LucasArts games

[Marek]

I recently got some mail from visitors who complained that Adventure Gamers was biased towards LucasArts games.

Of course, I was rather surprised by this. We gave The Dig 3 stars. EMI got 4. Loom 3.5. Grim Fandango a 4.5. No one can tell me that those aren't reasonable and balanced scores.

Adventure Gamers was only one of two websites, on the whole internet, who gave Full Throttle 2 some (careful) criticism. What I've read elsewhere went mostly along the lines of "the classic graphic adventure is BACK and knowing LucasArts it's going to be awesome!!!", not even bothering to look much into the game at all.

So, I'm wondering if it's just a handful of infrequent visitors who think we're biased, or if this is a more common perception. Let me know your honest opinion. (As you know, votes are anonymous.) Also, if anyone has any hard evidence against us, I'd like to hear it.

[James]

nah. the coverage here is pretty objective and fair (the grim fandango score aside :D). you always get some fanboys, blind and oblivious to valid criticism, but its seldom that it permeates an entire site or staff, which certainly isnt the case here.

[Kode]

So, I'm wondering if it's just a handful of infrequent visitors who think we're biased, or if this is a more common perception. Let me know your honest opinion.

I would say the former. I've never thought of your site's reviews as biased towards anything. This site has always had an impartial and good outlook on games that I personally trust for all my adventure game knowledge needs.

The only reason why anybody might think you were overly biased for LucasArts is because (perhaps this is just my opinion) they're just that good. :D Too much good saying may look like bias, but LucasArts has given us some good stuff.

[BacardiJim]

Perhaps there was a perceived bias not necessarily based on the AdventureGamers reviews of the games, but rather on the fact that the forum spent so long hosted on the LucasArts BBS? The one fact colored some people's perception of the other opinions?

Just a guess.

[Henke]

Well that is bullshit, clean and simple. :D

[Huz]

Perhpas there was a perceived bias not necessarily based on the AdventureGamers reviews of the games, but rather on the fact that the forum spent so long hosted on the LucasArts BBS? The one fact colored some people's perception of the other opinions?

Just a guess.
This is my guess too. Another example - I seem to remember you making no secret of the fact that you went around E3 with the Mixnmojo guys - things like this shouldn't necessarily make people suspect you of being biased, but inevitably it can happen.

[AGA]

I read AG for a long time before I read these forums, and I don't think you're biased. LEC made a lot fewer games than Sierra, their main "rival", but almost all those games were of an incredible quality. The truly great Sierra games were a lot more rare. The LEC games may have all gotten high scores, but they were all deserving of high scores...

[tabacco]

This is my guess too. Another example - I seem to remember you making no secret of the fact that you went around E3 with the Mixnmojo guys - things like this shouldn't necessarily make people suspect you of being biased, but inevitably it can happen.

Nor should we have made any secret about it. They're cool guys, and we enjoyed hanging out with them at E3.

[twifkak]

I've got this vague notion of you guys having more LucasArts retrospectives than Sierra retrospectives, but I haven't been reading long/regularly enough to justify that, so I've been ignoring it as brain noise.

[remixor]

I had to say "No, but you might be giving that impression." It would be absurd to think that your reviews actually had some sort of LucasArts bias--for that to be the case, you'd have to actually screen staff applications for LEC preference, or have some sort of cultish training regimen that included pro-LucasArts brainwashing. Since Adventure Gamers is a collection of people rather than a single entity, it doesn't make sense to assume that LEC would, on the whole, be given extra weight.

On the other hand, you (Marek) seem to have more of a soft spot in your heart for LucasArts games, and I would assume this is what has indirectly and directly lead to things like hanging out with the Mojo guys, being hosted on LucasForums, etc. There's nothing wrong with this at all--you're one gamer, and every gamer has their own gaming background that has resulted in their overall gaming opinions. Since you are so instrumental in the site (for obvious reasons), I think that perhaps your perceived "bias" of LEC may by default carry itself over to the rest of the site. I don't think this manifests itself in any tangible ways, it's just sort of a "feeling" people can get. As soon as any rational person starts to actually READ your content, however, this perception should vanish. Bottom line: I wouldn't worry about it.

[Huz]

Nor should we have made any secret about it. They're cool guys, and we enjoyed hanging out with them at E3.
I wasn't saying you should have. See Remixor's post for what I meant to convey.

[twifkak]

being hosted on LucasForums, etc.
Well, as far as hosting an adventure game forum, there aren't very many suitors left in America. The only other I can think of is JustAdventure.

[Firefoot]

*takes a look at the hype-o-meter*

Nope! :)

[DomStLeger]

I voted No. I can't think of any bias towards lucasarts games my self. I think BacardiJim may be right, perhaps they got that impression because of the forums and the fact the site was hosted by lucasfans.

[Firefoot]

I voted No. I can't think of any bias towards lucasarts games my self. I think BacardiJim may be right, perhaps they got that impression because of the forums and the fact the site was hosted by lucasfans.
That sure might be a reason... never thought about that myself though...

