, being more slow paced, less violent, and more mature, negative conotations of that word unfortuanately included. The point and click adventure is based on an interface. Cross platform development means it is easier for developers to work with a keyboard/gamepad interface, where as dedicated PC titles still have the opportunity to develop point and click games.

[Wajus]

But where folks like Mr. Cecil and other adherents of the “point-and-click is dead” philosophy have missed the boat is by equating game players with adventure game players. Take a look around almost any adventure game forum and you will soon be struck by one glaringly obvious fact. The women outnumber the men three or four to one! The typical adventure gamer is not a male under 30, but rather a woman over 40! While she likes a game to look “pretty,” she is more concerned with the story or the puzzles than whether the game is presented in 2D, 3D, or Tesseract-O-Vision. The more complicated the interface, the less likely she will be to finish the game or recommend it to others. Because she hasn’t honed her skills on arcade and platform twitch games, she does not want to have to press several buttons at once, and would prefer to not have to use her keyboard at all.

Your point would only be valid if:
1) You could prove that BS3 controls are going to be action/platformer and not adventure oriented and intuitive.
2) You could prove that in BS3 what will count more is graphics not the story.
3) You could prove that while number of adventure-playing-womens rapidly grows the number of mainstream-males falls.
4) You can prove that adventure games are and will be for womans only.

I think that BS3 will redefine some of your opinions.

[Fairygdmther]

Wajus, you said for BJ to "prove" :

4) You can prove that adventure games are and will be for womans only

BJ didn't say that - he said that the "typical" users are women, meaning the majority, not the totality of the players. While the developer should keep that in mind, I don't believe he means that all adv games from now on should be made for women only. I think he meant that if the majority of the users are women, then listen to what they have to say.

I am an "atypical" console user, playing Halo on Xbox, Ico and Sly Cooper on the PS2 and older games on the Dreamcast. I don't expect the console developers to listen to my suggestions. But for adv games on PC, I am in the majority, and I expect to have a voice heard.

[BacardiJim]

1. Nowhere in the original editorial (or in my replies) did I say anything about BS3. You might want to get new reading glasses, Wajus.

2. The deomgraphics themselves prove that older women make up a single largest sector of regular adventure game buyers. Take a tour of the other adventure game forums and you'll see this to be the case. I know it sucks to discover that you are in the minority... but you are. And US birth statistics over the last 40 years show that this segment of the population will continue to grow rapidly for the next 20 years. (I can't speak for the birth rates in Poland.) The 40-70 age group is the fastest growing segment of the American population. And the women outnumber the men.

3. I didn't say that adventure games are designed only for women. I said that older women make up the largest single chunk of the adventure game consumer base. More adventure games probably should be designed strictly for women. But instead, we have male technophiles making decisions and bold pronouncements about the future of adventure gaming without bothering to ask the opinion of these women. It's like if I went around making public statements about how China needs to alter its agricultural land allocation. I'm not Chinese... I haven't asked any Chinese what they think... so my statements should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Marek]

I'm just guessing here based on gut feeling, but I think JA is made up of mostly 40- and pretty evenly divided among gender lines. FFC is largely 40+ but pretty evenly divided among gender lines. AG comprises the target audience for all games, the fabled 18-24 male.

I think your gut feeling is correct. By the way, the last time we did some research 1/3 of our site visitors were female. I also have a demographic breakdown somewhere. I'll see if I can dig it up, just for the sake of information.

[Wajus]

But in your editorial Jim you said how you feel about Charles Cecil statemant that "P&C adventures are dead"? This statement was clerly built around upcoming Broken Sword 3.

Tell me why have you used this statement? Just to use it as a fancy quotations with no or little relevance to it?

Later in the post you're attacking CC's quotations by calling it false. But it is only false if judged by your premise which you have built around the same statement. It is a vicious circle.

In both mainstream and (more importantly) production perspective "p&c" is dead. It's dead for Revolution Software as they don't focus on any group of gamers in particular - be it women, man, boys or girls. Heck they even don't aim at gaming community with BS3. They simply want to make their vision of perfect adventure game come true and if they feel that "p&c" restricted them it's ok. And there will be no reason that BS3 would not satisfy anybody's needs. I think that it really doesn't take p&c or action-packed games to satisfy the needs of the broader audience.

Or maybe you are here to tell us that women can only play games if they are "p&c"? You think they won't even bother to try something new?

[remixor]

BJ, are you actually complaining about any specific trend you've seen in the industry, or what? I mean, you take one quote by some guy who's developing a game you claim not even to be talking about, and somehow apply that to the whole industry. If the biggest adventure publisher around is still publishing all of these games targeted at this fabled target audience, what's the problem? I mean, what adventure developers are you even TALKING about here? There aren't that many left, you know, and it seems like the most prominent ones are doing what you want, with the exception of Revolution. Some of the evidence you're giving seems rather contradictory (and you still haven't cited any sources). Also, it looks like you're saying that the target demographic wants a better story and characters, not better graphics and direct control, etc., but it looks to me like the games coming out now that are P+C seem to also be the ones with no depth (ie, most of The Adventure Company's games). But hey, as you say, females above 40 buy those games, right? So they must enjoy them. Now, what's the problem?

[BacardiJim]

Re-read the original editorial. I am not bashing any publishers. Or developers (other than Mr. Cecil himself for his loaded statement). I'm not complaining about any particular trends in the industry. I'm bashing (if you want to call it that) the fans of adventure games who jumped on the comment as an excuse to promote their own view of the "future of adventure games" as the one and only correct one without bothering to take into account the desires or opinions of the single largest sector of the adventure game consumer base. I'm "bashing" people like Dimi and Dylan_Dog who want to tell us all what adventure games are, should be, and will be when they aren't even a part of the adventure game core demographic.

As to my use of Cecil's quote to open the editorial, I think I explained that in the very first sentence of the editorial. I'm not talking about BS3. I was talking about the polarizing effect of the comment itself.

Make sense?

[ragnar]

I personally have been very disappointed in what I see from the previews of BS3. I remember looking the early screen shots and being heartbroken that the beautiful 2D Don Bluthesque animation had been replaced by some weird 3D polygonal pseudo George in "sneak" mode. My first thought when seeing it was "Uh-oh, it has actiony stuff, I may not want to play it."


Just a question, were you unable to complete BS1 & 2? Did you dislike BS1 & 2? They contain the very same type of action elements that BS3 will contain, so you seem to apply some attributes to BS3 just because it is in real time 3D instead of 2D. It doesn't make sense imo.

2. The deomgraphics themselves prove that older women make up a single largest sector of regular adventure game buyers. Take a tour of the other adventure game forums and you'll see this to be the case. I know it sucks to discover that you are in the minority... but you are. And US birth statistics over the last 40 years show that this segment of the population will continue to grow rapidly for the next 20 years. (I can't speak for the birth rates in Poland.) The 40-70 age group is the fastest growing segment of the American population. And the women outnumber the men.

I still want to see some statistics that actually prove you right that 40+ women is the major group of AG players. Since you never replied on my last post, I guess that you don't have that proof and just spreading something tha you think is a fact but has no bearing in reality.

3. I didn't say that adventure games are designed only for women. I said that older women make up the largest single chunk of the adventure game consumer base. More adventure games probably should be designed strictly for women. But instead, we have male technophiles making decisions and bold pronouncements about the future of adventure gaming without bothering to ask the opinion of these women. It's like if I went around making public statements about how China needs to alter its agricultural land allocation. I'm not Chinese... I haven't asked any Chinese what they think... so my statements should be taken with a grain of salt.
Have you forgotten that there are female AG game designers such as Jane Jensen. She always used the latest technology in her Gabriel Knight series. And we indeed take your statements with a large grain of salt. ;)

[twifkak]

PnCs aren't dead, but they're not the Valhalla of adventures. They're part of a bright and colorful rainbow that rains down boxes of sunshine on naked leprochauns who dance the macarena below its ray of silent death, and people who say they prefer PnCs (even if they're doing it in the most diplomatic way they know how) may (may) prefer PnCs only out of the comfort of familiarity. These people (myself included) should try to play, every once in a while, games that may upset or shock them, to see what lies beyond the initial reaction.

[BacardiJim]

"I'll have whatever he's having." ;)

[twifkak]

"I'll have whatever he's having." ;)
Edited for her pleasure. to actually say something constructive.

[remixor]

Jim: I think your intepretation of Cecil's statement has been more polarizing than the statement itself.

And as far as bashing the gamers go, aren't we (the gamers) ALSO the people who buy these games? And aren't YOU trying to say that adventure gaming should be a certain way (as you say, for at least a few more years anyway)?

And also bear in mind that in their original heydey, adventure games were just about the most technologically innovating games out there. That time is long (long) past, but what's wrong with at least trying to SORT of keep up with technology?

And I still think your point about control difficulty for the "target demographic" is a bit silly. You mentioned Last Express. Well, I just finished that game. I absolutely loved it, but I must point out a little sequence requiring you to click the most precisely over an insane erratic beetle. Are you going to say this easier for your target group that using a keyboard? I sure had a hell of a time with it. Though you do not see fit to grant me a place in the adventure gamer demographic, I play exclusively adventure games, and I guarantee you that I have been playing them longer than most 40+ women. And having said that, I can vouch for how many point-and-click adventure contain things like this sequence I just described, or the good old-fashioned pixel hunt. These are easy, from a control perspective? They are essentially only possible with point and click.


Also, emma, re: you being disappointed about BS3's move to 3d: Don't you think that's more a disappointment with the franchise than with the genre? I, too, was disappointed in that at first, and to this DAY I would still rather see BS3 in high-resolution 2d, but I have also grown to think that Revolution has done beautiful things with the system they chose and I'm confident in them. In any case, you don't seem too shook up by Uru, right? ;)


Also, to whoever mentioned SoD: this was a console game, and it was widely reported in reviews and so forth that the PC port was inferior. Everything I read said not to play the PC version if you can help it, due to rather debilitating problems. This game is not at all indicative of PC adventure control systems. And as you said, you had no problems with Grim or MI4.

Also, to the same person: it sound like you're letting nostalgia take over your actual memories. Are they really ADDING action events to BS3? It blows my mind how much controversy that has generated, considering how many times Rev has stated that they're just doing what they did in the first two games!


And finally, I'm not arguing whether or not females are a big part of the adventure market. I WOULD like to see some actual quantifiable proof, but honestly it doesn't surprise me at all. However, that really doesn't change any of the points I've made.

[Wajus]

As to my use of Cecil's quote to open the editorial, I think I explained that in the very first sentence of the editorial. I'm not talking about BS3. I was talking about the polarizing effect of the comment itself.
Make sense?

Sure it does. Especially when later you come back to this statement trying to prove it wrong. Maybe you should stop refering us to your editorial and finally start answering our questions instead :rolleyes:

And believe me there's no democracy in game making industry, just like there's no in art.

[remixor]

PnCs aren't dead, but they're not the Valhalla of adventures. They're part of a bright and colorful rainbow that rains down boxes of sunlight on naked leprochauns who dance the macarena below its ray of silent death, and people who say they prefer PnCs (even if they're doing it in the most diplomatic way they know how) may (may) prefer PnCs only out of the comfort of familiarity. These people (myself included) should try to play, every once in a while, games that may upset or shock them, to see what lies beyond the initial reaction.


I completely agree. I couldn't agree more. Agree agree agree.

I can most definitely put myself in that category as well. I have only recently reached the point where I can sort of admit to myself that my love for point-and-clicks is due to familiarity more than anything else. I can realize that the p+c's I love aren't great because they use a PnC system, they are great because they ARE great, and the PnC system was just as much a matter of conventions of the day than anything else. BJ, who are you to decide how many more years the PnC had left? I mean, you're accusing the other gamers of trying to dictate how the genre should be? Where on earth do you get "at least 2 years" or "at least 5 years" or whatever it was? If this came a few years later, would you really have said "Well, yeah, I guess we're just about done now."?

[BacardiJim]

Let me post some of the responses to this thread that have appeared over at GameBoomers. Note that all of these comments are from women.

You have waaaaaaaaaay too much insight! ;-) Thanks for letting our 'secret' out to the masses!
I really think that you hit the nail on the head. I know that is true just comparing me and the games I like, being in that well over 40, semi-retired area, to the games that my grandsons like. Like shoot, kill, stalk, slash. They tell me my games are scary, but boring. All of them have been raised on Play Station 1, 2, Gameboy Advance, they live with a game in their hands, way too much. In my house when the three seven year olds talk, it is all about levels. They ask me, Gramma, what level are you on, I tell them, Gramma's game does not have levels.
BacardiJim...that is a super article! As a card-carrying member of the "Geritol" set, I related to every word.
Well said. All they need to do is come here to get a sense of what we like. I find that the other adventure forums have a skew towards more 'actiony' 3rd person adventures. Preaching to them about our preferences will fall on deaf ears. I particularly like the one comment about how keyboard usage is universal, so how hard can it be to use arrow keys. Missed the boat completely.

[twifkak]

I completely agree. I couldn't agree more. Agree agree agree.
Wow. Even the naked leprochauns and the ray of silent death?

[Henke]

I must say that I fully agree with Mareks first post. He is so right it's almost scary.

I have a really hard time imagining that MOST people that play adventure games are female 40+. They are the cathegory of people that play least games regardless of what genre it is. Although I do think that the relatively few of those people who actually play games does in 9 cases of 10 play adventure games. But I don't think they are the group of people who play it the most.

I haven't really been able to follow the whole 2D vs 3D and mouse vs keyboard discussion here. I personally think it's obvious that 3D graphics controlled with the keyboard are the best in most cases. But it solely depends on the rest of the games design. So ultimately it varies between games which alternative that is the best.

[twifkak]

Heh. I didn't read the whole thing, and didn't know there *was* a 3-D/2-D mouse/keyboard discussion. :)

Does anybody else remember that extensive gameboomers survey that asked all those billions of questions? Anybody remember the results?

[remixor]

"Well said. All they need to do is come here to get a sense of what we like. I find that the other adventure forums have a skew towards more 'actiony' 3rd person adventures. "

Yeah, that's us alright. :rolleyes: Geez. I don't even know how to respond.


"I really think that you hit the nail on the head. I know that is true just comparing me and the games I like, being in that well over 40, semi-retired area, to the games that my grandsons like. Like shoot, kill, stalk, slash. They tell me my games are scary, but boring. All of them have been raised on Play Station 1, 2, Gameboy Advance, they live with a game in their hands, way too much. In my house when the three seven year olds talk, it is all about levels. They ask me, Gramma, what level are you on, I tell them, Gramma's game does not have levels."

ARHGHAGHGAH! ARHGHGH! AAAAAAAAAARGGHG! You know what I would tell Gramma? I'd tell her she's obviously not OLD enough to remember when just about ALL games had levels. Arcade games are a hell of a lot older than point-and-click, of all things!



And as far as getting your quotes from GameBoomers? Good job. The whole POINT of that site is to cater to that age group. At least we're an adventure site.

[ragnar]

Let me post some of the responses to this thread that have appeared over at GameBoomers. Note that all of these comments are from women.

When you are on it you can ask those if they have an example of those "actiony" adventure games they talked about. Or if they have tried to play them at all.

<sarcasm>It seems to me they want to scream "I am over 40 so I must have 5 hours of time to complete every thing I do"</sarcasm>. Now what I really want to say with this is that perhaps if they tried to open up their gaming experience instead of just start to shout "Noooooo, action!" every time there is something even remotely time-related.

[ragnar]

ARHGHAGHGAH! ARHGHGH! AAAAAAAAAARGGHG! You know what I would tell Gramma? I'd tell her she's obviously not OLD enough to remember when just about ALL games had levels. Arcade games are a hell of a lot older than point-and-click, of all things!

Precisely my thought. I've been playing games since I was 2 years old. Games were a lot actiony at those times.

[remixor]

When you are on it you can ask those if they have an example of those "actiony" adventure games they talked about. Or if they have tried to play them at all.

<sarcasm>It seems to me they want to scream "I am over 40 so I must have 5 hours of time to complete every thing I do"</sarcasm>. Now what I really want to say with this is that perhaps if they tried to open up their gaming experience instead of just start to shout "Noooooo, action!" every time there is something even remotely time-related.

Yeah, that's how I feel. It seems like it's just easier for them to protest change than to even give anything else a chance.




Well, you know what? I'm taking back "my" genre! You all best watch out! I bet that target demographic hasn't been playing adventure games for 13 years! Well, I have! Therefore, I declare that people who want to make adventure games any differently than how I want them simply have "deaf ears", and "are missing the boat completely"!

[BacardiJim]

I was just looking those results up, twifkak. Of 1027 respondents, 70% were over 30 and 48% were over 40. The single largest grouping was age 40-49 with 27%

Note that this poll is two years old. But I can assure you that since the respondents were 65% American and American post-war birth rates are moving a huge number of people into the 40+ range, the percentage of "older" adventure gamers has only increased.

Oh.... and 59% of respondents were female.

[Christina]

I'm bashing (if you want to call it that) the fans of adventure games who jumped on the comment as an excuse to promote their own view of the "future of adventure games" as the one and only correct one

But aren't you doing the same thing?

Also, once again Charles' quote is being misinterpreted. He wasn't reffering to PNC adventures not being commercially viable. He was reffering to them being creatively dead. There is no new place to take them. No moving forward; only stagnation. And I think he is completely right.

I enjoy a good PNC as much as the next person but also realize how important it is for developers to try new things with the genre; now more than ever.

Remember when Adventures used to be the leaders when it came to innovative gaming techniques? When the primary audience was NOT just +40 plus females but people of both genders and all ages?

You said that women won't sit there and stand for it when their chosen control scheme gets messed with. Well I'm not going to sit there and stand for the entire genre just being complacent in it's old tried and true (and continually less and less creative and more and more boring) status quo.

But the truth is, 90% of the adventure market IS catering to those 40+ females and I suspect will continue to do so - at least for a while. After all, we are talking about the future of gaming here, and who is more likely to be the ones playing/making games in the future? The 20 year olds or the 40+ crowd.(Not that I think 40 is old^_^) It's time to finally start catching up with the rest of the industry and regain the respect(and audience) that the genre used to have.

[remixor]

Just about 100% of what Christina said is exactly what I was trying to get across, but was probably lost in my needlessly long posts. For anyone who doesn't want to read all the crap I wrote, read above for exactly what I was saying.

[BacardiJim]

Errrrrrr.... Christina: What happened to the rest of the sentence you quoted? Wasn't my comment about people who want to declare what the future of adventure games should be "without bothering to take into account the desires or opinions of the single largest sector of the adventure game consumer base?" I could almost swear that that was the important part of the comment. I guess somehow that half of the sentence got dropped out of your buffer. ;)

That having been said, trust me when I say that I would love to see a reinvigoration of the adventure gaming industry. I merely want to warn people that some of this change is going to cost the genre some of its most devoted adherents. If overall adventure game sales fall because innovations alienate older gamers and there is no more p-n-c for them to turn to, then the bottom line of the lost dollars may hurt the genre more than whatever it gains. I agree that change and innovation are needed. But I think (and this is the fourth or fifth time I've said this) that it is way too early to put the nails in the point-and-click coffin. Ideally, there will be room for both traditional and innovative games without people running around proclaiming like Moses from the mount that this is "dead" or that is "too trendy."

[bewaretheturnips]

You know it's kind of interesting to think, none of the women over 40 I know play games... except for one lady, but she plays Sims. All the girls I know under 30, typically are into Mario Kart or Grand Theft Auto, but even then on sporadic levels, nothing hardcore. Of course, I did get my little sister hooked on adventure games, but wait she's not over 40..

hmmmm... well, it's probably nothing.

[remixor]

except for one lady, but she plays Sims.

I think you would find that the majority of women over 40 who are playing computer games are playing stuff like The Sims rather than adventures.

[ragnar]

Errrrrrr.... Christina: What happened to the rest of the sentence you quoted? wasn't the point about people who want to declare what the future of adventure games should be "without bothering to take into account the desires or opinions of the single largest sector of the adventure game consumer base?" I could almost swear that that was the important part of the comment. I guess somehow that half of the sentence got dropped out of your buffer. ;)

And I think you missed to read the whole of Christinas post. Especially notice this thing:


But the truth is, 90% of the adventure market IS catering to those 40+ females and I suspect will continue to do so - at least for a while. After all, we are talking about the future of gaming here, and who is more likely to be the ones playing/making games in the future? The 20 year olds or the 40+ crowd.(Not that I think 40 is old^_^) It's time to finally start catching up with the rest of the industry and regain the respect(and audience) that the genre used to have.

[Christina]

Errrrrrr.... Christina: What happened to the rest of the sentence you quoted? Wasn't my comment about people who want to declare what the future of adventure games should be "without bothering to take into account the desires or opinions of the single largest sector of the adventure game consumer base?" I could almost swear that that was the important part of the comment. I guess somehow that half of the sentence got dropped out of your buffer. ;)


I was only trying to make the post length shorter. Whether that comment was left in or not, did not effect my point that you were using that statement to furthur your argument about adventure games, just the same as the people you are accusing of using it to furthur theirs.

"Just about 100% of what Christina said is exactly what I was trying to get across, but was probably lost in my needlessly long posts. For anyone who doesn't want to read all the crap I wrote, read above for exactly what I was saying."

lol. Thanks Remixor. :)

[Marek]

I'm not sure if we should think of this as "us" vs. "them". That's a wrong sort of discussion. I think we should think of this as "us" and "them" (who those two parties are depends on the agegroup you belong to, of course).

There's tons of games out there that the 40+ group loves to play. Great!

On the other hand, a chunk of the 20-30 group finds less satisfaction in current adventure games and is asking for a few changes. Let them have those changes, I say.

There's more than enough games coming out to be able to make a selection based on your personal preferences, whatever those may be.

There's a last point I need to make, which hasn't been raised here yet. If the 20-30 group is indeed a minority (and this is a large "if", cause we don't have any figures to work with), it has to be a minority because most adventure gamers from the late 80ies / early 90ies have given up on adventure games. Don't underestimate the amount of RPG, strategy and action gamers out there who grew up with Leisure Suit Larry, Monkey Island, etc. They'd be back to playing adventure games this instant if they knew they'd be playing something on par with what they can get in other genres.

[Fairygdmther]

I think you would find that the majority of women over 40 who are playing computer games are playing stuff like The Sims rather than adventures.

You may be right with that, but what are they going to play when they get sick of the minutia of The Sims? This is the generation who reads Danielle Steele, and Mary Higgins Clarke, and are used to good stories. They weren't brought up with consoles, but are used to PC's or MAC's. Don't you think they will gravitate to the nonviolent type of games like adventure? Don't just think of current users, but future ones as well. I feel, like BJ, that ringing the death knell for adv games, particularly P&C is premature, especially in this rapidly changing gaming environment. Sure maybe some will go to the online RPG's and MMORPG's, but many will come to adv games, if we let them know the games are there. Developers, advertisers, and retailers need to recognize this. I also agree with Lucky's Rainbow about the need for good stories as the driving force behind adv games.

[bewaretheturnips]

And furthermore! : )

I really couldn't care less what interface they use as long as it isn't obnoxious. What bothers me is when a story or bit a of dialogue cheeses me out such as in Siberia or Monkey Island 4 (which was a bit of a disappointment, but that's a red herring..)

I guess I shouldn't care about these things since, I'm not a (ahem) 40 year old woman, but what can I say? I am what I am.. (sigh)

[remixor]

You may be right with that, but what are they going to play when they get sick of the minutia of The Sims? This is the generation who reads Danielle Steele, and Mary Higgins Clarke, and are used to good stories. They weren't brought up with consoles, but are used to PC's or MAC's. Don't you think they will gravitate to the nonviolent type of games like adventure? Don't just think of current users, but future ones as well. I feel, like BJ, that ringing the death knell for adv games, particularly P&C is premature, especially in this rapidly changing gaming environment. Sure maybe some will go to the online RPG's and MMORPG's, but many will come to adv games, if we let them know the games are there. Developers, advertisers, and retailers need to recognize this. I also agree with Lucky's Rainbow about the need for good stories as the driving force behind adv games.


Excellent. I'd love more people to come to the adventure genre and get great stories. Are you somehow implying I'm against great stories or something? I never said anything of the sort. What on earth does P+C being dead have anything to do with quality of stories or characters?

[Wajus]

Errrrrrr.... Christina: What happened to the rest of the sentence you quoted? Wasn't my comment about people who want to declare what the future of adventure games should be "without bothering to take into account the desires or opinions of the single largest sector of the adventure game consumer base?" I could almost swear that that was the important part of the comment. I guess somehow that half of the sentence got dropped out of your buffer. ;)

You see, I don't understand something. So far most of adventure games that are/were out there on stores shelves seem to be what you would describe as women-friendly game. Let's face it, that's the main reason that so many women are drawn to our beloved genre.
I understand that it's frustrating that mainstream still doesn't catter so much for women asd they propably should - with all this macho-violence and stuff like this.

But why are you so wry about adventure developers who are simply trying something new when there are still other options? And why are you implying that those new adventure games won't be suitable for women? Surely they won't be made for 40+ women's only but it doesn't yet mean that it won't be made for them at all.

[m0ds]

Commercially: Point and click adventures still sell.
Development: Hundreds are still being created.

Conclusion: Point and clicks are alive.

m0ds

[Jackal]

I don't get it... I really don't understand what this crusade is about, unless it's a case of championing a cause for personal notoriety. Why else choose an aging quote that's already been dissected thoroughly, repeat it incorrectly, completely ignore its circumstantial context, and use it as a platform to represent an interest group to which one doesn't belong?

I popped over here because of BJ's (self-promoting) announcement at GameBoomers that this editorial would interest "adventuresses and adventurers that aren't close-minded". What an insular foundation - that any male who disagrees is close-minded. Now that I've read it, I figured I'd respond here, since my post might get copied here without my consent anyway.

Others have clearly articulated the conveniently-neglected context of the quote, so there's no need to go down that road again. If Cecil were actively seeking to sabotage the adventure genre, I'd be right on board in arguing against him. Obviously he is doing no such thing. He was speaking from a large-scale business perspective, and no amount of sentimental backlash from a niche market can refute that. (Edit after reading Marek's and Christina's posts - if this was a creative comment, then that makes perfect sense, too, and I've yet to hear a valid response).

What I WILL add is that his statement was obviously rhetoric that was not meant to be taken literally. Would Cecil dispute that there's a marketable demographic in 40+ year old women? Undoubtedly not. I'm sure Revolution's business research is much more extensive than any of ours. Does Revolution listen to gamers? Well, one of the key developers is a contributing member of at least two popular forums that I know of, so they're not developing games in an ivory tower completely oblivious to the "wishes of the people."

No, Charles Cecil and Revolution are busy making a game that they feel will broaden the horizons of the currently-navel-gazing adventure community, and attract new "game players". Do they risk losing support from the "hardcore" adventurers if they tinker too much? Possibly, but they are well aware of the risks, and as others have said, it's their gamble. We have the right to object with our wallets, but I must be missing where demanding we're owed something familiar and throwing rocks from the sidelines if we don't get it is helpful.

I'm not really here to argue the merits of BS3, and I know that's not what the "editorial" was really about. But since this editorial IS criticizing the man behind it, I thought I'd address that first.

As to control schemes, I'm completely sympathetic to those who for some reason can't handle any kind of keyboard issues, as much as I do those with motion sickness in 3D games. I've read that Revolution is, too, and I have no doubt they are trying their best to create a scheme that's as accessible as possible. Beyond that, however, it becomes the same dilemma as with any special interest group. Can you afford to cater to them, or can you afford NOT to? There IS no middle ground on some key choices.

Incidentally, did the creator of Dark Fall post his thoughts here about his experience with BS3? Quite smitten. Ah, but what would HE know? He's probably just another developer that makes "factual-sounding but erroneous declarations about the state of adventure gaming." :rolleyes:

Moving on from Revolution, why is it that the older female demographic (whether a majority or not) is feeling ignored? Or actually, ARE they feeling ignored? I read forums, too, and though I have noticed a higher percentage of women, I HAVEN'T noticed any particular outcry of being neglected by the gaming industry on the whole. Very few I know purchase all the ones released NOW. There may be an element of lament that there aren't a few more games available (for selection), but it's rare to hear complaints about being deprived. As BJ himself noted, TAC (and GotGames, etc.) are fulfilling that niche market demand adequately. So tell me again the purpose for this diatribe? Not the TARGET of the finger pointing, but the PURPOSE for pointing one.

Oh, on a side note, I'd also add that believing DreamCatcher formed the TAC subsidiary because of its overwhelming success is naïvely swallowing pure P.R. DreamCatcher knew they'd reached a functional growth limit in the adventure market, and realized that they couldn't effectively break into the mainstream market so long as their name brand was associated with the adventures they publish. They did remarkably well growing at the rate they did, but their own research would have showed the same thing - continued growth meant branching from adventures.

[Fairygdmther]

Excellent. I'd love more people to come to the adventure genre and get great stories. Are you somehow implying I'm against great stories or something? I never said anything of the sort. What on earth does P+C being dead have anything to do with quality of stories or characters?

Nope, sorry, didn't mean to imply that at all. What it has to do with, is that for some, the story is more important than the interface, sorry for not making that clear.

Earlier you said, "...perhaps it will eventually lead other people besides this apparently entirely-50-plus-decrepit user base to become interested in our beloved genre (anyone else find it a bit odd that we don't seem to have an overwhelming presence of decrepit 50 year olds on these forums?)."

Since I'm 56, I guess I'm one of those "decrepit users", and therefore my opinion doesn't count very much against all your youthful experience. I have been playing PC games since 1986, though, so maybe I'm not so out of touch with the world of PC games. And of course the games I play on the Xbox, PS2 and Dreamcast don't count toward experience, either. After all, how could a fifty-something decrepit, mere female, have a valid opinion in the eyes of a young male? Am I PO'd? Yup, but this was just the attitude BJ was talking about earlier, so I guess I shouldn't expect anything else here. :frusty:

[BacardiJim]

Moving on from Revolution, why is it that the older female demographic (whether a majority or not) is feeling ignored? Or actually, ARE they feeling ignored? I read forums, too, and though I have noticed a higher percentage of women, I HAVEN'T noticed any particular outcry of being neglected by the gaming industry on the whole.However....

When this first was started to be argued around on the boards I several times tried to bring up the fact that there is a strong, monetary group out there that is consistantly overlooked when discussing point and click vs. keyboard. Why speak of it as dead, when it in fact is something very much alive for some of us? It's like stating your money aren't good enough for us.That sure sounds like an outcry to me.

But that's beside the point. More to the issue is that a number of (almost exclusively under-25 and male) posters here have declared both in this thread and in others that they know what is best for adventure gaming... that they have seen the future and know what it should/will be. But if you look back through this thread, you will see that virtually every post by an older woman has been either ignored, denounced, or outright ridiculed. How can the young men here claim to know what's best for adventure games if they insist on writing off or even insulting the opinions and desires of the genre's largest single demographic group?

And why is this point so difficult to grasp?

[twifkak]

Also, once again Charles' quote is being misinterpreted. He wasn't reffering to PNC adventures not being commercially viable. He was reffering to them being creatively dead.
Personally, I find it less offensive the other way around.

Books are dead! Long live stories!

edit: But yes, Stinger's right. It's simply rhetoric, and I have agreed on that from day one. I'm just speaking hypothetically.

[twifkak]

There's a last point I need to make, which hasn't been raised here yet. If the 20-30 group is indeed a minority (and this is a large "if", cause we don't have any figures to work with), it has to be a minority because most adventure gamers from the late 80ies / early 90ies have given up on adventure games. Don't underestimate the amount of RPG, strategy and action gamers out there who grew up with Leisure Suit Larry, Monkey Island, etc. They'd be back to playing adventure games this instant if they knew they'd be playing something on par with what they can get in other genres.
Fuckin' trudat.

I also want to add: I hate when we scare away Steve like this. I realize that the editorial is springboarding off the quote for effect, but the emphasis on the quote in the thread minimalizes the chance we get to hear a developer's perspective on the shebang.

[Fairygdmther]

How can the young men here claim to know what's best for adventure games if they insist on writing off or even insulting the opinions and desires of the genre's largest single demographic group?

And why is this point so difficult to grasp?

Older women are a throw-away group, BJ. Who wants to hear what "old women" have to say? Men are so accustomed to being in the positions of power, that a plea from women, even with the wonderful spokesman that you are, is unheard, and ignored; even though we are in the majority, we will not have majority rule here, ever, I guess.

[twifkak]

But if you look back through this thread, you will see that virtually every post by an older woman has been either ignored, denounced, or outright ridiculed.
*pluck*
I am a 40+ woman with enough disposable income (not even close to retired) to buy whatever game I fancy. I am also one of those who wishes adventure gaming would keep up with gaming as a whole and offer up some new and innovative ideas. I don't care about the interface, as long as it's functional. I don't care about 2D/3D/Smell-O-Vision. I will, however, pulll all of my hair out strand by strand screaming like a maniac all the while if I ever have to play another cookie-cutter maze sliding-tile pixel-hunting Dreamcatcher adventure gaming goodness point-and-clickfest rehash of every adventure gaming cliche known to mankind.
That's right! They're being ignored by you!

[bewaretheturnips]

I was just looking those results up, twifkak. Of 1027 respondents, 70% were over 30 and 48% were over 40. The single largest grouping was age 40-49 with 27%

Note that this poll is two years old. But I can assure you that since the respondents were 65% American and American post-war birth rates are moving a huge number of people into the 40+ range, the percentage of "older" adventure gamers has only increased.

Oh.... and 59% of respondents were female.

I wasn't going to say anything, but I'm afraid that I have to point out that those poll results are only accurate when describing the active members of the forum or website you are quoting from. You can see that Quick Poll #2 on this messageboard had drastically opposite results.

To actually have accurate numbers describing the gaming community at large, you would need... a completely random sample (one in which every element of the gaming population is equally likely to be picked) and that is sufficiently large to describe the gaming population.

Those numbers are meaningless when taken out of their context. This is basic statistics.

"I only deal in facts that's why I'm such a cocky bastard." - Bill Hicks.

[Tanukitsune]

Its not that 2D point and click adventures are dead, its that 2D is dying!! :sad:
You can only get 2D games if you have a GBA... or a mobile phone...
But in 5-10 years, 2D will be nearly dead, the new generation gamers only want 3D...
Puzzle games seems to be dying too...
Just go to your local game store, look at the new releases...
See anything 2D for the PC? I don't think so..

[Henke]

Older women are a throw-away group, BJ. Who wants to hear what "old women" have to say? Men are so accustomed to being in the positions of power, that a plea from women, even with the wonderful spokesman that you are, is unheard, and ignored; even though we are in the majority, we will not have majority rule here, ever, I guess.

Oh pleeease. :rolleyes:

Come on here. Ignored? I must miss the whole point to all this. Adventure games should not evolve at all in any way because older woman says so and they are mostly the ones who buy them? If that is what BacardiJim means then I don't agree at all to any of it. But I'm sure I misunderstod it (at least I hope so).

[LauraMac]

I find this whole editorial - self promoting, using Charles Cecil as slap mat - for self proclaimed statistics. What statistics? We should trust you - because you know - because you been to a lot of boards. WHAT! Hey we all been around boards, so that makes us experts too. If we say it is a statistic - then it must be so.


Next, one quote isn't an outcry - it is one quote. And what is with all the farmed quotes? If your position is so well researched and valid - then belly up and defend it. I can't respect an argument that consists of "well these people think I am right" so there.

even with the wonderful spokesman that you are, is unheard, and ignored;


Finally - I am a woman, I am not a fledgling and so what? I find your position to be over the top patronizing. I didn't ask you to speak for me. I know thousands of women who didn't ask you to speak for them. And FYI - most women in their 30's and 40's don't have less disposable income they have more than when they were in their 20's. Most people in their 40's for that matter have more disposable income than when they were 24. FYI - most women in their 30's and 40's are not semi-retired and housewives. Where did you get that from? Let's see 6 women post that out of thousands who belong to a site and that makes it the rule? If I want P & C - I can register my complaints with my wallet and my CC's. As can the rest of the women you so arrogantly pigeon hole. I can write a letter to Charles Cecil as well as the next person (who by the way is doing a fantastic job of putting out adventure games that advance the format without sacrificing the art.) When they have a vote for female spokesperson (as if we needed one) please let me know so I can lobby for an alternative.

If you think the P&C should be supported then say so and don't use "poor little women" as a cover. This one isn't a geritol swigger, isn't trembling waiting for rescue and sure isn't poor.

[ragnar]

Nope, sorry, didn't mean to imply that at all. What it has to do with, is that for some, the story is more important than the interface, sorry for not making that clear.

Earlier you said, "...perhaps it will eventually lead other people besides this apparently entirely-50-plus-decrepit user base to become interested in our beloved genre (anyone else find it a bit odd that we don't seem to have an overwhelming presence of decrepit 50 year olds on these forums?)."

Since I'm 56, I guess I'm one of those "decrepit users", and therefore my opinion doesn't count very much against all your youthful experience. I have been playing PC games since 1986, though, so maybe I'm not so out of touch with the world of PC games. And of course the games I play on the Xbox, PS2 and Dreamcast don't count toward experience, either. After all, how could a fifty-something decrepit, mere female, have a valid opinion in the eyes of a young male? Am I PO'd? Yup, but this was just the attitude BJ was talking about earlier, so I guess I shouldn't expect anything else here. :frusty:

The question is in what way you feel that your opinion doesn't count? Isn't there enough adventure games for you to enjoy? And why is it that you don't want the adventure genre to move forward, but be forever stuck in it's clichées and story repetitions.

[bewaretheturnips]

Thank God for your post LauraMac. I too thought the whole thing was a bit condescending to women.

[twifkak]

Thank God for your post LauraMac. I too thought the whole thing was a bit condescending to women.
:frown: But, I win, right? ;)

[LauraMac]

:frown: But, I win, right? ;)

Well, sure :D

[Nellie]

I also find the idea that p+c are commercially dead less controversial than the idea that they're creatively dead. Much less controversial.

Considering other elements of adventure games that still have acres of room for innovation: the storytelling, the interaction, the system by which players communicate with other characters, and the puzzles, for instance, I find it pretty irritating to hear that p&c adventures have nowhere to go creatively because of their interface.

It might have been rhetoric, but it was rhetorical nonsense.

[Erwin_Br]

I also find the idea that p+c are commercially dead less controversial than the idea that they're creatively dead. Much less controversial.

Yes, and not only that: I think he's quite right about it too, if that's what he really meant.

I mean, he could have decided to repeat Broken Sword 1 and 2, putting in the exact same elements (whether it be puzzles, graphics or controls) but I think that wouldn't prove very succesful. Not commercially. Sure, you probably could make a few die-hard BS fans happy, but that's it.

--Erwin

[Wajus]

BJ you tend to be so repetitious and biased. You are making inept victims out of women and yet you feel like some goddamn agent of their. But I'm sure you know them better than I - a probable male showinist who you dispise so much as to not even answer my questions - do, don't you? Ah forget about it. What's more important for you is that you propably found yourself a formula for a controversive article. You just make up theory to a practice and well known facts and use some controversial statement/theory/event but with little or no relevance to it, just to publicize the groundless case. OK Maybe at wider, mainstream perspective the case ain't groundless, but it's the adventure community that's already dominated by female gamers you are so shamelessly blaming. At the other hand mainstream gaming though it is a huge bussiness still (after 20 years) remains pretty self-contained pop-culture phenomenon.

But as for the new generation of adventure games I really don't see any valid reasoning why you average "caucasian women over 30" wouldn't welcome the changes that are on their way.


I mean, he could have decided to repeat Broken Sword 1 and 2, putting in the exact same elements (whether it be puzzles, graphics or controls) but I think that wouldn't prove very succesful. Not commercially. Sure, you probably could make a few die-hard BS fans happy, but that's it.

Charles Cecil himself:
"The point and click interface was perfectly suited to the indirect control of a character, in a non-hostile 2D environment, when using a mouse as control input. The ability to display games in 3D has offered exciting new opportunities, both in terms of game play and cinematics. However in a 3D environment the point and click interface is no longer the best way to control the character. The interface, which was the genre’s strength for so long, is too inflexible to adapt. We've always despised adventure gameplay that involves using every object with every background object until you find the solution. We really wanted to get away from that and feel that what we're doing now is what other people will follow and that we're overtaking the people we used to admire.

(...)

A huge advantage that the adventure has over other genres is that we convey the story through the gameplay. That's something that we feel we do well. Frankly, if you read books on film scriptwriting, the number one rule is: do not have exposition for exposition's sake - always hide it. The extraordinary thing about the videogames industry is that people don't even bother reading these books! They just say: 'Right we've reached the end of a gameplay section, now we'll have an enormous cut-scene.' It's just very poor. What we work very hard to do is offer as much exposition through the gameplay as possible, so the advances through the story are a reward rather than an obstruction.

(...)

The direct control interface has allowed us to introduce a much more diverse range of gameplay, from the traditional investigative adventure gameplay to exploration and (cerebral) action events. The game is unique in the way that it plays - it is not an action adventure, nor is it a traditional adventure. It’s a totally new mix of adventure, exploration, stealth and combat. The 3D gameworld also offers us opportunities to be much more cinematic in the way that we display the game. I am well aware that people are concerned that we have moved to an Action/adventure but I promise that everyone who has actually played the game agrees that it is 100% adventure - it just feels more dynamic and contemporary.

(...)

I was always keen to move to 3D because of the gameplay and cinematic opportunities that would be made available. However, I didn’t think that we could do this until the quality of graphics could match what could be achieved in 2D - hence the time period since the last Broken Sword game. A few developers have tried to implement point and click in 3D before, and the results haven’t been great. Gaming has moved on tremendously since the original Broken Sword - so it is important that we adapt to cater for the modern gamer.

(...)

A huge advantage that the adventure has over other genres is that we convey the story through the gameplay. So we can afford to have much shorter non-interactive scenes. And because the challenges are generally non-threatening, we can afford to move the camera cinematically. The engine-driven cut scenes dovetail together with the gameplay seamlessly to deliver a very cinematic game. I am very pleased with the result. "

[colpet]

I am one of the posters from another Forum that BJ quoted. I am female and over 40. I have only been playing adventure games for about 3 years, but in that time I've amassed a collection of over 120 games, and have played about 70 of them. Early on it became evident that the game type I prefer is the first person point and click. I dislike timed elements, action sequences, and any type of combat.
One thing I've come to realize is that there are a lot more games that are considered adventures, and my precious 1st person point and click ones are just a small subset. At other forums, I started hearing about Krandia, Silent Hill and Outcast. My natural reaction is to say that how can one call those games pure adventure? Of course, it's because we all have our own definition based on our playing preferences.The more I think about the labels - Myst like, 3D, cartoony, dialogue, puzzle, point and click - the more it makes me want to focus on just how the game makes me feel. That's the point isn't it, after all it is play. So, ultimately I feel compelled to defend my little source of pleasure, especially when I read that the "point and click is dead'. I am glad that there are many new Adventure games being developed, but unless they are mouse controlled and first person, they are of little interest to me. Whether I'm in the majority or minority of the Adventure gaming buying public doesn't really matter. As long as there are some developers willing to continue making the games I like, I will continue to buy them. I am looking forward to Dark Fall 2, Rhem 2, Crystal Key 2 and Schizm 2.

[Wajus]

I don't niche... but it's just me, I'm unstable ;)

[Ninja Dodo]

it just seems really odd to me to consider that the quality of a game is honestly determined in any large part by its control system.Well, because games are interactive the main thing they're going to be judged by is their interactivity and thus the way that interactivity is communicated to and from the player... the controls! Even the best story will not save a game that has unusable controls.

A friend of mine actually made a good point about this recently. The problem with point and click is that it's just not very interactive. Yes the stories and characters are fantastic but when you want something that is a fulfilling experience as a game you mostly have to look elsewhere. Don't get me wrong. I love the classic adventure games (King's Quest 6, Grim Fandango, Full Throttle and the old Broken Swords being some of my favourites) but at the same time I can't see them as anything other than a dead-end interactively. New point & clicks can do little else but rehash the old concepts and tried and true formulas of the classics of old and throw in a new story and cast for originality. Though I would still enjoy playing a good new point and click or creating one for that matter - really need to get going with AGS sometime - I really can't see much room for experimentation in gameplay.
3D is the way forward and for a very simple reason... The world is 3D! 2D can never represent the world as well as 3D can and with 3D you can create more interesting puzzles and problems with realistic actions and consequences. Also, games are becoming increasingly non-linear, allowing players to decide for themselves how to solve problems, instead of requiring them to read the designer's mind. Though these are mostly action games that doesn't mean these same principles can't be applied to adventure games. Look at Half Life 2 and imagine its character- and environment interaction in a non-action game. Just think what you could do with a physics system like that, and characters with such a great range of emotion, reacting to you and other elements in the game world. Play Deus Ex and ponder what it would be like to make choices like that in a cerebral adventure game. Adventure games can learn from other genres just as other genres are obviously learning from adventures (better stories, characters and puzzles).


Yet you still want to tell these foundations of the adventure game marketplace that their wants/desires aren't as important as yours... the "fringe" adventure gamer. I highly doubt that young male gamers can be a considered "a fringe". I don't believe in the notion that gamers are somehow different from adventure-gamers or that such a distinction even truly exists. There's just people who play games (also known as gamers :eek: ) and varying tastes in genres. Some people like many genres, others only a few, or even just one.

I'm "bashing" people like Dimi and Dylan_Dog who want to tell us all what adventure games are, should be, and will be when they aren't even a part of the adventure game core demographic.Nice. Again you mention this fabled majority of female adventure gamers. It would be nice if it was actually based on some substantial evidence. I personally don't know any older women who play computer games and only a few younger ones. However, that is not to say that there isn't a majority of women playing adventure games... There may well be, but no opinion is worth more than another. That's why they're called opinions. You can't discount other's thoughts and ideas just because they're not the majority.

Yup, but this was just the attitude BJ was talking about earlier, so I guess I shouldn't expect anything else here.

(...)

Older women are a throw-away group, BJ. Who wants to hear what "old women" have to say? Men are so accustomed to being in the positions of power, that a plea from women, even with the wonderful spokesman that you are, is unheard, and ignored; even though we are in the majority, we will not have majority rule here, ever, I guess.That's just cynical. I would love to hear what you have to say if it wasn't just "change is bad" and "nobody listens to us". Seriously, what direction would you want to see the genre go in? Surely you cannot be completely against change? What do you think would improve the genre?

BJ, how about this? Why don't you stop complaining and instead start a game development studio with some like-minded women to cater to just that group which you feel is so shamelessly unsupported? Or you could start small and create an independent adventure game using Adventure Game Studio...

Either way, I eagerly await your upcoming point & click adventure.

[Ninja Dodo]

Guess some other posts appeared while I was typing my rather lengthy post.

At other forums, I started hearing about Krandia, Silent Hill and Outcast. My natural reaction is to say that how can one call those games pure adventure?I think there are very few if any people that would call these pure adventures, but that's not the point. I haven't played the first two so I'll stick to Outcast here. The point is, that Outcast is a fantastic game and I don't care what genre it is. It has a great story, highly interesting characters, a fantastic world to explore and yes... also action. I like action when done well, and Outcast does it expertly. To date, Outcast has got to be the single most immersive and atmospheric game I have ever played and if ever anything was an adventure to me, in every possible sense of the word, it was that game. The Little Big Adventure series is a close second as it's also absolutely brilliant in much the same way.

[Christina]

Oh, on a side note, I'd also add that believing DreamCatcher formed the TAC subsidiary because of its overwhelming success is naïvely swallowing pure P.R. DreamCatcher knew they'd reached a functional growth limit in the adventure market, and realized that they couldn't effectively break into the mainstream market so long as their name brand was associated with the adventures they publish. They did remarkably well growing at the rate they did, but their own research would have showed the same thing - continued growth meant branching from adventures.

Thanks for adding that. I had meant to in my previous post, but with all the points I wanted to make, I forgot about it.

TAC was certainly not formed because of the success financially of the adventures. It was formed so that Dreamcatcher could start publishing action games. Plain and simple.

BTW, Singer. Welcome to the forums. You wrote a very well thought out post and I hope you decide to stay for a while.

[peb]

I'm slightly embarrassed about posting at all on this way-overlong thread. But it seems to have started off on the wrong foot and spiraled down into a ridiculous argument about whether or not women older than forty dominate the adventure market.

I visit the AG forums because there are smart people here who enjoy the adventure genre. Besides setting yourself up for a few harmless sarcastic comments (such as "decrepit users" which Fairygdmther doesn't really need to take seriously and I think, was meant to be sarcasm), I don't think you have to be embarrassed to be a part of any demographic group. I probably don't fit the average demographic here (I'm 32 and male), but I enjoy it nonetheless because I like adventures and am interested what different people have to say about it. I think everyone understands the differences between all the adventure websites and if you feel more comfortable at the forums at JA+ or Gameboomers, that's certainly your right, but I don't think you need to feel uncomfortable about being here and not being between 18 and 24 (unless you're uncomfortable about it anyway).

I don't have a problem with the original premise made (which I'm paraphrasing and summarizing since it's been so long since I've seen it in this thread) that the advancement (or destruction) of the point and click advocated by the younger adventure fans (presumably male) might turn off women older than 40 who are a large percentage of the adventure market. But I don't think most people here are advocating that all future adventures must be direct control or making other overly-grand statements. I'm sure most of us don't want the adventure genre to grow stale either, but overall, we'd just like the genre to thrive and prosper.

And BacardiJim, this comment is just ridiculous if it weren't so inflammatory:

"But that's beside the point. More to the issue is that a number of (almost exclusively under-25 and male) posters here have declared both in this thread and in others that they know what is best for adventure gaming... that they have seen the future and know what it should/will be. But if you look back through this thread, you will see that virtually every post by an older woman has been either ignored, denounced, or outright ridiculed. How can the young men here claim to know what's best for adventure games if they insist on writing off or even insulting the opinions and desires of the genre's largest single demographic group?

And why is this point so difficult to grasp?"

It's difficult to grasp because out of all the posts in this thread, I have not seen ANY poster (whether under-25 or not) declare that they know what's best for the genre. If you could provide examples to me, I'd be surprised because I've just read and reread the thread and I don't see any. There may be a comment that you think supports your argument, but I'm sure I'll disagree. I don't think that the posts made by older women were "ignored, denounced, or outright ridiculed" either (although there were a few sarcastic comments). It seems like you are imagining most of these slights to prove your original point. I read your posts over at JA+ and I enjoy it when you take the piss out of overly serious and/or slightly deranged people like Dimi. Don't become like him.

[twifkak]

BTW, Singer. Welcome to the forums. You wrote a very well thought out post and I hope you decide to stay for a while.
;)

(The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.)

[twifkak]

Jimmy Jim Jam Jum. I think you got started off on the wrong leg. (Thanks peb for attempting to calm this thread - myself included - down.) Maybe you want to qualify your original thesis to something less controversial, from which we can expand out? It's usually a much friendlier ride than wittling down a controversial one to something more fun-sized.

[BacardiJim]

I appreciate your support of my original premise, peb. As to your desire to be reminded of particular examples of grandiose comments from young men in this thread or examples of them dismissing or ridiculing the older women who spoke up, I'll be happy to refresh your memory.

The truth is the point and click 2d "graphic adventures" have been dead for a long time, and they aint coming back. - Dylan_Dog For one thing, adventure games do not require quick reflexes or particular manual dexterity, even those with direct control. Furthermore, I'd expect even a 50+ adventure gamer to be accustomed to using a keyboard, it being a fairly common input method for computers in general. I can't imagine it would be the end of the world to get them to figure out what keys like "left", "right", "up", and "down", as well as a maybe a couple others, do. - remixor (despite a quoted post from a woman who specifically said that keyboard control was an issue for her and many other older women)Yeah, those arrow keys are pretty devious. - remixor againWell, they better start designing games with extra large fonts then, because my poor eyes might not be able to read small fonts in a resolution of 1600 by 1200 pixels when I turn 50.And before you're making cracks about physical hindrance to use the keyboard, there are actually some quite formidable profiles in this cyber group of adventure gaming, that has problems using keyboards. Now, it's no reason to disallow keyboard controls, obviously, but I don't want it to become a big joke, because there are people having to deal with those issues. Just imagine if you suddenly became blind one day, and couldn't spend time playing games that you love so much? Not hard to be empathic, I should say when it concerns matters like these. - emma, speaking to the unthinking "age bashing" of the earlier posts. Not only did the offenders not apologize or comment on this, they ignored her post completely.In my opinion Charles Cecil had all the right to say that p&c is dead. It was already dead long time ago, when Myst came. Just think about to whom, when and where he was talking that "P&C is DEAD". It was ECTS, huge press conference, journalists from all around the world (from Poland too, I stiil remember the "shocking" ;) BS3 Ects coverage). The point is that he wasn't just talking to adventure community but to/and about whole gaming industry. Because frankly said p&c have been dead for mainstream for a really long time now. - WajusARHGHAGHGAH! ARHGHGH! AAAAAAAAAARGGHG! You know what I would tell Gramma? I'd tell her she's obviously not OLD enough to remember when just about ALL games had levels. - Remixor again<sarcasm>It seems to me they want to scream "I am over 40 so I must have 5 hours of time to complete every thing I do"</sarcasm>. Now what I really want to say with this is that perhaps if they tried to open up their gaming experience instead of just start to shout "Noooooo, action!" every time there is something even remotely time-related. - Ragnar (Admitting you are being sarcastic doesn't take the meanness out of the words.)It seems like it's just easier for them to protest change than to even give anything else a chance. - RemixorHad enough? ;)


The really fascinating thing (to me) is that when I submitted this editorial to Evan as a proposed article, he responded that he thought the topic had been "overplayed" and wouldn't interest anyone, so I should post it here instead. Apparently, it was capable of stirring more interest an debate than either of us anticipated.

But then, that's what an editorial is supposed to do.

Perhaps there has been some misunderstanding, given the international mix of this forum, over what an "editorial" is. It is supposed to be a statement of opinion. It may (or may not) also include some facts, statistics, or references. A good editorial should spark thought and intelligent debate. I'd like to think that this one succeeded in that department.

[Kode]

BacardiJim:

I'm just interested as to how you came across the fact that the majority of adventure game players are women over the age of 40. Survey or observation? Because the latter can be highly deceptive. For that matter, surveys can also be deceptive, but I'm just curious as to how you can be so confident of that fact, 'tis all.

And also, if it isn't much of an ask, how old are you? It's perfectly okay for you to refrain from answering; considering you left it out of your profile, I would think you might not want to say, but I was just wondering. :P

[Fairygdmther]

Peb, you said, "Besides setting yourself up for a few harmless sarcastic comments (such as "decrepit users" which Fairygdmther doesn't really need to take seriously and I think, was meant to be sarcasm)"

I assumed it WAS sarcasm, and replied with the same.

[Fairygdmther]

The question is in what way you feel that your opinion doesn't count? Isn't there enough adventure games for you to enjoy? And why is it that you don't want the adventure genre to move forward, but be forever stuck in it's clichées and story repetitions.

If you would read my entry on page 2 of this thread, I expressed that I am not averse to change.

[Dylan_Dog]

Look here Jim. I have been reading the entire thread, and so far, nothing solid has come out of this discussion. Basically you have taken Cecil's statement, written a few paragraphs and triggered post after post of stereotyping, age-group dividing and providing some kind of statistics (which look like they have been plucked out of your arse) with no solid proof. You seem to be angry at younger gamers, and you seem to want adventure games to be made a certain way (your way).

Adventure games, regardless of interface, graphics or if its 2d or 3d or point and click, are the kind of games that give you a sense of adventure, and that you are most likely to enjoy playing. This whole thing about 2d games being dead, it's true and not true, and there are different views, and different ways of looking at it. Lot of people have said that "Rock is dead" due to the fact the mainstream music now is techno, r'n'b, dance, and commercial pop. However, rock is not dead, there are still quite a few good rock bands out there, and always will be. Same applies to 2d point and clicks. However, all games are evolving, why shouldn't adventure? And each game has its target users and there are lot of games including adventure games that are targeted at all genres which is good to see.

I don't think you have anything to worry about and this whole gender/age mambo jumbo is just crap. No point in continuing these sort of arguments any more. The whole argument of 2d point adventures being dead is an endless subject and will lead nowhere. At the end of 500 posts, you will still probably be refering to your first "editorial" and the arguments will continue.

[Lucky's Rainbow]

I am enjoying reading all the discussion aroused by BJ's editorial. But, I really have a problem people not understanding that it is only an Editorial. It is his opinion based on his point of view. I see very few of you actually putting forth your own point of view, would be nice to see some thought put into your arguments. Editorialists do not need to "back up" every one of their points with hard facts.

I might actually be able to understand your attacks if only you could provide something that helps me understand where you come from. If you read my first post in this thread you will see that I tend to agree with BJ because my point of view is similar to his. If your point of view is different then MAYBE you will tend to disagree with him.

My main point is still that if PC adventure games become some weirdly controlled form of a platform game that has a 3 day learning curve, I will take my money and spend it elsewhere. I am sure that there are developers out there somewhere who agree with me or are at least listening to me and others like me. Some games will be developed with controls that take little or no time to master and jump right into a wonderful story. I will also continue to try some of the so-called hybrid games, Salammbo, after all, was not that bad of a game and had a decent story.

As for BS3, I believe very few people actually know what this game is really going to be like....the beta testers, some attendees of ECTS, and of course the developers themselves. I will of course research the game thoroughly before I spend any money on it. I will forego it if, in fact, it contains major action elements and difficult character controls. I learned my lesson well with Shadow of Destiny. I played both BS1 & BS2, which I loved for their stories, humor, and beautiful animation. I am saddened by the fact that the developers of BS3 felt the need to "advance" to 3D rendered environment which may or may not involve more action elements. I only hope that they were able to retain the humor and quality storytelling.

[Fairygdmther]

Oh pleeease. :rolleyes:

Come on here. Ignored? I must miss the whole point to all this. Adventure games should not evolve at all in any way because older woman says so and they are mostly the ones who buy them? If that is what BacardiJim means then I don't agree at all to any of it. But I'm sure I misunderstod it (at least I hope so).

Perhaps you missed the sarcasm. I had been classed as a decrepit 50+ user. I used sarcasm for rebuttal.

*
*
*
*
On another note - to Lucky's Rainbow - I agree with you 100%.

[BacardiJim]

To answer what seems to be a burning question, my analysis of the demographic makeup of adventure game players/consumers comes from a variety of sources. I already quoted the results of a survey of over 1000 people conducted at JustAdventure. In addition to that, I have my own anecdotal evidence. This is based on years of participation in many different adventure game BBS's, years of playing MUD's and MMORPG's and discussions on gaming with the other participants, several years spent on gaming IRC chat rooms, two years of writing for an online mystery/adventure game and getting to know the regular participants, and my own three years managing a retail outlet that carried computer games.

Good enough?

[Lucky's Rainbow]

Okay, that makes two of us, Fairygdmther. Soon our numbers will swell.

[Fairygdmther]

To answer what seems to be a burning question, my analysis of the demographic makeup of adventure game players/consumers comes from a variety of sources. I already quoted the results of a survey of over 1000 people conducted at JustAdventure. In addition to that, I have my own anecdotal evidence. This is based on years of participation in many different adventure game BBS's, years of playing MUD's and MMORPG's and discussions on gaming with the other participants, several years spent on gaming IRC chat rooms, two years of writing for an online mystery/adventure game and getting to know the regular participants, and my own three years managing a retail outlet that carried computer games.

Good enough?

BJ, it will never be good enough - not unless you did a double blind study of 10,000 or more PC gamers from around the world (since the USA would not suffice), and graphed it, analyzed it, and published it for the entire gaming world. Even then, you probably would get those who don't believe you. Denial is a wonderful mechanism for avoiding truth.

[Kode]

Okay, that makes two of us, Fairygdmther. Soon our numbers will swell.

Shouldn't a "muwahahahahahaha" follow that? ;)

And BacardiJim, while your experience does seem extensive, it appears you've laid too much reliance on it for your data. Although, that is completely besides the point, I guess. The fact of the matter, which does seem concludable from your experience, as you say, is that the adventure gaming community consists of many women over the age of 40. But a majority, or even a plurality - I wouldn't be so sure about that.

[Fairygdmther]

And BacardiJim, while your experience does seem extensive, it appears you've laid too much reliance on it for your data. Although, that is completely besides the point, I guess. The fact of the matter, which does seem concludable from your experience, as you say, is that the adventure gaming community consists of many women over the age of 40. But a majority, or even a plurality - I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Do you have BJ's extensive experience to refute his claim? Surely you aren't relying only on your opinion? You do have some statistics to back your doubts up don't you?

[Jackal]

Sorry, BJ. You can't have it both ways. Either call it an "editorial" that states YOUR opinion and stand by it, or empirically support your boasts that you're representing an oppressed, silent majority. I'm sure whichever option you choose would be embraced by all here. What clearly ISN'T acceptable is hiding behind unsubstantiated claims, presenting them in a condescending manner, and taking no ownership of them whatsoever. It's these factors that are creating the "interest" in this thread, not the topic. It's easy to get a reaction if you're just trying to push buttons.

LR, I've got no problem with your posts at all (nor with Emma's or Colpet's or Fairygdmther's). You do indeed claim to speak for no one but yourself, and your points are nicely articulated. Unfortunately, they have nothing to do with what BJ is expounding. He theorizes (from "experience") that older women are the majority of adventure gamers. He protests that they're being ignored, both here and in the industry, but won't answer "by whom?" He argues that nameless (other than Charles Cecil) developers and fans are dictating the future of adventure games (while he does the same) in a way that alienates said majority, though we see no practical evidence of it. None of these points are ever addressed. Why? In order for there to be intelligent debate, there needs to be dialogue.

BJ initiated this. Now he needs to follow through.

[twifkak]

BJ: You quoted a whole slew of random posts. The parent asked for quotes of people claiming to know the direction to take the genre. I only caught one: remixor saying keyboard control doesn't seem that hard. I wouldn't call that an authoritative opinion on the commercial and creative viability of keyboard control as it pertains to the adventure game space.

To answer what seems to be a burning question, my analysis of the demographic makeup of adventure game players/consumers comes from a variety of sources. I already quoted the results of a survey of over 1000 people conducted at JustAdventure. In addition to that, I have my own anecdotal evidence. This is based on years of participation in many different adventure game BBS's, years of playing MUD's and MMORPG's and discussions on gaming with the other participants, several years spent on gaming IRC chat rooms, two years of writing for an online mystery/adventure game and getting to know the regular participants, and my own three years managing a retail outlet that carried computer games.

Good enough?
Nope. I could respond with reasons that each of those don't hold up, but I think they're all pretty obvious, and it wouldn't be constructive just to pick apart your argument only to have you pick the resulting post apart. Read krkode's latest post for my opinion of what can be gleaned from your experience.

I take it, then, that you don't want to qualify your thesis, and want to remain inflammatory. *goes to grab fire extinguisher, but gets his fingers burnt trying to touch the scalding hot metal*

BTW, this is an overplayed subject. However, like religion, war, and politics, almost everybody feels that they'd lose their self-respect or something if they didn't correct what are, to them, misguided statements. Example: I work at Lockheed Martin. It's an interesting clash: kids just out of college (liberal) who are mainly SW engineers (ACLU), working for a major defense corporation. Politics don't get brought up. If they ever did, I'd sooner cash in my 401k then hear the end of it.

[Kode]

Do you have BJ's extensive experience to refute his claim? Surely you aren't relying only on your opinion? You do have some statistics to back your doubts up don't you?

Negative, mam. My apologies for speaking prematurely.

Actually, I was. And from the opinions of a lot of other people on this forum. Perhaps they were speaking prematurely too.

No, again. If I did, they wouldn't really be doubts. But it just seemed like one of those statistics that can be doubted irrespective of evidence on my side. Perhaps analogous to saying, "All gamers are male." I, personally, know no female gamers, but I sure know that all gamers are not male. I agree, my example is extreme, but it only tries to illustrate the opinion I had when viewing this statistic. After all, both BacardiJim and you know better than I, but you do not know everything.

Either way, I apologise for my impetuous reply. :sad:

[twifkak]

BTW, krkode doesn't need statistics to refute the claims he does (my argument follows, so don't hit reply yet). Years of academic research into polling techniques have revealed that

It is impossible to be aware of every external factor (what groups are the most vocal, whether JA+ is different from AGers, whether boards represent the larger population of AG consumers, etc.).
While it is possible to keep these external factors under control by picking the right crowd, or by asking control questions, none of this is possible with any decent level of error at only 1000 samples.
Wording of the poll plays an insidious role as well, and one that is often abused by 24-hour news networks.

Those aren't statistics, but they work just as well. No, I don't have references. I wouldn't begin to know where to find them, as these are areas of commonality that I've collected through the grapevine over the years, but I imagine they're out there.

[BacardiJim]

First of all, Singer, I never ever claimed to be "representing" anyone but myself. Others may have labelled me a "spokesman" for older women, but it is not a title I ever claimed for myself.

Next, I don't know what kind of newspapers or magazines you usually read, but it is quite common for editorialists to cite statistics or other factual reference material in the course of expressing their opinions. In other words, I can "have it both ways." Pick up a New York Times and peruse the Op-Ed page if you don't believe me.

And finally, what do you mean by "unsubstantiated" claims. I have at least produced numbers (and their source) to back up some of my points. I have listed my qualifications to espouse the others. NOT ONE OTHER PERSON HAS DONE THAT! If anything, my claims are the only substantiated ones.

But, as Fairygdmther pointed out, no amount of substantiation would satisfy you. I had something to say that some people didn't want to hear. Denial isn't just a river in Africa. ;)

[Kode]

But, as Fairygdmther pointed out, no amount of substantiation would satisfy you. I had something to say that some people didn't want to hear. Denial isn't just a river in Africa. ;)

There's one in Timbuktoo, too *D

[BacardiJim]

Twifkak, look again at where the italics are in Fairygdmther's post to krkode. She is being facetious because everyone was attacking me using almost the same words for not "substantiating" my claims.

Of course, when I did, in fact, make the attempt and go look up the results of the JA+ poll that you yourself suggested be referenced for some statistics, the results were either ignored or dismissed.

Or did you forget that you were the one who mentioned the JA+ poll in the first place, and now want to turn around and dismiss it?

You are correct about the methodology of that poll producing results of limited value. (I know poll design... it was my area of specialty when I was working on my M.A. in Sociology.) But those are still the only verified numbers that anyone has managed to produce, aren't they?

[Kode]

In the whale, that is this thread, I had obviously missed the results to this poll, despite looking for words like "Survey" and "JustAdventure."

During a repeat of my search, I found the results...and now I know where you get your stats from.

btw, BacardiJim sort of rhymes with Bacardi Rum *D While I am too young to drink it, I love its theme song...Sippin' on Bacardi Rum... ;)

[twifkak]

Or did you forget that you were the one who mentioned the JA+ poll in the first place, and now want to turn around and dismiss it?
I've got a decent memory. I only suggested it as a curiosity, and point of reference, but not necessarily something to be taken with less than a sufficient amount of salt.

I know poll design... it was my area of specialty when I was working on my M.A. in Sociology.
Cool. I didn't know sociology was so wide-reaching. Come to think of it, I don't even know what sociology is :P.

But those are still the only verified numbers that anyone has managed to produce, aren't they?
Yeah... so the results are "inconclusive," are they not? And, no, not any more. I've got some verified numbers in my Quick Poll series.

In any case, I re-read the beginning of this thread, and noticed that it has really escalated beyond proportion. (Also, I noticed that I had forgotten to comment on my dislike for herb popcorn.)

[emma]

Had to think twice about posting again, the discuss is very odd atm. From "how-about-this-group-of-gamers" it has gone to "I-refuse-to-think-this-group-is-viable". (At least it sounds like that to me.) Even a quick poll proving that there aren't that much women in this forum, which was stated early on in this thread, already. It was a little bit the point, why this group is overlooked or disregarded by some. Do "we" have to get pissed at the mere mention of it? Condencendingly brought up or not?

Like I said in my first post, I cringed. Never the less, there's a point in there somewhere, and I think it's kind of odd seeing people get mad. Are you guys completely sure that you're not mad thinking that somehow this group can "hold you back" or somert, so that's why it's so hard to keep this discussion venom free? If you feel this to be true in some way, remember that all I personally am saying that ONE DOESN'T RULE THE OTHER OUT! ;)

[remixor]

Oh, give me a break! Looks like I've become the official "older-woman-hater" of this thread. The fact that I seem to be perceived that way is incredible to me. I have been quoted selectively and out of context countless times in this thread. It's utterly ridiculous. I can't even believe that this has turned into an "older women" vs. "young, arrogant gamers" situation. Read my damn posts! I have tried to present myself as simply an adventure gamer, and obviously people can't seem to understand what I thought was basic sarcasm. I take issue with BacardiJim trying to lump all gaming people of a certain age and sex into a big category with some sort of collective hive mind opinion about adventure games. Obviously my thought processes are skewed or something, because it seems to me that HE'S belittling older women a lot more than I am. I'm saying that, despite the love many people (myself included, not just older women, I shouldn't have to keep saying this) have for the old tried-and-true adventure methods, the genre is simply going to have to change. I also take issue with Jim's unsubstantiated statistics and tendency to respond to MANY quotes out of context (quotes in this thread as well as the quote that started the thread). And this should be BLINDINGLY obvious, but obviously it ISN'T: I never used the word "decrepit" as an actual insult or description of anyone; it was used entirely sarcastically. In retrospect I maybe shouldn't have typed it at all, but my original usage was quoting someone ELSE, and from that point it was used in what I saw as an ironic manner.

I'd like to offer a sincere apology to any demographic whom I have offended, since I can guarantee that was never my intent. I think if people would my responses carefully, that should be clear. I most definitely take issue with specific things that have been said in this thread, but I absolutely do not have anything against women over 50, over 40, or any age at all. I also don't have any problems with what BJ claims everyone in that demographic prefers;I myself have many of those preferences! However, BJ's claim that everyone in that demographic wants the same stuff seems rather flimsy to me; for just ONE counter-example, check out Jen's (I think) post. Main point of this paragraph though: please don't think I'm insulting anyone's age group/sex. The fact that I could have done that didn't even occur to me until one of BJ's recent posts.

That being said, I still stand by all the statements I made (just keep in mind that if something I said seems utterly ludicrous or offensive, there's a good chance it's sarcasm).



EDIT: removed a naughty word :pan:

[Jackal]

Here's a mini-editorial on a lark:

"Santa Claus doesn't exist.

I'm sick to death of hearing people pronounce the demise of our beloved Saint Nick. I've been around children all my life, and can assure you that they represent the vast majority of those that enjoy Christmas. Trust me - kids believe in Santa, and failing to share that belief is to completely undermine their wishes and beliefs. Who are these meddlesome adults to have the audacity to suggest otherwise? Mark my words, if adults continue on this course, Christmas itself will come to an end and children everywhere will be heartbroken."

Ridiculous? Of course. Which pretty much sums up the effect of the original editorial. The end result of the preposterous theory above? The very same adults that adhere to the non-existence of Santa will continue to create the illusion for the youngsters, keeping their hopes and dreams alive. Gifts will continue to be there every Christmas morning, and joy abounds. Isn't arguing the opening statement much ado about nothing?

So a couple of innovators (okay, ONE) with impeccable credentials make some passionate statements in support of their vision (and defense of their professional business model). Some fans share in this genuine enthusiasm in support of their beloved genre, anxious to see what's possible when some of the most talented and creative minds in the business go to work. Somehow this is cause enough to level the charge of ignoring one's majority demographic (real or imagined), and a reason to be paranoid about the future of adventure gaming. Riiiiiight. In the meantime, the bulk of developers continue to crank out point 'n click after point 'n click, satisfying all but the most ravenous member of the "majority". You're right, Emma - there IS plenty of room for both.


Crisis? Where? "Yes, Virginia, there IS a Santa Claus."

----------------------

Now, putting aside the theater of the absurd, BJ, please don't insult everyone's intelligence by claiming you're NOT representing anyone. Huge chunks of your "editorial" are devoted to describing what "she" likes, dislikes, thinks, wants, etc. It's not a title you claimed by verbal proclamation; it's a role you assumed unbidden.

I can't say that I get the NY Times often, but had you "cited statistics or factual reference material" in the first place (not the JA material that someone ELSE "produced" later), we wouldn't be having this conversation. I can assure you that I would be criticizing ANY editorialist for making such a half-hearted attempt to substantiate his or her claims, even if they worked for God Herself. ;) And by "substantiate", I would suggest at least a MINIMUM standard of data would exceed one random sampling. Surely your Sociology courses didn't teach you that your word and hearsay were good enough.

Now, did you ask me anything else? (You'll notice how I actually answer the questions asked of me, and not selectively). Oh, as for demanding that others cite statistics in lieu of you doing so adequately, the burden of proof falls on you for having initiated the post. The accusation is yours, and it's innocent until proven guilty - that kinda thing. If we were prepared to do research into this, we wouldn't be bothered answering your post. We'd just go write our own "editorials".

And now, like twifkak, I recognize the futility of further banging my head against this wall. Quite frankly, the topic itself didn't much interest me. I just don't like bully pulpits.

On the plus side, you DID unwittingly perform a public service, after all, BJ. I got a chance to "meet" some good folks here, and it looks like a heckuva group, and I'll definitely have to drop in more often.

[emma]

Remix, I wasn't aiming my post at you. I *did* infact ask about the reasons for being angry, not accusing anybody of anything. Not accusing anybody of being an ageist as much as refusing to see the point. heh, everybody is quite possibly feeling that... ;)

I'm the first one to say that in no way am I putting everybody in the same bag. Lord knows I don't fit in the general descriptions of said demographics above.

And singer, there is still room for both and any tech to controll an adventure game. I guess I'll keep repeating that until I'm blue in the face.

[LauraMac]

----------------------

I can't say that I get the NY Times often, but had you "cited statistics or factual reference material" in the first place (not the JA material that someone ELSE "produced" later), we wouldn't be having this conversation. I can assure you that I would be criticizing ANY editorialist for making such a half-hearted attempt to substantiate his or her claims, even if they worked for God Herself. ;)


I do read the NY Times and several other publications daily. Anyone who makes up statistics would be (and have been) fired. Now I do have to admit that people have been cited, with the documented research to back it up, as liars for serving up opinions and worse, labeling them as "documented" facts. When the cited "evidence" was just conjured up in their heads. They can be found in droves in "Lies and the Lying Liars who Tell Them."

I also agree that you are stereotyping an entire group of people based solely upon their age and gender. What does age and gender have to do with it? As for having to memorize a hundred keys on a keyboard, I can't state this as a fact, but I doubt few people endorse using a highly complex control system with tons of combinations. I prefer the simplicity of a game pad to keyboard fns myself. Has nothing to do with the fact that I am a women and complicated buttons make me dizzy. Has nothing to do with my age. Has to do with it is a pain to do fast executions with 15 or 20 key choices. My sons are the same way. That's why we would rather have a hybrid or action game on a console than PC - it's the controller. It may be true that a large number of gamers are women. I find that very credible and IMO opinion - I believe their numbers are underestimated. But that is about all I would assume. Until someone does a credible and scientifically controlled survey of women gamers - I would assume nothing and I certainly wouldn't presume to set my self up as an authority. And I fit that group - so I probably have more right than you to make assumptions. What wouldn't surprise me is to learn that within that group - a wide range of variation is found.

Again - if it is your opinion that point and clicks should be encouraged, go for it. If it is your opinion that more studies need to be done about the gaming preferences of women as you hypothesize they have a greater market base than is believed. Well design that poll and go for your doctorate. Just don;t set yourself up as a self proclaimed expert on a group you don't belong to and expect people to go WOW. Just cause you say it - doesn't make it off limits to criticism or challenge.

[remixor]

Remix, I wasn't aiming my post at you.

Mine wasn't aimed at you either :) It was almost entirely aimed at BJ. Believe me, I know you to be a reasonable and rational person; no worries there.


I *did* infact ask about the reasons for being angry...


I think I've let my frustration get the best of me in this thread, so I'll try to tune it down a bit. ;)


I'm the first one to say that in no way am I putting everybody in the same bag. Lord knows I don't fit in the general descriptions of said demographics above.


Woooo!


And singer, there is still room for both and any tech to controll an adventure game. I guess I'll keep repeating that until I'm blue in the face.
[/quote]

I agree with you here of course, but it looks like Singer does too. :confused:

[emma]

I agree with you here of course, but it looks like Singer does too. :confused:

Oops! Though it to be a sarcastic post about how p&c was deader than santa! LOL! Too early in the morning I guess, sorry singer! ;)

[Jen]

Remixor, this 40+ unretired female gamer was never offended by anything you, or anyone else for that matter, said here. I never felt ignored or overlooked, either.

I have never suffered from a lack of games to play. Even if another point-and-click adventure were never made again, there are still plenty of them available. Give us some variety, for pete's sake! I have played anywhere from 5 to 50 games a year for better than fifteen years now, 90% of them point-and-click, and I still have a collection of some 200+ sitting here unplayed, 90% of them point-and-click. I'm ready to get rid of all of them, just move 'em on out of here, because I'm sick of the whole thing. Admittedly, I'm probably the anomaly here amongst the 40+ female demographic. I have played so many of the damned things that I feel like I've already seen it all and the genre simply has lost its charm for me. I welcome new directions, new locales, new interfaces, new elements, just for the change of pace! I still love gaming but I find myself turning away from adventure games and moving more toward RPGs and console games.

While I don't play games with action as a main component, I don't hate action in RPGs and console games where it is merely another element of overall gameplay; I do hate action in a point-and-click game. Action is always so poorly implemented in adventure games, besides feeling out of place in them. I don't consider Salammbo to have any "action," just timed sequences. I, enfeebled with great age, do suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome, and you know what hurts the worst? Mousing!

Boards: Each of them has a different personality. Participants initially are drawn in by mutual love of adventure gaming. The ones who stay are usually bonded by other factors as well, such as shared history, similar worldview, etc., which I think is what leads to age grouping/gender grouping as well. There is nothing wrong with that. AG has a good community. I am an "outsider" here but am never made to feel at all unwelcome. I don't share many interests with the other community members here outside of adventure gaming and so I am not a frequent poster--I just don't often have anything to say that I think the regulars would be interested in hearing. It's a rare person, I think, who visits many or all of the forums and feels comfortable everywhere. Emma's one, LenG (I don't know if he posts here but he definitely gets around), Intrepid/Homoludens, justG, Hagstrumpa... I wish I could be more like y'all, but I'm just me and I'm okay with that.

Anyway, I'm totally off point here. I guess I just wanted to point out how everyone's different, and we're talking about individual people here with individual taste that's not really very dependent on age or gender, and why I think it is that every board has a different demographic, and how I am a 40+ woman who is not feeling anything BacardiJim initially said applies to me.

Last but not least, has anyone here ever played Revolution's Gold and Glory: Road to El Dorado? That is a sweet little adventure game in 3D with direct control and! ... beautiful, handcrafted-looking graphics! Revolution's always been good with graphics, even in the days of the big pixels. I have high hopes for Broken Sword 3.

Oh yeah, one more thing (this time for real): I am the one who developed that survey that's on Just Adventure. The fundamental flaw of the whole thing is that everyone who participated was already a reader of the site. What's more, there was an incentive to participate in the form of a drawing entry to win a game.

[remixor]

Jen: it's particularly good to know I didn't inadvertently offend you, since your first post was one of those in this thread that I saw as especially sensible and useful.

The points you make in this one are good too, and I hope that BJ won't gloss over them. Your second paragraphi in particular is something I hope he reads. If technology is indeed secondary to a game's other merits (which I do believe, despite what some who would vilify me may or may not imply), there are hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of existing point-and-clicks to play. For those who just like new point and clicks regardless of content, The Adventure Company doesn't seem like they're going to slow down anytime soon.

Jen's carpal tunnel point is also quite significant I think, and was something I should have mentioned in my TLE mention.


everyone's different, and we're talking about individual people here with individual taste that's not really very dependent on age or gender

YES.

[Jackal]

Yes, I was agreeing with you completely, Emma! The misunderstanding was probably my fault, though. It's awfully LATE here, and I likely weaved once too often between nonsense, sarcasm, and serious. :D

[Intrepid Homoludens]

http://mindscraps.com/s/contrib/owen/PBgrin1.gif HA!! You see what had happened with this thread? Just as I predicted, I was the first one to respond (http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2274&postcount=2), and I knew it would turn out this way. Heh heh. [continues munching on his herb spice popcorn]

Anyway... Bacardi Jim, you could have saved yourself a lot of misunderstanding and lengthy reprisals from pissed off fellow gamers if you had done even more specific research and took notes and posted links to online sources, or at least cite your printed sources (i.e., page 17, Technology section, New York Times, Wed. 9/3/03). Claiming your dossier and using anecdotal references are not enough, anyone can do that online anonymously. How hard can it be to bookmark important links and jot down sources? I do it all the time. These sites and articles may have helped beef up your editorial:

WomenGamers.com (http://www.womengamers.com/articles/) (which I check occasionally for anything new)
Game Culture (http://www.game-culture.com/index.html)
Games, Gamers, and Gaming Culture (http://www.knowledge.hut.fi/projects/games/gamelinks.html)
Entertainment Software Association (http://www.theesa.com/) (formerly known as Interactive Digital Software Association or IDSA)
Games Makers Miss Feminine Touch (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2839019.stm), BBC News
Game Makers Aren't Chasing Women (http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,59620-2,00.html), Wired News
Women In The Gaming Industry (http://www.womengamers.com/articles/womenintheindustry.html), WomenGamers.com
Gaming Activism: How Important Is Your Gaming? (http://www.womengamers.com/articles/activism.html), WomenGamers.com
What Women Want - (and it ain't Counter Strike) (http://www.game-research.com/art_what_women_want.asp), Game Research
Video Gaming: Myths and Facts (http://www.womengamers.com/articles/myths.html), WomenGamers.com
The Gaming Gender Gap (http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/depart/rant7.html), Games Domain
Growing Up Gaming and the New Video Game Industry (http://www.journalism.ryerson.ca/online/youth/urban/mtulloch_feat.htm), Journalism.ryerson.ca
Ten Top Industry Facts (http://www.theesa.com/pressroom.html), Entertainment Software Association
Demographic Information (http://www.theesa.com/demographicinformation.html), Entertainment Software Association

[Dylan_Dog]

well done Intrepid!

[Tanukitsune]

Now that this seems to have calmed downed a little, I would like to say something...
Someone said that adventure is not dead, its just not mainstream anymore...
I wonder if it ever WAS mainstream in the first place...
Well, maybe it was mainstream in the "IF era" before games had graphics...
Graphic adventures might have been popular, maybe they sold well, but I think they still were never mainstream... Its just a gut feeling...
Am I the only one who thinks like this? :confused:

[Christina]

Now that this seems to have calmed downed a little, I would like to say something...
Someone said that adventure is not dead, its just not mainstream anymore...
I wonder if it ever WAS mainstream in the first place...
Well, maybe it was mainstream in the "IF era" before games had graphics...
Graphic adventures might have been popular, maybe they sold well, but I think they still were never mainstream... Its just a gut feeling...
Am I the only one who thinks like this? :confused:

They were definitely main stream. All through the 80s and up until the mid 90s. Adventure games were the dominant genre on the PC. PC Gamer, CGW etc. consistently had adventure games as their cover stories and awarded them Game of the Year awards. Now I can't remember the last time an AG graced the cover of a main stream gaming mag.

[Wajus]

I appreciate your support of my original premise, peb. As to your desire to be reminded of particular examples of grandiose comments from young men in this thread or examples of them dismissing or ridiculing the older women who spoke up, I'll be happy to refresh your memory.

In my opinion Charles Cecil had all the right to say that p&c is dead. It was already dead long time ago, when Myst came. Just think about to whom, when and where he was talking that "P&C is DEAD". It was ECTS, huge press conference, journalists from all around the world (from Poland too, I stiil remember the "shocking" BS3 Ects coverage). The point is that he wasn't just talking to adventure community but to/and about whole gaming industry. Because frankly said p&c have been dead for mainstream for a really long time now. - Wajus

Had enough? ;)


Wow, I'm impressed. I'm your "synthetic adversary" now. You made me!

Ok answer me this: Do you really think that enough women will buy point&click adventures to make this type of adventure games bestsellers? Millions of copies are almost at every genre's finest representatives' reach. But so far of all "noble primal genres" only adventures are in a niche - even tough they are supported by women which as you stated are a "majority". Why then we don't see point'n'click adventure games at the top-lists?

I'll repeat myself but what the heck:

Point&click is (comercially&creatively) dead for mainstream!

This doesn't mean that p&c adventures will just vanish. But if you want to sell more than million copies of your game you certainly won't reach for p&c.

This also doesn't mean that p&c's are completely dead - they are and will be realatively viable. But there's no possible way it can compete with the biggest anymore.

That's why - while Microids decided to be more moderate - companies like Funcom and Revolution want to explore new and unknown creative and commercial possibilities. We still don't really know how will they manage and what will be the effects of their work. But analogically there's no sign or proof that women won't take liking to those "new adventure games". I'm not saying they will, but I'm also wouldn't be so sure like you are that they won't - to find out we will have to wait and see.

Be patient, have faith, blah, blah, blah...

[Tanukitsune]

They were definitely main stream. All through the 80s and up until the mid 90s. Adventure games were the dominant genre on the PC. PC Gamer, CGW etc. consistently had adventure games as their cover stories and awarded them Game of the Year awards. Now I can't remember the last time an AG graced the cover of a main stream gaming mag.
True, but the reason why I feel that they are not mainstream is that even though they were more popular, there were LESS adventure game than other genres... When I got my first PC and my first game for PC (DOTD and Sam n MAx), I remember that the adventure area was always the smallest...

[remixor]

True, but the reason why I feel that they are not mainstream is that even though they were more popular, there were LESS adventure game than other genres... When I got my first PC and my first game for PC (DOTD and Sam n MAx), I remember that the adventure area was always the smallest...

You'd be surprised. There were a LOT of adventure games. Sierra alone released an absurd amount, but in those days there were simply more adventure developers. LucasArts and Sierra being the big two (and probably the best), their games have survived longer in the collective memory of adventure gamers.

[twifkak]

And now, like twifkak, I recognize the futility of further banging my head against this wall. Quite frankly, the topic itself didn't much interest me. I just don't like bully pulpits.
Hrm.. Well, apparently I admitted that at some point, so I might as well stick to the guns I don't remember de-holstering. :P

In any case, to defend my QP's: I was honestly curious. My intent can be shown by my previous poll about religion (of course, that turned into a debate, too, in a way that loopholed my stated intentions). I expected there to be a disproportionately large amount of southpaws, and was surprised by the results.

edit: Here is my original post. Despite how much I twisted and turned throughout the thread, this one still pretty much stands on its own.

[BigJim]

Hi gamers,

What an interesting tale, Bacardi, just want to know where have you found your statistics. I’m the owner of a games store, in the city where i live and i can assure you that your statistic are wrong, almost half of my adventure gamers are males and the other half are females. Even if we start to see a lot of adventure games on console, adventure gamers pc type, are not interested about console and most of them will never play an action game of their life.

Action gamers are buying adventure games pc or console (they’re a lot of kids among them) and i have a lot of action gamers that are over 40, male or female. Kids are not raised on action games, that’s prejudicial of you to say so. Today both men and women are working so the luxury/impulse/entertainment products factor as grown too.

A few years ago, we started seeing a growth of adventure games for console or pc and a mix of games with both action and adventure.

So next time you’re doing an Editorial, just be sure to have good and verifiable statistics, don’t take those numbers in your head and don’t drink to much Bacardi before doing it. You just proved the gamers over here, that you don't need to be intelligent to write Editorial. Hope that you will learn from your mistakes.

BigJim :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Tanukitsune]

You'd be surprised. There were a LOT of adventure games. Sierra alone released an absurd amount, but in those days there were simply more adventure developers. LucasArts and Sierra being the big two (and probably the best), their games have survived longer in the collective memory of adventure gamers.
You're right...
Maybe Spain didn't get all the adventure games? No, that's not it...
Maybe my concept of "mainstream" is different than others.. :sad:
That's one big problem, you'd be suprised how many words have sligthy different meanings depending who said them...
I consider something is mainstream when everybody knows it, you can't throw a stone with out hitting someone one owns one, and they are a dime a dozen...

[BostonLow]

I imagine most 14-28 year old male gamer grew up on point-and-click adventure as they populated majority of shelf-space in software stores no longer than 10 years ago.
I think the release of Doom (1993) and Dune2 (1993) coincides with the point where pnc adventure games started to lose popularity. I blame the advancement of technology that opened a door to the new genres for the death of pnc adventure games.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

I think the release of Doom (1993) and Dune2 (1993) coincides with the point where pnc adventure games started to lose popularity. I blame the advancement of technology that opened a door to the new genres for the death of pnc adventure games.

:confused: What are you talking about?! Adventure game developers had every single chance back then to use the same technology as Doom and Dune2, they had access to improved graphics and faster processors as much as developers of other genres. They had every single chance to re-evalute the design of adventure games (p-&-c, direct control, etc.), to refine the classic designs, to improve whatever needed to be, and to re-formulate their marketing strategies. Why should you or anyone be resentful just because another genre took advantage to forge ahead? Lousy argument, my dear.

[Tanukitsune]

:confused: What are you talking about?! Adventure game developers had every single chance back then to use the same technology as Doom and Dune2, they had access to improved graphics and faster processors as much as developers of other genres. They had every single chance to re-evalute the design of adventure games (p-&-c, direct control, etc.), to refine the classic designs, to improve whatever needed to be, and to re-formulate their marketing strategies. Why should you or anyone be resentful just because another genre took advantage to forge ahead? Lousy argument, my dear.
Was 93 the year Myst was born? I guess they DID use some of the technology on adventure games after all (improved graphics) :confused:
Of course someone will now say Myst is at fault of the death of adventure games... Its happened before... :shifty:

[BostonLow]

:confused: What are you talking about?! Adventure game developers had every single chance back then to use the same technology as Doom and Dune2, they had access to improved graphics and faster processors as much as developers of other genres. They had every single chance to re-evalute the design of adventure games (p-&-c, direct control, etc.), to refine the classic designs, to improve whatever needed to be, and to re-formulate their marketing strategies. Why should you or anyone be resentful just because another genre took advantage to forge ahead? Lousy argument, my dear.

you mean refine it into some other genre which is no longer a pnc adventure game. Which is what happened, I feel. If we didn't have fast gpus and cpus now that makes playing games like Deus Ex possible, we'd probably still be playing pnc adventure games or side scrollers.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

you mean refine it into some other genre which is no longer a pnc adventure game....

http://216.40.249.192/s/otn/angry/nono.gif Um, NO! Unh-uh! No! You will NOT 'steer' my comment to suit your end. You're also insinuating that the adventure devs back then were too stupid and would simply just abandon their core market (i.e. their source of success) just because a new technology came along and everyone else was using it. The reality is that:

....most 14-28 year old male gamer grew up on point-and-click adventure as they populated majority of shelf-space in software stores no longer than 10 years ago....

....and then the really cool features of the new genre of shooters and strategies came along and lured them away. But did the adventure devs in general take advantage of this and incorporated some of the features into adventures without sacrificing the essence of them respective of the genre, respectful of it as a still formidable market, thereby possibly luring that demographic back and offering them an exciting new alternative to the new genres when they want it? Nope.

Seems to me that you're merely defending complacency and blaming someone else's progress.

[Wajus]

Maybe many people abandoned adventure games for other genres but still many others were loyal to the end to their beloved genre. And when it started to fall into oblivion they simply stopped playing computer games at all.

edit: Bacardi Jim. One of these days I'm gonna meet you in a very dark alley and have you answer all my questions :kiss:

[BostonLow]

http://216.40.249.192/s/otn/angry/nono.gif Um, NO! Unh-uh! No! You will NOT 'steer' my comment to suit your end. You're also insinuating that the adventure devs back then were too stupid and would simply just abandon their core market (i.e. their source of success) just because a new technology came along and everyone else was using it. The reality is that:
....and then the really cool features of the new genre of shooters and strategies came along and lured them away. But did the adventure devs in general take advantage of this and incorporated some of the features into adventures without sacrificing the essence of them respective of the genre, respectful of it as a still formidable market, thereby possibly luring that demographic back and offering them an exciting new alternative to the new genres when they want it? Nope.

Seems to me that you're merely defending complacency and blaming someone else's progress.

Nobody knew how to "incorporate some of the features into adventures without sacrificing the essence of them respective of the genre". That's why pnc adventure games died.
If you strip away all the setting, plot, characters and music from a pnc adventure game, what do you get? You have a largely uninteresting puzzle game. I believe limited capability of hardware is what defined pnc games in the first place, and its core game play is derived from that. New technologies couldn't improve it. But it's not the puzzles that make an adventure game, is it? I see pnc adventure genre as a medium for telling a story, and not much more.
At this point I should probably mention that I don't even consider "adventure" as a genre. Adventure (not pnc adventure) is not defined by its gameplay, but rather in context. So who says you can't tell a story in a newer and better medium? To illustrate what I'm saying more clearly, imagine black & white movies being pnc adventure games and colour movies being another "new" genre. You can't improve upon black & white movie in technical sense that's superior to colour, but still be black & white, is there? Maybe it's just me, but I'm glad that new technologies made it possible for me to experience adventure in whole new other forms - frankly i was getting tired of the puzzles.

of course that's just my opinion. please feel free to enlighten me.

[MysterD]

Here we go with the whole "point and click adventure" is and isn't "Dead" issue. I have to put my 20 cents and 5 pennies in on this one.

First off, adventure gaming is not advancing like other genres have in a few departments. Adventure games seem to still be stuck, for the most part, in 2D. RPG's didn't catch on in America UNTIL FFVII, really; this was the first FF to boot gorgeous graphics; and for that matter, 3D graphics. The FF gameplay has -- well, if you've played any FF, you know how a FF plays -- it has not evolved much since FF4 (FF2 for SNES) in the gameplay department, really.

A majority of new games in RPG department, these days, are in 3D. Vampire Masquerade Bloodlines will run on a 3D Engine HL2 uses; Source Engine. Morrowind runs on 3D Engine. Arx Fatalis runs on a 3D Engine. NWN has Aurora 3D Engine. I wrote a while back an article as to why I thought the Aurora Engine would be perfect for an adventure. So, I think I should re-linkify the world:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/mysterd/13375.html?mode=reply

With 3D, adventure games could allow for rotating cameras, pitching the camera, and all kind of other great 3D-related stuff. We could have multiple viewpoints, which would be cool.

Also, most of adventure gaming is too linear. TLJ is a masterpiece, but it's always pretty much point A to B. Syberia is said to be this way by man who've played it (I ain't played Syberia yet). I've heard a lot about Runaway, in which it's for the most part also point A to B.

On the other hand, SOD is NOT linear at ALL. If anything, the next evolutionary adventure game should take notes from SOD on how to make the game not be so linear: multiple ways to solve puzzles, multiple pathways, multiple endings. Post Mortem had enough guts to be able to solve a few puzzles different ways, making it non-linear -- and there are different endings, too. So, notes should be taken from these TWO adventures.

Without modding, adventure games will not get as much replay as they possibly could. With a Toolkit -- and a good one -- anybody could build their own adventures and people could play other's adventures. Sounds good to me. Look at how Half-Life, an FPS, has survived, thanks to it being Modded to the High Heavens by the Internet Community.

Speaking of The Internet, what should an adventure game have? The chance to play it on The Net w/ players galore. That would be great! Uru has grasped this idea and will have a multiplayer component so gamers can adventure online! To add more to this good idea, if one had a Toolkit, then people on the Net could experience other people's own adventure they made! It would be wild!

Most companies making the adventure are NOT taking risks. They are sticking to the same formula that worked back when Sierra and LucasArts made great adventures. We're in 2003, not the early 90's. Let's move with the times, companies -- sick of adventures staying stagnant! So, to sum all of this up, here's what I think is holding BACK the adventure gaming genre, since msot new adventures have stuck to this style:
1.Most adventure games still are in 2D
2.Most adventure games usually are too linear
3.Most adventures have no mod community by having no toolkits
4.Most adventures have no multiplayer components

[Jake]

This thread violates my soul.

BacardiJim I think your essay is evil. It seems to boil down to finding goodness in... stunting evolution in the adventure game genre by catering to a demographic who desires nothing but the status quo.

The term "adventure games are dead" was born because adventure games fell behind - lingered in the past when other genres were moving forward and becoming clever. Falling behind means they lost power to command the direction of the games industry they once held when they were the pinnacle of innovation and technology, and lost, by extension, the mainstream gamer's wallets.

Though I'm glad The Adventure Company exists, I think it's a bit of a mixed blessing* if they exist solely to peddle 10 year old technology and design philosphies (not to mention 10 year old story ideas and settings), topping it off with some sort of elitest attitude in hopes of conning everyone into thinking that these aging ideas are somehow superior by definition. That's nothing. It's a borderline scam from some perspectives.

I'm all for the casual gamer, but the casual gamer enjoying countless Myst and Quest clones is no rationale at all for holding back the entire genre. That's foolish rationalization and laziness is what it is.




* Fortunately TAC is publishing BS3, but most people seem to regard that as a fluke.

[Jake]

Adventure game developers had every single chance back then to use the same technology as Doom and Dune2, they had access to improved graphics and faster processors as much as developers of other genres. ...... Why should you or anyone be resentful just because another genre took advantage to forge ahead? Lousy argument, my dear.

While you're making an acceptable point, that's hardly fair. Well it is totally fair but I'm confusing myself in my own brain.

The truth is, I don't think there's anything adventure developers could have done to stay "ahead of the curve" like they once were when 2D reigned supreme in the world of PC gaming. I think adventure games had to sit a few years on the bench, before modern technology caught up with the constrictions they were butting up against in the 2D world. Otherwise, they couldn't expand the genre and keep up the visual quality we expected in 2D. See the 3D Gabriel Knight game for an example of what I'm talking about.

Now, though, 3D technology is good. It's underused pretty frequently, but looking at Psychonauts, Splinter Cell, Metroid Prime, Beyond Good and Evil, Half Life 2 - Thats a huge myriad of visual styles, each of which could easily be applied to adventure game worlds and genres we remember from the "2D golden years."

3D is ready. Full visual immersion in the game world. Realtime physics models. So needed. Now is the time. Or rather, about a year and a half or two years ago was the time, but now nobody is making the leap. Why? Well... see my above post for why. :)

[Intrepid Homoludens]

3D is ready. Full visual immersion in the game world. Realtime physics models. So needed. Now is the time. Or rather, about a year and a half or two years ago was the time, but now nobody is making the leap. Why? Well... see my above post for why. :)

It's been ready for the last 3 years! (http://www.mysterium.ch/real/trailer-448-e.html) (a beautiful, jawdropping trailer for realMYST, released Nov. 2000)

How on earth do you criticize graphics that have made you weep with their sheer beauty, or left you staring at the screen with your mouth hanging wide open? The gentle lapping of the waves at the shore, the buildings hazy through the mist (NO pun intended), the sky during a storm... realMYST could easily have been produced as a work of art, and it would have ranked right up there with the best.

Well, OK, a criticism--realMYST has graphically spoiled me forever. I don't think I'll be able to put up with certain games I review after experiencing such beauty. The textures in the game are amazing, rivaling any other game you can name.

Gamespy review (http://www.gamespy.com/reviews/november00/realmyst/) by Tamara "Curacao" Schembri ;)

[remixor]

realMYST

Well, yeah, but just about all adventures have a whole lot more character interaction than Myst, and it's a lot harder to get really good-looking character models than it is to get good-looking environments. I am only very recently starting to see character models for which I don't feel like I'm just "settling." Even in current games I could do with some nicer character models. Now, I'm not complaining at all; I'm still amazed at graphics these days, but I think it's a bit unfair to say something like "the technology was available three years ago." And that's not even taking account factors like the already enormous popularity of Myst which I'm sure guaranteed at least decent sales, and the fact that since realMyst is a remake there were less costs to expend for non-visual elements. Not to bash realMyst, I'm sure it's good, but you really can't put it out as an example and say "All adventure games should do this!"

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Not to bash realMyst, I'm sure it's good, but you really can't put it out as an example and say "All adventure games should do this!"

Did I ever once even state that all adventure games should do this? Did I?

You'd better be extremely fast with yanking out those words you've just put in my mouth, because I just might snap it shut and bite your hand off in the process. :D

[remixor]

Ok, forgive me for that bit ;)

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Okay, forgiven! *whew*, thank gawwd! The thought of my swallowing your bloody hand was not my idea of dinner at all. :eek:

[BacardiJim]

BacardiJim I think your essay is evil. It seems to boil down to finding goodness in... stunting evolution in the adventure game genre by catering to a demographic who desires nothing but the status quo.
Well, it seems that unlike many others, you at least halfway understood the point, Jake.

What I was doing was pointing out that the LARGEST demographic of the adventure game market LIKES the status quo. And that this market can't (or at least shouldn't) be ignored by either the gaming industry (who actually knows which side its bread is buttered on and thus is continuing to give them more of the same) or by other gamers who don't understand why the developers continue to crank out "boring old p-n-c games."

It is the nature of youth to rebel against the old standards of their seniors. To resent the stodginess of the status quo and cry for a change. I understand that. I used to be young too. But the funny thing is that eventually those youths mature, their values change, and they are the ones yelling at the next generation to "turn down that damn crap music!"

Recognizing that the people who spend the most money on a product like that product just the way it is isn't evil. It's financially sound.

Wanting change and progress in a product isn't evil. Even demanding that change in the face of an overwhelming majority who doesn't want change isn't evil. It is often stupid or pointless, but not evil.

Not respecting or valuing the opinions of those who have gone before you in a field and ridiculing their tastes or their physical abilities just because they are older than you are rather than respecting that they might have some wisdom or insight to offer.... now that starts getting into the "evil" territory.

I'm not against technological changes in the adventure game industry. But many of the core demographic of adventure gamers are. I think they deserved to have their point of view expressed, since it is their dollars that have kept the genre limping along but alive for the last 8 years or so. Is that evil?

[SirDave]

Wow, this thread, like the Enterprise, has gone where no man has gone before (and there weren't any women over 40 on board ;) )

Re: BacardiJim's:

Fact: Older (40+) women make up the largest single sector of the adventure game market.

I think a figure of 20+ would have been better. On some 'other' AG forums, the majority of posters are definitely women over 20 and I think they also represent the largest sector of the AG market. I think we all accept the fact that AGs generally attract more women than men and I'm sure most of us know why.

I'm actually very thankful for it, because if adventure gaming depended just on the male buyers, there wouldn't be much of a market, period! My only gripe is that, women, disproportionally to men, don't like my favorite AG game genre: the Myst, Riven & clone group! (I know, I know, there are exceptions and I'm dearly thankful for them- you know who you are!).

[Garyos]

Phew! I managed to read through the whole thing! :D

As a 20 - Male gamer, I guess I shouldn't have a say in this, but....



I haven't played a new adventure game in more than a YEAR.

Why? Because all the adventures coming out are all the same! (And this has nothing to do with point and click.....) If I don't have any games that I want to play, I don't buy a game just because it is somewhat LIKE something I'd want to play. I play adventures to experience stories, so if there's no AGs that seems interesting or fun to play for me, I'll watch a movie or read a friggin BOOK instead. I mean, geeze-Louise, there are more things to do than playing adventures, without having to kill aliens. :rolleyes:


I don't know exactly what my point is with this, but we were asked to state our opinions. This is mine.

[SirDave]

Phew! I managed to read through the whole thing! :D

As a 20 - Male gamer, I guess I shouldn't have a say in this, but....
I play adventures to experience stories, so if there's no AGs that seems interesting or fun to play for me, I'll watch a movie or read a friggin BOOK instead. I mean, geeze-Louise, there are more things to do than playing adventures, without having to kill aliens. :rolleyes:
I don't know exactly what my point is with this, but we were asked to state our opinions. This is mine.

With all due respect, aren't you supposed to have an idea what your point is if you're stating your opinion?

You describe yourself as a gamer so I assume you're playing computer games besides AGs. I play the popular Action-3d games (Medal of Honor) in addition to AGs and one could say there is no earth-shaking reason to be playing them any more than AGs. If your point is that you're not finding AGs interesting or fun to play then fine, maybe you're just not in an AG mode right now- My guess, is that your lack of AG interest has more to do with that than the quality of the AG games right now because from where I stand, recent games like TLJ, Syberia, Rhem, and Dark Fall are pretty darn good games no matter what AGs in the past you compare them to!

[BacardiJim]

And don't forget Salammbo which managed to be quite original despite the fact that there is "no original way left to tell a story through a 2D point-and-click interface." ;)

[SirDave]

despite the fact that there is "no original way left to tell a story through a 2D point-and-click interface." ;)

BJ- I think we just need to accept the fact that when it comes to this subject some people are living in a parallel universe. ;)

[BacardiJim]

SirDave: Maybe we can send copies of Salammbo, Faust, Cosmology of Kyoto, I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream, Blue Ice and Faust through a wormhole to demonstrate to them that just because they can't imagine a new way of telling a story through a "dead" format doesn't mean nobody else can?

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Okay, you two, you forget that adventure games are story among other crucial elements. Never mind the story for now, the fact is that there are adventure gamers who are sick and tired of the same stupid 'find-the-key' puzzles, the inane Rube Goldberg puzzle (http://www.nycenet.edu/dis/mst/images/handout1.gif), the same old 'solve-puzzle-get-story' schtick, the stale and very frustrating 'find-the-pixel' hunt. That's what I mean by developers needing a good kick in the ass to get their creative and originality juices flowing again. They're so damn lazy as to never think outside the box when the box is what is partly limiting them in the first place.

I don't give a damn if they use point-&-click or tell a new weird story. What's important to me is that overall experience - conceptual depth, fresh design approach, and gameplay that surprises me because I would never think an adventure game would be capable of it.

With all due respect, aren't you supposed to have an idea what your point is if you're stating your opinion?

You describe yourself as a gamer so I assume you're playing computer games besides AGs. I play the popular Action-3d games (Medal of Honor) in addition to AGs and one could say there is no earth-shaking reason to be playing them any more than AGs. If your point is that you're not finding AGs interesting or fun to play then fine, maybe you're just not in an AG mode right now- My guess, is that your lack of AG interest has more to do with that than the quality of the AG games right now because from where I stand, recent games like TLJ, Syberia, Rhem, and Dark Fall are pretty darn good games no matter what AGs in the past you compare them to!

With due respect, did Garyos not already state his point? What he meant to say was that he has experienced freshness in other genres, venture to say that developers in those genres have been playing around with new ways of gameplay and looking at the world. There are also recent and upcoming games that should give gamers experiences they've never had before or have rarely ever had, particularly in adventure games - Call of Cthulhu's sanity meter and absence of a HUD; Tron 2.0's light filled cyberworld deep inside a computer (where no adventure game has gone before); Half-Life 2's flexible artificial intelligence and 'you-are-there' narrative approach; Deus Ex 2's gameplay based on making ethical decisions and staying responsible for them for the duration of the story and game. Who's to say that these kind of fresh elements should never be considered for a classic adventure game? Why haven't adventure game devs played around with these elements regardless of the game being 2D point-&-click or 3D or whatever?

[SirDave]

SirDave: Maybe we can send copies of Salammbo, Faust, Cosmology of Kyoto, I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream, Blue Ice and Faust through a wormhole.....

I tried using a 'wormhole'- didn't work! However, I am working on something that is entirely my own idea. I'm calling it a.....yeah! a Linking Book!

Intrepid- Re:
"Okay, you two...." (picture SirDave and BacardiJim cowering in the corner)

"That's what I mean by developers needing a good kick in the ass to get their creative and originality juices flowing again. They're so damn lazy as to never think outside the box when the box is what is partly limiting them in the first place."

Okay, I know what yer saying, but I'm trying to think of what more developers can do. My guess is that they spend an awful lot of time before they start an AG project trying to avoid being redundant and creating just a clone. For instance, look at games as diverse as Syberia and Rhem. Don't they bring something new to the table that is not quite like any of the other games even if the formats are similiar to past games.

So, what would you come up with to rejuvenate the genre? My sense is that the only alternative would be to jazz up the games with more 3d and action which would do nothing but infuriate the majority of AG gamers (including myself)!

EDIT: Okay, I guess you essentially answered my question in an edit while I was writing this post. You make some interesting points to ponder. However, don't some of the examples lead us more into action game territory?

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Okay, I know what yer saying, but I'm trying to think of what more developers can do. My guess is that they spend an awful lot of time before they start an AG project trying to avoid being redundant and creating just a clone. For instance, look at games as diverse as Syberia and Rhem. Don't they bring something new to the table that is not quite like any of the other games even if the formats are similiar to past games.

No, they didn't bring anything new to the table. What Syberia did was present a very beautiful, refined incarnation of what a classic adventure game can be. Rhem is essentially a Myst clone done rather well by a novice.

So, what would you come up with to 'rejuvenate' the genre? My sense is that the only alternative would be to jazz up the games with more 3d and action which would do nothing but infuriate the majority of AG gamers (including myself)!

I just edited my post above. Please read it. Not once did I mention 3D. You're lame and you lack imagination in regards what's possible for the adventure genre.

[SirDave]

You're lame and you lack imagination in regards what's possible for the adventure genre.

You may be right about the latter. As to the former, I certainly appreciate the kind remark. It makes me feel all warm, fuzzy and welcome.

P.S. please re-read my post above- I added an Edit re: your edited remarks.

[BacardiJim]

WOW! You're the last person on earth I wanted to alienate, Intrepid. After all, you are the one person to whom I "proved" the contention that older women are the "bread-and-butter" of adventure game publishers. ;) I do agree with you 200% about the same puzzles being offered over and over. Those who know me well know how I rail again and again about the "slide-the-paper-under-the-door-and-poke-the-key-out" puzzle being used in two out of three adventure games released in the last 8 years. (See both my review of Darkfall on GB and my upcoming review of Lost Files of Sherlock Holmes: The Case of the Rose Tattoo for my view on that particular canard.) In my occasionally-humble opinion, the particular games I mentioned presented both fresh puzzles (for the most part...) and (more importantly) fresh approaches to p-n-c puzzling. And even those that fell back on some tried-and-true puzzles (Faust, Salammbo) at least presented a fresh way of telling a story. Surely you can't argue that Blue Ice wasn't original in both departments? Or Kyoto? Or even (the one damn poke-the-key-out puzzle aside) Post Mortem

I agree that developers need a kick in the pants. I agree that some innovation is needed. I contend that to the mainstay of adventure gaming (those 40+ women) that the story is the primary component. And I further contend to them (as well as to the rest of you) that there is a galaxy of further innovation possible in both puzzling and storytelling within an interface that we can all feel comfortable with.

Just because the generic "you" can't imagine something new doesn't mean nobody can. It's true that 2D p-n-c innovation is notoriously missing lately. That doesn't mean it can't or doesn't exist. I'd like to think my examples demonstrate that. And people who claim it can't exist are demonstrating their own lack of imagination.

[EDIT: This post now seems out-of-date considering the various edits that have gone on while I was writing it.]

[remixor]

I don't know how to phrase this question in a way that can guarantee I won't come off as "ageist" or something (which I am assuredly not, despite apparent claims to the contrary), but if story is indeed the most important aspect of adventure games for the demographic you speak of, why are they keeping the genre alive through crappy Adventure Company games, most of which are fairly derivative and stale? Sure, there are exceptions like TLJ and (from what I hear) Syberia, but those are the games that are good enough that lots of people are buying them anyway. If story is indeed the most important factor, what's the big deal about controls? Shouldn't a game stand on its own merits, interface notwithstanding? I submit BS3 as an example, despite the fact that I know you didn't explicitly mention it in the first place. I completely agree with those 40+ women that story is paramount in the genre. And while of course there is NO reason whatsoever that a point-and-click game shouldn't be quite excellent in other areas, it seems at least a bit likely that adventure developers willing to break ground in areas such as interface and gameplay may be the same ones attempting to create as full and rich a story as possible.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Okay, you two! (http://forums.3drealms.com/ubb/tongue.gif I'm gonna keep calling you guys that from now on whenever you post near each other - nya!!) BJ, you didn't exactly 'prove' anything to me, at least not formally and officially. I had to go dig up all those links that you could have done yourself, remember http://burns.thefinaldimension.org/contrib/geno/wink.gif?

My point is that I'm a strong advocate of diversity for the adventure genre. If you really think about it, the adventure game is probably the most fertile genre out there to be open to diversification. Think about it. For example, first person shooters are pretty much limited to.....well, point of view and action - just aim and shoot. Sure, you can throw a story in, it's been done very well (No One Lives Forever, Half-Life, etc.), but the fact is that the delineation itself limits you to what you can do. Great story, yes, but in the end you still have to aim and shoot. Same thing with RPGs; you can have story, interaction, whatever, but in the end it's still all about lootin and hacking dead orcs 10,000 times to rack up skill points. And most RPGs fall into the same trap of D&D mentality, again the delineation itself limits you to what you can do.

Hmmm....the adventure game. First, forget all about 2D p-&-c vs. real time 3D. Let's start with theme and story. What hasn't been explored? This is one of my pet peeves about the genre. I am f@#king sick of Knights Templars, Atlantis, Egypt, yaddah yaddah yaddah. How about, for example, a highly realistic and mature story about psychological child abuse? Or a classic Hollywood romantic screwball comedy in the style of Bringing Up Baby (http://www.sensesofcinema.com/images/directors/02/bringing.jpg)? Next, let's work with narrative. How about a game where at the beginning you must choose one of 5 characters to play and must keep that character for the entire game? Once you finish the game you can go back and play a different character, thus experience the story and game from an entirely different perspective, with different kinds of puzzles. How about introducing artificial intelligence? How about a murder mystery in which the non-playable characters are smart enough to observe your every move and react accordingly, building for themselves a profile of you as you are doing of them? Most of the puzzles would be dialogue based, a matter of outsmarting or tricking them for information. No adventure game has ever done that, and yet we are seeing strides with A.I. in other genres, why should we adventure gamers be denied? Again, notice that I never even suggested 3D here.

See, this is the kind of brainstorming I want those lame developers to do. After all, we are the ones who end up playing (or not playing) the games.

[BacardiJim]

remixor: Go back and READ the comments from the "decrepit women" who have tried to tell you that they are uncomfortable with hybrid keyboard controls and new experimentations with interface.

Intrepid: I'm pretty sure that Blade Runner has an AI that adapts the story to your actions. In fact, I know it, since I am 2/3 of the way through it at the moment. And there are variations on the "pick-your-character-and-the-story-is-different" motif going back to Indiana Jones. They have been tried in adventure games before. They just haven't had the chance to be fully developed yet. Some developer tries it, gets critical accolades, and then the company goes out of business. (Or, in the case of Indy, their market was the kid-twitchers and they didn't run with it.) The fact is that you are making the point for me... there is a wealth of ways to tell a story in a traditional interface out there. Too many writers/engineers are thinking "inside the box." THAT is more the problem than a game's perspective! There are a thousand new ways to tell a story and present puzzles in a p-n-c interface. There are a thousand thousand new ways to tell a story and present puzzles in a 3D-direct-control interface. DON'T BLAME THE INTERFACE! DON'T BLAME THE PERSPECTIVE! And, finally, DON'T BLAME THE WOMEN WHO MAKE UP THE BIGGEST CHUNK OF THE SALES AND HATE COMPLEX CONTROLS! Don't even blame TAC... at least they are trying to keep the genre afloat (for their own profit) and are snapping up adventure games of many various types (for their own profit) to offer us.

[Kode]

There are a thousand new ways to tell a story and present puzzles in a p-n-c interface. There are a thousand thousand new ways to tell a story and present puzzles in a 3D-direct-control interface.

But where? :D

Given that that's the primary problem, many developers perhaps just take the step in the other direction - that is making a game look good before they think about making the game good period.

[BacardiJim]

Oh, and Intrepid.... as far as the stats you dug up, reread them and you will see that they all dealt with game-sales figures as a whole and not adventure games, that one of the links called the very study that most of the others were based on into question, and then remember that 2 out of every 3 adventure games is bought online and not through a retail outlet and that those figures aren't included in "official" sales figures.

Errrr..... which would make you question my entire thesis if you examined those facts too closely... so forget what I just said. :D

[BacardiJim]

I can only suggest that you hang out in The Underground forum, krkode. There are a thousand innovations left for p-n-c games. And most of them are likely to come from independent developers. Of course, TAC will buy them up as soon as they crop up. It's up to you to determine of that is a good thing or a bad thing. ;)

[remixor]

remixor: Go back and READ the comments from the "decrepit women" who have tried to tell you that they are uncomfortable with hybrid keyboard controls and new experimentations with interface.

Only if you go back and READ one of your earlier posts in which YOU were the first person to use the term "decrepit" in reference to older women. You were obviously being sarcastic or ironic, and I've tried to tell YOU that I did not mean it seriously either. I also assume you realize this, so please stop acting as if I was somehow being serious.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

They have been tried in adventure games before. They just haven't had the chance to be fully developed yet...

Bingo.

[gives BJ a gourmet rum chocolate chunk cookie]

Oh, and Intrepid.... as far as the stats you dug up, reread them and you will see that they all dealt with game-sales figures as a whole and not adventure games, that one of the links called the very study that most of the others were based on into question, and then remember that 2 out of every 3 adventure games is bought online and not through a retail outlet and that those figures aren't included in "official" sales figures.

Errrr..... which would make you question my entire thesis if you examined those facts too closely... so forget what I just said. :D

I spent over an hour trying to dig up stats. I could not find a single one that outlines the adventure game market that specifically.

[BacardiJim]

remixor: And you were the one who insulted them, saying (and I paraphrase here) "Anybody can use a keyboard, so anybody can use keyboard controls." "Tell gramma she's too old." "Clicking quickly on a single object is no harder than using a combination keyboard/mouse interface." All this despite the fact that several "mature women" were telling you that there is a problem with them using a complex interface.

[Jake]

... if story is indeed the most important aspect of adventure games for the demographic you speak of, why are they keeping the genre alive through crappy Adventure Company games, most of which are fairly derivative and stale? Sure, there are exceptions like TLJ and (from what I hear) Syberia, but those are the games that are good enough that lots of people are buying them anyway.

Hear hear!


I have to say that that part of BacardiJim's argument seems to sound sort of like demanding that all novels of the romantic variety be formulaic bodice-rippers whose form hasnt changed since the 50's, and on top of that, all we should be talking about is how one of these forumlaic games is better than the other.


I have to also take issue with SirDave citing "TLJ, Syberia, Rhem, and Dark Fall" as examples of adventure games that aren't played out and cliche. Maybe Syberia can escape, and I'm sure people will be mad at me for not saying "TLJ can also escape," but those games are by and large the epitome of what Garyos was talking about when he said that all adventure games these days are the same. Was Rhem included in that list as a joke? I played Riven and enjoyed it, but I don't think I need to play it again as Rhem, and if I do, I certainly wont be telling people that I'm playing a game that totally re-imagines the genre and is non-formulaic.

[BacardiJim]

Intrepid: That's why I went with the facts I had at hand. They didn't convince anybody.... but at least they convinced you into being convinced. ;)

I will add, as a footnote, part of Jane Jensen's open farewell letter to Sierra.

Does that mean there's no room for good, in-depth story-telling in this business? No. Though I do think the gaming industry faces a serious, serious challenge: to reach out to the kinds of players who would prefer exploration and story over twitch and violence. Let's face it--we (and now I presume to speak for adventure devotees everywhere) are not going to get some joystick jockey's heart and soul. Let him go. Send him positive thoughts. But our very own audience does exist. A publisher for Random House recently told me that the fiction market is completely supported by women, ages 25-50. Those women buy some books, honey. They suck up some serious tree loads of printed word. In other words, the older woman already entirely supports one branch of the entertainment industry. She is fully capable of supporting another one that has a huge crossover market.

Hybrid controls is one way of re-invograting the adventure game market. Finding innovative ways to tell a story with minimal interface difficulties is the more lucrative one.

[Jackal]

Jim, the only thing dead around here is the horse you're still beating. I thought you'd quit while you were behind. The one and only problem here is that you've invented an opponent that simply doesn't exist, and have come out swinging blindly. THAT is what people are protesting.

You tried to pass off some observations as "fact", and people called you on it. (Incidentally, you blatantly misrepresented the one source you weakly used to defend your argument. You claimed that 59% of the JA poll respondents were female, when in fact the 59% was male. Perhaps Wajus would be kind enough to loan you his new reading glasses when he's finished with them :crazy: ). But that's neither here nor there. For the sake of argument, no one really gives a rat's rear end whether the percentage of 40+ year old women gamers is 30% or 70%. No one with any sense is arguing that this particular demographic is NOT a sizable one OR is most comfortable with point and clicks. You did both yourself and your "cause" a disservice by playing too loose with the numbers for no reason.

What DOES matter is that you're repeatedly railing against people (mainly young males) for being disrespectful and even antagonizing towards this demographic, and "demanding" that the future cater to them. Strange, then, that the attitudes demonstrated here do nothing of the sort. I've seen maturity, flexibility, accommodation, etc. from pretty much everyone that's posted here, though not all are as articulate as others (as should be expected). So who are these people you're decrying as the scourge of older women and the status quo? A couple of extremists that you've encountered elsewhere? Big whoop. If you've got a problem with some snotnosed kids who run their mouths off, take it up with them. Don't take those isolated experiences and generalize about the tyranny of youth and instill needless paranoia.

Or maybe it's the precious few developers with both the vision and the resources to push the technological envelope that you consider the enemy. You say there's nothing wrong with wanting change and progress, but you berate one of the few willing to stake their reputations on an important product? Hypocritical, to say the least.

So who's the enemy? I still don't know. No one knows, because there isn't one. So again, the point of this thread (and now ongoing reinforcement) is what? I won't call it an editorial as you do, because it wasn't commissioned as an editorial and wasn't accepted as one, which you admitted yourself. It was just an opinion thread in a public forum. It's you that isn't liking what you heard in response, and you've ignored most of the excellent points made and questions asked. I can only assume you expected to be agreed with and admired, but you missed that mark by a wide margin, and rightly so.

And who are you representing again? A group of women who weren't aware they had an enemy until you deceived them into thinking they do? And now you're claiming that many of them "are against technological changes in the adventure game industry". Really? REALLY??!! This is the biggest pile of manure you've shoveled yet. Not a single woman here or ANYWHERE that I've ever read has said she's opposed to progress or innovation. The only women who seemed to support you were those that bought into the lie that their favoured form of adventure games is somehow threatened, which is categorically ridiculous. Those that didn't believe it all agreed that point and clicks are in no jeopardy of disappearing, and that there IS room for innovation in the genre. You thank those like hagstrumpa for "agreeing" with you... the same hagstrumpa who is MOST eagerly waiting for BS3 above all other games?

So since you won't actually TELL us who you're opposing, hopefully people will willingly volunteer if THEY are part of this menacing conspiracy called LRAG (Logan's Run of Adventure Gaming :shifty: ). Yes, those of you that are actually DEMANDING that the industry ignore the poor, helpless women that need BJ defending them, STOP making point and clicks and replace them with 3D, action-based twitchfests with lousy story, clumsy controls, and a convoluted interface, please raise your hand.

P.S. The current theme of the various ways AG's can improve and innovate is wonderfully constructive. No villains; just people who love the genre brainstorming together. Not so hard, is it?

[BacardiJim]

And who are you representing again? A group of women who weren't aware they had an enemy until you deceived them into thinking they do? And now you're claiming that many of them "are against technological changes in the adventure game industry". Really? REALLY??!! This is the biggest pile of manure you've shoveled yet. Not a single woman here or ANYWHERE that I've ever read has said she's opposed to progress or innovation. The only women who seemed to support you were those that bought into the lie that their favoured form of adventure games is somehow threatened, which is categorically ridiculous.
Funny, it took me over 20 years (10 of it in various parts of the industry) to reach the conclusion that formed the thesis of my editorial. It took you less than 5 minutes to insult any woman that agreed with me. I guess that makes you better or more astute than me?

[Intrepid Homoludens]

...That's why I went with the facts I had at hand. They didn't convince anybody.... but at least they convinced you into being convinced.

:P Finish that sentence, dear. You only managed to convince me to do my own research, considering your 'convincers' were strictly anecdotal and empirical, thereby wide open to challenges based on hard statistics and evidence.

I will add, as a footnote, part of Jane Jensen's open farewell letter to Sierra.

Gotta love that broad. But it's amusingly ironic that the one adventure game designer you quoted also happens to be known for her innovations within the genre. Wasn't GK3 a real time 3D game? :D

In other words, the older woman already entirely supports one branch of the entertainment industry. She is fully capable of supporting another one that has a huge crossover market.

Not that we should ignore the upcoming market of aging younger gamers coming into their own, who grew up with Doom and Tomb Raider, and therefore demonstrate considerable skills in handling other types of interfaces in addition to the mouse.

Hybrid controls is one way of re-invograting the adventure game market. Finding innovative ways to tell a story with minimal interface difficulties is the more lucrative one.

Well said! Let's kick some lame adventure game devs asses!

Why not have an adventure game with a customizable interface - all things to everyone? Hell, first person shooters and strategy games have been doing it for years!

[remixor]

Funny, it took me over 20 years (10 of it in various parts of the industry) to reach the conclusion that formed the thesis of my editorial. It took you less than 5 minutes to insult any woman that agreed with me. I guess that makes you better or more astute than me?

Speaking of beating dead horses, could you possibly respond to anyone's point in any way other than accusing people of insulting women?

[Jackal]

Funny, it took me over 20 years (10 of it in various parts of the industry) to reach the conclusion that formed the thesis of my editorial. It took you less than 5 minutes to insult any woman that agreed with me. I guess that makes you better or more astute than me?

Well, it means I can read. If that makes me more astute than you, then yes. :rolleyes:

Feel free to quote any woman that has specifically opposed innovation in adventure games - NOT the bastardized hybrid crap you're claiming that everyone seems to be demanding. I must have missed it in the dazzling glow of your credentials.

[Jen]

BacardiJim, put up or shut up. Let’s see your resume. If you’ve been an industry player for 10 years, how come nobody ever heard of you up until your recent burgeoning onto the unsuspecting online scene? I think you are telling us what *you* want out of *your* adventure gaming experience, nothing more and nothing less.

I think the whole substance of your rant is based on your tenure over at the Dreamcatcher forums. Stands to reason that people who hang out there like Dreamcatcher games, right? Stands to reason that you like Dreamcatcher games, right? I’ll even give you the likelihood that a preponderance of the posters over at the Dreamcatcher forums who like the Dreamcatcher games are women over 40. That’s fine! More power to all of them (and you!). But don’t suppose that just because you want a particular type of adventure gaming experience means that everybody does! I’m sure a lot of people agree with you, but another whole lot of people don’t.

You are totally entitled to your own opinions, same as any of us. I’m sure you’ll make a great game reviewer because you are articulate and opinionated, but you are not such a good people reviewer because you leave no room for any opinions other than your own. Go ahead and speak for yourself all you want, by all means stand up for all of your own wants and desires, whatever they be, but please stop presuming to speak for anybody else and particularly the members of a demographic to which you don’t even belong! What gall! We don’t need you to do our talking for us, to tell us what kind of games we are supposed to enjoy, to tell companies what kinds of games they are to market to us. Just who in the hell do you think you are?

....

Intrepid, I really like you. You have the soul of an artist.

[SirDave]

Okay, you two! (http://forums.3drealms.com/ubb/tongue.gif I'm gonna keep calling you guys that from now on whenever you post near each other - nya!!)

How about, for example, a highly realistic and mature story about psychological child abuse? Or a classic Hollywood romantic screwball comedy in the style of Bringing Up Baby (http://www.sensesofcinema.com/images/directors/02/bringing.jpg)? Next, let's work with narrative. How about a game where at the beginning you must choose one of 5 characters to play and must keep that character for the entire game? Once you finish the game you can go back and play a different character, thus experience the story and game from an entirely different perspective, with different kinds of puzzles. How about introducing artificial intelligence? How about a murder mystery in which the non-playable characters are smart enough to observe your every move and react accordingly, building for themselves a profile of you as you are doing of them? Most of the puzzles would be dialogue based, a matter of outsmarting or tricking them for information. No adventure game has ever done that, and yet we are seeing strides with A.I. in other genres, why should we adventure gamers be denied? Again, notice that I never even suggested 3D here.

See, this is the kind of brainstorming I want those lame developers to do. After all, we are the ones who end up playing (or not playing) the games.

Ah, I don't know that BacardiJim guy. Never heard of 'im before and from now on I'll have nothing to do with him. I'll reject any opinions he has, bad-mouth him at every opportunity and never post near him again, but pleez don't keep me in the corner with him. Bad BJ! Bad BJ!

Seriously, Intrepid, I'm starting to understand where yer coming from and, I have to admit, it's far beyond (in generally a good way) the usual suggestions to enliven AGs. Unfortunately, I think it would take the sort of dedication, financial and otherwise that companies just aren't willing to risk in today's market. You would need a team of skilled, forward-thinking people with time and money to design in the innovations you suggest plus come up with the usual plot, characters, art etc. It might be done if the result was a big seller, but that's highly unlikely given what AGs are making these days isn't it?

[Kode]

You would need a team of skilled, forward-thinking people with time and money to design in the innovations you suggest plus come up with the usual plot, characters, art etc.

What we need is a League of Extraordinary Gentlemen! *D

[BacardiJim]

Jen: I will attempt to take your points in the "dead-but-traditional" one at a time manner.

BacardiJim, put up or shut up. Let’s see your resume. If you’ve been an industry player for 10 years, how come nobody ever heard of you up until your recent burgeoning onto the unsuspecting online scene? I already posted my credentials. If you didn't bother to read them, that's not my fault. If you haven't heard of me, that seems your shortcoming as well as mine.
I think the whole substance of your rant is based on your tenure over at the Dreamcatcher forums. Stands to reason that people who hang out there like Dreamcatcher games, right? Stands to reason that you like Dreamcatcher games, right? How many Adventure Company games have you seen me tout? Salammbo, based on the great artwork and originality, and Post Mortem because it TRIED to be an anomaly: a non-linear AI-responsive murder mystery adventure. Toss in Riddle of the Sphinx and you have pretty much exhausted my endorsement of Adventure Comapny games.

Go ahead and speak for yourself all you want, by all means stand up for all of your own wants and desires, whatever they be, but please stop presuming to speak for anybody else and particularly the members of a demographic to which you don’t even belong! I guess you missed all of the posts by Lucky's Rainbow, Emma, Fairygdmther and the all the supportive quotes from the women that got scared off from ever posting here again because of all the antagonism that declared that I was on the right track. At least I bothered to deal with other demographics and ask their opinions (for a decade) before I posted the editorial.

Finally, it's odd that you should praise Intrepid and vilify me, since he and I are really the closest in agreement. Right, Intrepid? ;)

[BacardiJim]

And Dave..... you're fired as my campaign manager. lol

Intrepid: You have a PM I don't know if you've read or not.

Dave...between the three of us we could take over and rule the industry! All we need is some money.... and an idiot savant programmer who can make our visions reality....

[Jen]

I already posted my credentials. If you didn't bother to read them, that's not my fault. If you haven't heard of me, that seems your shortcoming as well as mine.

I read this whole thing more than once. I guess I missed that part all right. Either that or it wasn't there. Let's see it again. Find it for me, please, good sir, since I am already so dependent on you for everything else.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Intrepid, I really like you. You have the soul of an artist.

http://www.smilies.okipages.com/s/otn/shocked/pinkblush.gif Oh...thank you. (Sorry, I'm terrible at accepting compliments)

Seriously, Intrepid, I'm starting to understand where yer coming from and, I have to admit, it's far beyond (in generally a good way) the usual suggestions to enliven AGs. Unfortunately, I think it would take the sort of dedication, financial and otherwise that companies just aren't willing to risk in today's market. You would need a team of skilled, forward-thinking people with time and money to design in the innovations you suggest plus come up with the usual plot, characters, art etc. It might be done if the result was a big seller, but that's highly unlikely given what AGs are making these days isn't it?

This is precisely why many of us are holding our collective breath over Broken Sword: The Sleeping Dragon, it's why Charles Cecil, Revolution, and TAC evidently believe in it. Far more than TLJ or Syberia put together, BS:TSD will help decide the primary direction that the adventure genre will go, conceptually and commercially. A lot is riding on this game. If it's even just relatively successful it - as well as Uru: Ages Beyond Myst - will ignite the much needed changes for the genre, not just in terms of graphics, but also in how an adventure game can and will be experienced in the next several years. TLJ and Syberia proved that the adventure genre is far from dead. Now it's up to BS:TSD and Uru to prove that the adventure genre can also move forward and outward. The [commercial] success of these two titles will rouse other developers and publishers to explore new ways of designing adventure games. Cecil, the Miller Brothers, and Jensen are the adventure genre's equivalent of Warren Spector, Peter Molyneaux, and Simon Woodruffe.

[Steve Ince]

I've been watching this thread with some interest. The thing that strikes me is that in trying to use statistics and demographics as an argument for or against something is to forget that we're talking about people. Grouping people together in any way can be a very dangerous thing because it can stop you appreciating the fact that they are all individuals with their own tastes.

One thing I've found is that the vast majority of people will embrace change if they feel the change is for the betterment of the thing that's changing. Radical change is always a concern because it can mean that points of reference are thrown out of whack. But steady, progressive change is like evolution - if the change works it will survive, if it doesn't then it will get dropped and something else will be tried next time.

Personally, I'm not interested in reaching a particular demographic. All that concerns me is creating the best game I possibly can and the rest should take care of itself. My feeling is that if I can create something I can be proud of, then it's more than likely others will enjoy that creation, too.

[Garyos]

Well said, Steve.

I think a big problem here is that some here thinks the most important thing for a game is that it should be "economically viable" and reach it's "target demographic". IMO, adventure games are ART, and artists should care about their crations first, and their profits second (or ninth, or whatever). And in art, different artists have different visions, different approaches, different tastes. Going against those visions just to please the most people would lead to the REAL death of adventures, IMHO. And as has been said a billion times, there ARE developers out there who has a vision that corresponds with what the (supposedly) majority of adventure gamers search for. What's the friggin problem?????


(And I should stop posting here, I'm not articulate enough :sad: )

[Steve Ince]

I'm not against making a game economically viable. In fact, this must be uppermost in a developer's thoughts or they will soon be out of business. What I'm saying is rather than working out how to please the largest demographic which could lead to a creatively stifled game, I would rather make sure that the game is one that will sell well due to its creative originality and exciting gameplay.

[SirDave]

And Dave..... you're fired as my campaign manager. lol

Dave...between the three of us we could take over and rule the industry! All we need is some money.... and an idiot savant programmer who can make our visions reality....

Re:comment A: I never liked being your campaign manager anyway. I've always thought I should be the big shot and have been looking for ways to politically 'take you out' ;)

Re:comment B: Yes! Yes! I've been thinking about that a lot lately. We could control everything. There would be special punishment for all Myst, Riven & clone naysayers, a brainwashing program for anyone that doesn't agree with us, the list goes on.... And, most importantly, with our new design team we could have the industry create games according to our specific demands. Like no female heroines, macho male plot lines, point & clicking everywhere, yeh-eh-eh!

[twifkak]

Funny, it took me over 20 years (10 of it in various parts of the industry) to reach the conclusion that formed the thesis of my editorial. It took you less than 5 minutes to insult any woman that agreed with me. I guess that makes you better or more astute than me?
He was frustrated. Please, in the future, don't respond to pure rhetoric. I'm sure we've all had some sort of "speech & persuasion" class, and know what rhetoric is when we see it, so there's no reason to think you can get away with pretending he was being strictly literal.

edit:
Jen brings up a good point. Jim, you're falling for the old "correlation implies causation" fallacy. Don't.

edit #2:
Thanks for commenting, Steve. You always have a refreshingly "down to earth" point of view.

[ragnar]

Funny, it took me over 20 years (10 of it in various parts of the industry) to reach the conclusion that formed the thesis of my editorial. It took you less than 5 minutes to insult any woman that agreed with me. I guess that makes you better or more astute than me?

Then maybe that is why the thesis seems so very old? And if it took you 20 years to think it out, why does it seem to be not very well thought through?

And to insulting: If I were a woman over 40 years old, I'd be insulted by the you try to tell me that what games I would like and how physical incapable I would be and that you think that if I did have those opinions I wouldn't be able to speak for myself.

[twifkak]

And to insulting: If I were a woman over 40 years old, I'd be insulted by the you try to tell me that what games I would like and how physical incapable I would be and that you think that if I did have those opinions I wouldn't be able to speak for myself.
You don't have to imagine.

[Jen]

And another thing... :D

I guess you missed all of the posts by Lucky's Rainbow, Emma, Fairygdmther and the all the supportive quotes from the women that got scared off from ever posting here again because of all the antagonism that declared that I was on the right track. At least I bothered to deal with other demographics and ask their opinions (for a decade) before I posted the editorial.

You're doing it again. You're speaking for all of us weak, cowering women, again, because we all need a knight in shining armor and by default, because nobody else is volunteering, you're the obvious candidate, the man for the job, the one all of us would've nominated if only we had a voice.

What antagonism? What decade? We already do have our own voice! We do all of our own talking, for ourselves, on sites like Gameboomers, FFC, Womengamers, etc., as well as through our participation on more "manly" sites like AG. The only person in this thread that's insulting toward 40+ women is you with your patronizing attitude and your continuing insinuation that we need your help.

Why don't you go back and rewrite your remarks to replace "40+ women" with "-year-old men who like PNC games"? That would lend you a whole lot more credibility, at least in my eyes.

I'll show you mine if you show me yours ... resume, that is.

1979 First computer job, pre-PC.

1980-1986 Arcade gamer. Chuck E. Cheese and various local bars. High score holder (at least for a day or two) in Centipede.

1986-???? Played original Kings Quest and Leisure Suit Larry games on my parents' first home PC.

1987 Original NES owner. Player of Zelda and early Final Fantasy games, among others. Later went on to own every kind of Nintendo made as well as Playstation, PS2, Dreamcast, and Xbox consoles. Player of games on all of them.

1994 Bought my first home PC. Became PC adventure gaming fanatic.

1996 First internet connection. Regular csipga poster.

1998-2001 40-percent owner, editor, and webmistress, Just Adventure.
2000-2001 Operator of original JA Forum.

2001-present Coowner, editor, and webmistress, Four Fat Chicks.

1998-present Author of some 75 reviews, some good, some not so good, but all presenting my own opinions that I formulated and articulated all by myself.

So, you see, [I]I really have been around for nearly a decade. To date I have played more than 200 games, not all of them point-and-click, not all of them even adventure games. I love graphic adventure games, which is why I think they need a swift kick in the ass in order to retain any sort of viability.

Your turn. Where were you all this time?

Marek's been around as long as I can remember, and he's an 18-24 male. Within a few years, Marek probably will be one of the guys making the games we will be playing. What is said here may influence, in however small a way, whatever path he eventually takes. Evan Dickens has more knowledge about point-and-click adventures in his little finger than you or just about anyone else can ever hope to attain, and he's an 18-24 male. These guys have never once disrespected any group at all, let alone 40+ women. You, sir, on the other hand, are both an ageist and a sexist. Knock it off.

[Marek]

I think this topic has been pretty much exhausted after 10+ pages of posts, so I'm going to lock this thread.

The discussion isn't really going anywhere. Everyone has had their chance to make their point, and by now we should probably know where everyone stands. Instead of letting the rants go completely out of control, it's probably better to give this topic some rest. :)