[RemiO]

Well, that's just silly. A quick look at the frontpage should proove claims like that wrong.

[MeddlingMonk]

It's possible that the person making the complaint has something against LEC.

[remixor]

Well, as far as hosting an adventure game forum, there aren't very many suitors left in America. The only other I can think of is JustAdventure.

Oh, I know. Don't get me wrong here. I've no problem at all with LF hosting AG during downtime. I thought it was very gracious of LF and the arrangement worked out well. However, I can see where that would seem a little odd to a casual reader, particuarly one who has discovered AG during its temp-forums days.

[Mattsius]

I voted no also.
I have a feeling that the temp forum being hosted on LucasForums is one major reason for why people who don't know this site or staff so well could think that you're biased towards LucasArts, but I'm sure that there were people that criticized AGers before the temp forum even existed, so the fact that you hang out with the Mojo guys is probably a big reason also, but I wouldn't worry about it too much.
When people say these kinds of things it's often a matter of jealousy, and I can very much understand how someone could be jealous of a great site like this.

I've got this vague notion of you guys having more LucasArts retrospectives than Sierra retrospectives, but I haven't been reading long/regularly enough to justify that, so I've been ignoring it as brain noise.
I've got that feeling also. It's of course understanding when you consider that Sierra is a much older adventure game maker than LucasArts is, and LucaArts' gold period happened when I think that many of you were starting to play games regularly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just the feeling I've got.

[twifkak]

Another fact is that, as forum readers, we also read the informal comments you post here, and those you usually write without any attempt to balance for bias (as should be expected). It's just a subconscious thing.

So this kind of poll would make more sense on the front page.

[Kingzjester]

If anything you may be overcritical of LEC games, just because you have a special quality scale for LEC games.

[remixor]

If anything you may be overcritical of LEC games, just because you have a special quality scale for LEC games.

I think you're right, actually. I've noticed that in the past, but it didn't even occur to me when this thread was started.



Also, I think twif is correct in saying that this would be better on the front page. After all, we can't think you guys are that biased, or we wouldn't hang around the place so much ;) That being said, it might be SLIGHTLY dangerous on the front page since it could possibly draw attention towards a non-existant-but-perceived bias to people who'd never even thought of it.

[twifkak]

Trudat.!.!

[Jake]

I guess everyone here knows that AG hosted on LucasForums just because it was almost effortless. I just needed to click the "add forum" button and make up a fake theme from some art Marek emailed me, and we were set.


I know you act surprised at the top of this post, Marek, but I've always sort of felt that the AG staff has known its perceived as being a bit LucasArts-biased and has intentionally fought against it a bit. For instance, any self respecting LucasArts-loving site would really have given Grim a 5 out of 5. :) Considering AG didn't, while giving the perfect score to Broken Sword 1, Gabriel Knight 3, and ... The Longest Journey (cough)... something's gotta be up, and I think it might be overcompensation.

[remixor]

...and I still don't know quite how to explain the disparity between MI 3 and 4. ;)


(btw, Jake, I think you could have quite a valid observation there)

[RemiO]

Damn it, I hate agreeing with Jake.
But he makes a point.
Now go give Grim a 5 and TLJ a 3.5. :shifty:

[Marek]

I would like to re-review TLJ and give it 4.5 stars to compensate for the hype it got, but it would be unethical. The score has been quoted on TLJ boxes, the website, etc.

[Maccas]

I think you might have a bias towards new games whereas most of us have a bias towards old games. Runaway and Syberia both got 4.5 and I think you'd have difficulty finding people who would rank them above a lot of your 4 star games such as Discowrld Noir, The Colonel's Bequest or Blade Runner. I agree with most of your review scores and I personally love Syberia but I think you're being affected by hype just like your TLJ review, it's just my opinion so feel free to make fun of it.

[DomStLeger]

I entirely agree with you marek, you shouldn't do retrospective reviewing for that reason.

I sort of agree with you Macca (the Syberia score was a little igh imo, though I must admit I didn't love the game so perhaps I can't fairly judge it when the majority of people seem to have done). But having said that, I think games should partly be reviewed in comparison to contempoary games, because you can't keep looking back and judging it against something like MI, because the times were so different imo, and the genre has changed.

[Marek]

That is very very true Dom, and it's also one of the major points in an editorial I'm writing for AG. Couldn't agree more!

[twifkak]

I think different reviewers have different takes on things, somewhat. (How can you not like the music????!!!) So that confuses public opinion a bit.

In any case, I'll be interested to read your thread, 'cause I'm one of those that thinks things should be compared across time, all else equal (which it isn't).

[Maccas]

I think its exactly the opposite, reviewers are lookig back and saying... well the graphics are better, the sound is beeter and its on a more epic scale, it must be a better game, when its really not, despite the "rose-coloured glasses" syndrome I think perhaps reviewers are overcompensating for it.

[Ninth]

I know it's been a long time since this thread died, but still:
as someone said, not only are you not biased, but you seem to be harsher with Lucas games, even though they're undoubtedly the best games around.
That's not bias, that's (subjective, but not entierely so) facts. I mean, at the time I played both Lucas and Sierra games, and well, Lucas were gems, whereas Sierra's where just good games.

And to say you have to give better grades to adventures just because they're newer and prettier is a nonsense. Monkey Island can be compared to Runaway, and with all it's old graphics, it's still better, on the Gameplay and Sound and story and feeling side. But Runaway gets a lot of hype because it has got prettier graphics, which I think is unfair.
Well, MI is not the best example, but to see Indy 4 and Runaway get the same grade sickens me. Indy may loose on the graphics side (I do prefer indy's graphics, but I'm being biased here), but on every other aspects it wins by a long range, and so the global grade should be a lot different. (5 for indy and 3 for runaway, I'd say)
Shouldn't it?

[Erwin_Br]

Well, our comunity might be somewhat biased towards LucasArts, but that doesn't much say about AG itself.

The same goes for JA, which forum community mostly consists of Sierra fans. I don't think JA itself is biased towards Sierra.

I guess the forum communities of both AG and JA are contributing a lot to their image. --Yes, we forum people are more important than you might think ;)

--Erwin

[Ninth]

Hm, I have to disagree, here, at least regarding JA.
I think they are biased, seeing how Space quest 1 and 5 got an A rating, while Monkey Island got a C and Indy3 à D.
To me, that's blatantly unfair.
Furthermore, I think it's weird that a guy who admits he doesn't like 3rd person game to review MI, or any Lucas game for that matter. Especially stating at the beginning that he knows he is voicing an unpopular opinion.
I mean, I'm fine with controversial reviews, as long as you can find another review to balance it, but here it's not the case; just an infamous C.
I'm angry. Too bad I don't know how to make the appropriate smiley.

[Erwin_Br]

Hm, I have to disagree, here, at least regarding JA.
I think they are biased, seeing how Space quest 1 and 5 got an A rating, while Monkey Island got a C and Indy3 à D.
To me, that's blatantly unfair.

Yes, but DOTT got A, CMI got A, Grim Fandango got A, Full Throttle got A, Indy FOA got A, need go on?

So you disagree with two ratings and that's supposed to make JA biased?

Also note that the scores for Sierra's games are quite diverse too. They're not all getting A and B scores!

Furthermore, I think it's weird that a guy who admits he doesn't like 3rd person game to review MI, or any Lucas game for that matter. Especially stating at the beginning that he knows he is voicing an unpopular opinion.
I mean, I'm fine with controversial reviews, as long as you can find another review to balance it, but here it's not the case; just an infamous C.

True, but that's a whole other discussion. I'd lie if I'd say I agree with Ray Ivey's MI and MI2 reviews. But that's just a personal opinion of course.

I'm angry. Too bad I don't know how to make the appropriate smiley.

How about: http://davh.dk/images/smiley/angry.gif

--Erwin

[Stinger]

And to say you have to give better grades to adventures just because they're newer and prettier is a nonsense. Monkey Island can be compared to Runaway, and with all it's old graphics, it's still better, on the Gameplay and Sound and story and feeling side. But Runaway gets a lot of hype because it has got prettier graphics, which I think is unfair.
Well, MI is not the best example, but to see Indy 4 and Runaway get the same grade sickens me. Indy may loose on the graphics side (I do prefer indy's graphics, but I'm being biased here), but on every other aspects it wins by a long range, and so the global grade should be a lot different. (5 for indy and 3 for runaway, I'd say)
Shouldn't it?

No. But thanks for asking. :)

- Evan

[Ninth]

Oh, ok Stinger... You don't happen to have some kind of relationship with the people who give out the grades at AG, do you? Nah, I'm sure you don't. :|

And Erwin, you're right about ratings, it's just that those I pointed out seemed so bizarre to me that I didn't really try to look them all up before I posted. My mistake.

Still, Full Throttle get more than MI? Tsk, tsk...

Oh, and how do you do smileys, generally speaking? Is there a list somewhere? Or do you have to know the shortcuts (if I may call them that)?

[syntheticgerbil]

I think you guys have a bias for Lucas Arts games and frankly I don't care because I have a bias for Lucas Arts games too.

I think you wouldn't convey this if you just tried to review many of the Sierra games that are absent from the site.

I still don't understand what makes THe Longest Journey so amazing...

[Ninth]

Er, incredible graphics, good story, interesting caracters, fun puzzles and great length is quite enough, isn't it? :shifty:

[Burge]

No, not at all. AG is the most objective ag site on teh net.

[twifkak]

I take it you found the smileys...

[Ninth]

Yes, well, it's a well-known fact that you have to ask a question before you can find the answer by yourself. :rolleyes: