Ultimate Christmas gift: create your dream adventure game

[Intrepid Homoludens]

This topic has been discussed so many times before, but I feel that, with so many new members (and anonymous guests) poking around, and the fact that it's time to ask again, it's inevitable.

Santa's more decadently philanthropic brother, Bubba Gus Claus, wants to give you your ultimate Christmas gift (or Hannukah gift, or Kwanza, etc.): Choose the most talented developers, artists, technicians, and publisher to help you create your dream adventure game based on your own original idea. Your budget is unlimited and development time is as long as you need it to be. In fact, Bubba has arranged it so that you're granted an indefinite leave-of-absence from your day job until you finish your game, with all your expenses (and your staff's), professional and personal, taken care of for the duration by Bubba himself, and a choice of anywhere in the world to develop it - a lodge in the Swiss Alps? A sprawling bungalow complex in Aruba? A loft space near the Louvre in Paris? An ancient castle in Scotland? Your choice.

Once the game is completed you must decide how it will be marketed, who would want to play it, how do you let the world know about your magnificent game so they can experience it? Go for it!

You must answer under these categories to best of your knowledge:

Technology - 2D? 3D? FMV? Point-&-click or direct control? What adventure game that you had played before had a nice graphics engine that you might want to use?
Interface - 1st person? 3rd person? All movement/interaction via mouse? Keyboard control? How would the inventory screen look?
Gameplay/Puzzles - How would you explore the world? What kind of puzzles are there?
Graphics/Atmosphere - Cartoony? Realistic?
Story/Theme - This is what we most want to know. What is your story? What happens? Who are the characters?

If you're having trouble, mention any game that features whatever it is that you're trying to describe (you can even provide a link) so we can get some idea. Don't just blurt out generic bull crap like [stupid whiny voice] "I want it point-&-click with 2D background" [/stupid whiny voice]. I want the details!! WE want the details! I want to know WHY your game is so unique, why it isn't like any other adventure we've played! Okay?

Conversely, anyone here who's already working on a game should NOT talk about it. Instead, you can discuss an idea for some other game you'd like to make without giving away too much.

I'm gonna be policing this thread and prodding people about this. You guys seriously need to jog your imagination, I'm kinda sick of people bitching about the state of adventure games and nitpicking and never really discussing ideas to help it. You have more imagination than that, let's put it to work! :7

[hagstrumpa]

Aaaah, those tiny tiny questions... I will answer this on my coffeebreak tomorrow :P

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Yes, take your time, please! This is more a brainstorming and inspirational thread than anything. You're under no pressure to give a complete answer in just one post. Think about, dream about your game!

[BacardiJim]

Although I don't have a strong preference between 2D and 3D, I'm afraid that my choice of graphics engine necessitates a 2D perspective. In all of gamedom, I have yet to encounter graphics as gorgeous as the incredible ray tracings of the original Myst games. (I know there are those who will rant on and on about how beautiful RealMyst is, but those people should play a few minutes of that game and then go back and play the original Myst or Riven. The simple fact is that the graphics are NOT as sharp and detailed in the 3D RealMyst! Same with URU.) Ray tracing requires pre-rendering, which requires either 2D or a very limited form of 3D à la Grim Fandango or MI4. Actually, I'd love to see the 3D/direct control of GF or MI4 combined with ray-traced graphics.

These are just my initial thoughts. I'm sure I'll have more to say after more thought.

[Edit: I suppose I am talking about 3D/direct control with fixed/pre-set camera views.]

[Intrepid Homoludens]

...(I know there are those who will rant on and on about how beautiful RealMyst is, but those people should play a few minutes of that game and then go back and play the original Myst or Riven. The simple fact is that the graphics are NOT as sharp and detailed in the 3D RealMyst! Same with URU.)

You know, there are other ways of immersing you into the gameworld other than sharp and detailed graphics.

I own both versions, Myst and realMyst. After playing realMyst I went back and tried Myst to compare. I nearly fell out of my chair from sheer boredom - I couldn't walk into the world, I felt like I was looking at postcards under glass, nothing moved around me, no birds and butterflies, the sky was still, there was no day/night cycle, no passionate lightning and thunderstorm in the Stoneship Age, no actual feeling of rising up, up, up to the treetops of the Channelwood Age . Even the sound in reaMyst is amazing. You hear a little frog croaking to your right, you turn and walk that way, and you actually see the frog just before it jumps into the water.

The original Myst world was frigid, cold, and infertile. realMyst made me feel that I actually had physically been in those Ages. That is my personal take. I do, however, adore other 2D games like Syberia and Grim Fandango for their thoughful inclusion of life and movement in their worlds. It that's it for me. It's not if the world is 2D or 3D, it's how alive the world is, how enveloping it can be.

These are just my initial thoughts. I'm sure I'll have more to say after more thought.

Looking forward to them! 8-)

[BacardiJim]

I guess I needn't bother, Trep. From your response, it appears that Bubba Gus Claus is only interested in giving me your ultimate game. Apparently my own preferences are just going to be shredded to pieces.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Oh, are we getting defensive again? Immature, jumping to conclusions, and gushing of misgivings, and it's supposed to be the holiday season? Come on, BJ, you're better than that. Your defeatist attitude won't help you envision a magnificent game very personal to you. And especially after presenting that solidly uncompromised review of Traitor's Gate II, one would think you'd have the fortitude to believe in and stand up for your vision of what your personal dream game should be. Besides, I was only comparing my experience with Myst/realMyst with yours. Did I ever say or insinuate that your experience with Myst is any less important than mine?

:( And you conveniently neglected:

These are just my initial thoughts. I'm sure I'll have more to say after more thought.

Looking forward to them!

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Oh, and BTW, I publically apologize to BacardiJim for his claim that I cut him down and that am manipulating this thread to make it appear that the only perfect dream game is the one I envisioned, even though I haven't even posted it yet, nor seen his game proposal posted in detail, either.

I'm sorry, BJ.

[Marek]

Saying that realMyst doesn't look as good as the original Myst is a bit of a stretch I might say :devil: :P

Edit: although Curt gave me interesting arguments to reconsider my position on that. :D

[BacardiJim]

In the case of my TG2 review, I was doing exactly that: REVIEWING the game. I didn't pleasantly say, "I want to hear the opinions of everyone else. Don't worry, it's your fantasy." and then turn around and trash the first opinion offered. If debate was what you wanted, then you should have made that clear in your original post. Of course, there are a zillion other forums (and many other threads on this forum) where I could have engaged in that ageless debate if I so desired. In this case, you seemed to be sincerely asking for people's opinions and providing a non-judgemental forum for them to be aired. Then you turned around and did exactly what happens in every other thread of this ilk: attacked the first viewpoint that disagreed with yours.

And when I said that I didn't want to play your little game anymore of "Tell me your opinion so I can tell you how wrong you are" your immediate response is to insult me.

And you want to call me immature?

[BacardiJim]

Apology accepted. :)

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Thank you! Now, I want you to think good and long about that dream game. Remember, Bubba Gus Claus has bottomless pockets and only cares about making you happy. *D

[Starflux]

BD, hon, do you really think I have the self-awareness to know what I really want to see in an AG? :P

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Yes, as well as a solid dossier as a skilled gamer who knows what he feels works and doesn't work in a game. You're not being graded, you're being given the opportunity! :7

[Starflux]

If I can gather the will and time tomorrow, I shall give it a try. Frightened, though, of zestful producers just waiting to snatch away my undoubtedly exquisite ideas.

[PTDC]

I hope this isn't a cunning plan to steal ideas. ;) Oh wait, I just noticed the last post.

[Jackal]

Well, my full answer would be massive, but I've certainly brainstormed an ideal framework before, so I'll outline some of the defining features. That'll be long ENOUGH (just remember... you asked :P)

It's all about CHOICE, baby!! I'd make a role playing adventure game... NO, not one that includes combat, classes, stats, or levels. This is a true adventure that role plays, rather than a plot-heavy RPG. In some ways, it'll smack of Deus Ex, but not entirely so.

The game would feature interweaving narratives depending on player choices, rather than making distinctly linear mini-games for each path chosen (like Indy and FoA did). The key is to make the role playing organic. As much as I like traditional RPG's, they feel just as game-y as adventures. There's nothing like yanking the player out of the experience and throwing a stat screen in front of them (or rolling dice, for that matter) to remind the player it's only a game held together by tired conventions. And RPG's telegraph their point system, too. Kill a monster, earn some points. Finish a quest, gain some experience. Too predictable, and too forced.

My role playing elements would center around obstacles that each "path" would encounter, based on the skills of science, dialogue, inventory and investigation. (Open to other suggestions). I'll illustrate with the age-old "get into a locked building" example. Let's jazz it up by having someone guarding the door who won't let you in. More than just having multiple solutions in general, here is where prior game decisions would take affect. If you'd developed your dialogue skills throughout the game (again, not through "stats", simply by developing the skills naturally with practice), you'd have enhanced dialogue trees that would enable you to outwit/charm/otherwise convince the guard to let you in. At night, though, you could have a mechanical puzzle "guarding" the door (yes, of course day/night cycles). If you'd chosen to focus on tackling all the science-type puzzles throughout, you have a much better chance of solving the puzzle outright. As an inventory specialist, you'd discover more items, enabling you to use or combine equipment that would allow you to break in. If you approached the game as an investigator, you'd of course find "clues" that would enable you to access the building yet another way.

This is all geared to tailoring gameplay to player preference. Like the mechanical puzzles? Well, you'll want to sink your teeth into the available puzzles and ignore the NPC's, knowing that the game will reward you in your chosen course. Rather claw your own eyes out than do another slider puzzle? Well, start chatting up those same (many) NPC's, fully expecting key plot points to become fleshed out to assist you. Found TLJ or the Broken Swords too wordy? Well, pay particular attention to documents for coded messages, etc. Just want to bulldoze through? Then grab every item you can, and figure out how best to utilize them for your own purposes. Behind the scenes, the game is adapting itself according to your choices.

Many of the usual elements of adventure games would be present, but the game would involve a different mindset. Though everything that happens is relevant, it may not be relevant to YOU. It's a living, breathing gameworld, but you can participate in however much you like, or only as much as your skill path dictates.

For all this rambling, it really doesn't do my vision justice (it's more than just a fancy shmancy way of having multiple puzzle solutions), but hopefully it conveys the gist.

As far as interface, style, etc., I wouldn't want to limit myself. They all have advantages and disadvantages, so my preferences aren't overwhelming either way. Stylistically, I'd want variety even within a single game. A balance of contrasts. The gameworld would absolutely HAVE to by dynamic and vibrant. Functionally, I'd probably opt for a third person, 3D direct control game (with drop dead gorgeous graphics, of course) using mouse/keyboard (though I'd research new control methods if Bubba wanted to fund that, too).

I'm also completely flexible about story (including plot, characters, dialogue, etc.). Sci fi, fantasy, real world, doesn't matter. Thriller, comedy, mature themed, whatever. Again, they all have something to offer. The only thing that matters to me is the quality of the writing. Again, though, I'd also insist that no matter what the overall direction, that the game embrace the entire emotional spectrum. Not in an openly manipulative way, but simply through its diversity. I'd want gamers to be paradoxically exhausted and exhilarated, personally invested in the narrative and its outcome.

That's not too much to ask, is it? :eek:

(Yes, there's more, and of course I have specific plot ideas, but someone else's turn now). :D

[DFish]

This is easy. We've all heard of "Myst clones". Well, my ultimate game would rightly be called a "Grim Fandango clone"!

[mycroft]

Err...
I'm one of the stupid newbies Trep mentioned in the first post.
I don't have a clue as to what's going on .
Is this something like Dare to be Digital ? I have a cool idea about my dream adventure game that I'd like to post.I posted a similar thread in the IGDA forums with a thread entitled An Open-Ended Adventure Game Design.But first I want to know what exactly we are talking about ?

[Wormsie]

My dream adventure game has lots of tennis in it.

[Fairygdmther]

Creating my ideal game -
1. Choose a subject from literature - there are inumerable topics out there that would lend themselves to adventure games.
2. Allow movement by choice of the player - ie - keyboard, mouse, gamepad.
3. Allow the player to choose an avatar (or create one) that is appropriate for them, and address them with the appropriate gender terms.

As a first try, I'd like to see a game in the theme of what I'll call - Fairytale Nightmare. In this game, you play the recently divorced parent of 5 year old twins, a boy and a girl. Each chapter would begin with you reading them a bedtime story. And guess who gets the nightmares? Not the kids! You would enter the realm of each fairytale world, and help Little Red Riding Hood avoid the wolf; help Hansel and Gretel kill the witch, etc. You would use for inventory, toys from your kids' playbox, or things around the house, ie, you might unravel that gold lame top you bought for New Year's Eve, for Rumplestiltskin, to fake him out, or you might build a machine from your son's legos to acheive something. In order to end each nightmare of a fairytale, you must use something familiar to help you to help the characters (take the ladder from the garage for Rapunzel). You might need to enlist the help of fairies or other characters to reach your goal.

The theme here is that - as a new single parent, you are afraid for your kids, and want to see that "happily ever after" ending. So you go into each world, via dreams, and make it happen. I think 1st person perspective would be better for this, with perhaps cel-shaded environments for the dream sequences. There needs to be a clear delineation between real world and dream world. Each dream sequence could have a twist or two that you have to solve to assist the fairytale characters. The final FMV could be a scene of the many grateful characters giving you the keys to the fairytale realm, to enjoy with your kids whenever you wished.

I chose fairytales as a theme, because it is something almost everyone grows up with, so the goals are obvious, but not necessarily the ways to acheive them. It needn't be as dark as McGee's Alice, but still somewhat scarier than the normal fairytales. Successive chapters could get more difficult as you progress.

[Tanukitsune]

Larry Laffer Vs Guybrush Treepwood: Monkey Lovin'...
Need I say more? :P
I could buy the rights to Warcraft Adventures and finish it.... :D
I could make the legendary MK I talkie version...

I got it! Dopefish: The Ultimate Underwater Adventure!
Dopefish has been captured and is in a strange land! Help return home and eat Commander Keen!
The interface is simple:
-Swim
-Swim
-Hungry
Dopefish will travel to other games where he will eat, eh... meet characters from several adventure games!

I actually have several "serious" ideas, but they are mere concepts... Empty shells... :frown:

[Intrepid Homoludens]

I chose fairytales as a theme, because it is something almost everyone grows up with, so the goals are obvious, but not necessarily the ways to acheive them.

I would absolutely DIE to play this game, Fairygdmther!! The concept is brilliant, unique, and intriguing enough that I can see many other people beyond adventure gamers wanting to experience this game. I love the basis-in-reality edge, that the parent's fears, whether real or perceived, are incarnated and acted out in his/her nightmares, and the use of symbols of innocence and purity (toys) and domestic familial security (household items) combined with wit to combat the situation. Fantastic idea! Bubba Claus would drool!

It's all about CHOICE, baby!! I'd make a role playing adventure game...

The idea of choice for the player is something most adventure developers fail to envision, if it's even occurred to them at all. It'll have to take something short of a miracle to trigger a revolution: Warren Spector focuses his talents and vision on creating such an adventure game, or Peter Molyneaux deciding to make a classic adventure but using advanced A.I. that would have startling effects on how the puzzles and story are experienced. In a way Spector and Harvey Smith have already done that with Deus Ex: Invisible War, but we're talking true bona fide adventure here, without the violence, looting, stats management and standard RPG bullshit. Personally I embrace being able to 'discover' various possible solutions to a puzzle, but of course that depends on the nature of the puzzle itself.

One emphatic edge your game would have over all the others would be its very high replayability value, something almost foreign to many adventure gamers, no matter how much they claim to love replaying old games. Your game would perpetuate that sense of discovery and resourcefulness at each play. However, the only limitation I can foresee is the actual story itself. It seems, especially for the adventure genre, the stronger and more upfront the story, the more linear the game is forced to become, no matter how much choice you give the player in the gameplay and puzzling department. Multiple, convergent stories could be done here, where there are no discernable boundaries between one tale and another. You could easily abandon following the initial story and instead delve into the second story you just happened to stumble on. One door opens, the other closes. But it sounds like an awesome adventure game concept, and I would probably lose myself in your game for an entire weekend. Hell, I vanished into Deus Ex for 12 hours straight during one session.

[Ninth]

I chose fairytales as a theme, because it is something almost everyone grows up with, so the goals are obvious, but not necessarily the ways to acheive them. It needn't be as dark as McGee's Alice, but still somewhat scarier than the normal fairytales. Successive chapters could get more difficult as you progress.

Your idea certainly is seductive, but:

- A lot of game, namely the King Quest and some others, have already used a lot of fairy tales.
- Fairy tales vary a lot from one country to another, which make some puzzles quite obscure when exported.
I played Tierra KQ1 recently and since I have never heard of Rumplestillskin or whatever his name is, I was stupidly stuck when he asked me what his name was.

[Ninth]

I could make the legendary MK I talkie version...


You mean MI 1? That would be great.
And I wonder if we're thinking about the same Dopefish... Green pish, stupid looking, which keeps eating bloody Keen in the well level of Keen 4?

[Intrepid Homoludens]

http://www.georgianindex.net/gent/watchm.jpg
How far would you go for the love of your brother?
How deep would you descend to learn the truth?
Would you be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice?

Here's my idea for a dream game. First I'll enlighten the techies here:

Technology: Real time 3D. Same engine used for Silent Hill 3 (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/adventure/silenthill3/screens.html?page=81) (and the same artists) but optimized for PC. Havok physics (puzzles) and dynamic lighting and shadows (puzzles, atmosphere).

Interface: 3rd person perspective, over-the-shoulder camera. Option to 'freelook', that is the player can pan the camera around the character to better gauge and admire the environment. Option to look in 1st person. By default the mouse controls camera direction and gameworld interaction, keyboard controls movement (WASD). Direct control. Character movements and actions are context sensitive. This means, for example, that when your character approaches a ledge he will automatically climb it. If he comes to a door, left-click the mouse and he opens it. Very simple.

Gameplay: Classic adventuring but with emphasis on innovative puzzle design, many with multiple solutions. Exploration strongly encouraged, it pays to look around every single corner for clues or even just things that help give more dimension to the story and your experience.

Randomization of over 40 different set puzzles depending on player's exploratory behaviour, with the player experiencing only about 25 in one playthrough of the game. Going to certain areas will trigger certain puzzles while closing off others, thus revealing or concealing various dimensions of the story and plot. You'll probably discover something new about the characters or story on your second playthrough.

Puzzles will mostly be environmental, NPC dialogue, research, and some inventory, but very unique in design, many based on various theories in psychology, Rorschash (http://w1.303.telia.com/~u30302947/Rorschach.jpg), optical illusions (http://psycharts.com/clipart/9.gif), Escher (http://psycharts.com/clipart/wff.jpg), the ideas of Carl Jung (http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/jung.html), symbolisms, etc. - contingent on the theme of my story.

Graphics / Atmosphere: Very realistic and sumptuous, like Silent Hill 3 (http://www.gamesdomain.com/playstation2/reviews/silenthill_03.html), but more colourful, dynamic, and less somber (and no violence and action). Story relies very heavily on evoking strong emotional and psychological responses from the player, and for the purpose of my story, one way of doing this is to render a world that looks and feels as familiar and realistic as possible, then turning that world upside down and inside out on the player (see Story below).

Themes: Dissipated relationships, memories, repressed guilt, misgivings, unresolved questions, resentment, anger, psychological scars, denial, brevity, discovery, introspection, acceptance, sacrifice, confirmation, hope. Buried associations, the theories of Carl Jung (http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/jung.html), the ideas of Otto Rank (http://www.ottorank.com/), dream symbolisms, free association.

I will give you guys the story in my next post soon.

[Henke]

Wow, some of you have some really cool ideas. :D

Since I'm doing an adventure game myself right now it will be sort of my dream game. Only it will be ALOT smaller and smell more low budget since I'm making it completely on my own and I can't really work with it fulltime (and I have an extremely short timeframe).

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Story for my game: OKAY, THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT TO READ! Sorry to make you go through the technicalities above, but I'd rather you read about my story for this game with an understanding of how it would look and function on your PC so you can visualize it better.

David, a young, successful, and upwardly mobile associate at a communications firm in New York, unexpectedly receives a call from his mother back in his home town of Denton, Montana. She had been trying to reach him for a week. His younger brother, Chris, from whom he had been estranged for over ten years, had a car accident off a steep mountainous pass. Chris barely survived, but is now in a coma and in critical condition with no guarantee that he'll live through his injuries or even wake up, would David please come over as soon as possible. Despite pressing deadlines, a client presentation the next week, and an important gala event to attend, David immediately flies to Denton.

David and Chris hadn't spoken to each other since that huge incident during David's college days. But when they were kids they were each others' best friends in the entire world, inseparable. Chris idolized his older brother and wanted to be just like him - bold, ambitious, strong, and talented. But as they grew older David's plans for himself began to take over and he paid less and less attention to Chris, eventually tapering off their intimate camaraderie. Chris, though still admiring of his brother, was deeply hurt by this while at the same time painfully trying to establish his own identity. His grades began slipping in school, he became moody and rebellious, often fighting with his parents, and even got arrested a couple of times. Meanwhile David was building a foundation of credits at the community college to prepare himself for university on the east coast, and wanted nothing more to do with Chris. And then the incident happened that finally severed them.

After visiting the comatose Chris in the hospital and consoling his weeping mother, David decides to go for a walk in downtown Denton to sort out his conflicting feelings about all this. He adventitiously ends up in a strange exotic antiques shop specializing in timepieces and mechanical toys and gadgets. The old man who runs the shop says that he had been expecting David for a long time, would he be interested in a particular timepiece. Just to indulge the old man David looks at the piece - an extremely ornate, exotic looking gold pocket watch, a few hundred years old, probably German in origin but Venetian and oriental by design. He'd never seen anything quite like it, and immediately is captivated by it. But then the old man shows him an old illuminated parchment and book that accompany the watch, adding that this watch is shrouded in mystery and possibly danger: legend has it that the owner can use it to enter and explore the minds of another person within a limited time frame and discover and explore that person's most intimate thoughts, memories, and true emotions. David buys the watch, more out of amusement than genuine interest in its history.

Back in his old room at his mother's house, he decides to read a little bit about the watch while his mother prepared dinner. According to its history as chronicled in the dusty old book, it had passed hands many times and was the cause of many violent deaths, not in and of itself, but because those less than noble sought it for their own selfish gain and desire for power. There were also accounts of past owners who had saved their loved one's lives using the powers of the timepiece. Reading further, David's accumulating knowledge of this mysterious device begins mingling with thoughts of Chris, of what his kid brother had been doing all these years, what he'd been through, how he had been coping.

The old man at the antique shop had made it a point to say that the watch worked normally, but that he had no idea how to trigger its true power. Apparently the clues were hidden in the book and parchment. David, a passionate cryptogram buff since childhood, is instantly intrigued and begins scouring through the documents. After over a dozen failed attempts he nearly drops the thing on the floor - it shook in his hands! On examination, he sees that the hands on the face have begun to move backwards, and a strange faint orange glow came from within. He had triggered it. Again his thoughts wafted to Chris. Will it really work? It can't, it's just some hokey gadget the old man probably contrived. From the kitchen he could hear his mother weeping. He decided to go visit Chris again at the hospital after dinner.

David uses the timepiece to enter Chris' mind and explore his brother's experiences and feelings to find out what he had been going through since he and David stopped speaking to each other years ago, and most importantly to discover what actually happened from Chris' point of view. But therein lies the danger: Chris' subconscious, his ego, senses his brother's presence and reacts defensively and with sheer hostility. Chris may be in a coma, but his vast and volatile mind is very much active and begins a vehement attempt to thwart David from learning the truth about him while at the same time punishing him. Deep, deep, deep in the abysses of his subconscious Chris immediately begins designing and constructing increasingly cruel riddles, enigmas, and environmental traps using his childhood memories, past objects of love and hate, significant places filled with meaning, and even the memories of people he and David knew.

Everything is utilized by Chris as weapons, especially the memories of David's waning fraternity and friendship, and his ultimate abandonment of his adoring kid brother. It's these psychologically charged puzzles that David must solve to inch closer to the core of Chris and discover his truth. And thus the next danger: the closer David gets, the more painful and increasingly unbearable it becomes for him to handle, all these things reflecting on him and weighing on him and forcing him to ask himself how truly valid his selfish choices in the past were.

The climax involves...

...a decision to make the ultimate sacrifice. The player is given a choice.

[BacardiJim]

Sanitarium meets I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream. (Or Obsidian, take your pick.)

Instead of being trapped in his own mind to deal with childhood traumas (Max in Sanitarium) David is trapped in someone else's mind which can alter or recreate the environment.(IHNMAIMS/Obsidian)

[Ninth]

[COLOR=DarkOrange][B]Story for my game:

There something I'm not sure I have understood right:
Where would the actual game take place? Would the player visit places that are inside Chris' mind, like his home, only with those puzzles his subconsience is making?

Anyway, it sound really nice.
It make me think of darkseed, for some reason...

EDIT: Yes, it made me think of I Have No Mouth And I must Scream, too.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

It would take place deep inside Chris's mind. Once David does the requisite stuff, he is psychically transported into Chris's mind (while his body remains in the physical world). Anything then is possible. The effect is like living a lucid dream.

[Ninth]

Ok, so : What exactly is living in a lucid dream for you? I mean, what kind of places do you envision in Chris's mind? One or two examples would probably satisfy me enough so that I'll stop asking questons... ;)

[Intrepid Homoludens]

*sigh* Don't you ever read and then digest it? It was explained in my two posts! Where's your imagination? Here, I'll hold your hand but for only a second:

http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick/images/magritte.jpg

...Story relies very heavily on evoking strong emotional and psychological responses from the player, and for the purpose of my story, one way of doing this is to render a world that looks and feels as familiar and realistic as possible, then turning that world upside down and inside out on the player....

...Chris' subconscious, his ego, senses his brother's presence and reacts defensively and with sheer hostility. Chris may be in a coma, but his vast and volatile mind is very much active and begins a vehement attempt to thwart David from learning the truth about him while at the same time punishing him. Deep, deep, deep in the abysses of his subconscious Chris immediately begins designing and constructing increasingly cruel riddles, enigmas, and environmental traps using his childhood memories, past objects of love and hate, significant places filled with meaning, and even the memories of people he and David knew.

...Everything is utilized by Chris as weapons, especially the memories of David's waning fraternity and friendship, and his ultimate abandonment of his adoring kid brother.

In other words, you are in Chris' universe of memories and state of mind. His emotions are manifested in often surprisingly different ways. Everything seems normal, but as you begin exploring weird things happen - the small room you're in begins to grow in size until you feel like a mouse, giant objects float in midair and slowly rotate, old abandoned toys are strewn about, everything is reminding you of your past with Chris but at the same time it's all warped and surreal. Think of the landscapes of Salvador Dalí (http://www.zenzibar.com/images/dalitime.jpg) or Yves Tanguy (http://fusionanomaly.net/yvestanguyindefinitedivisibility.jpg). Think of the off kilter interior spaces and incongruous situations of Rene Magritte (http://dekart.f.bg.ac.yu/~smijusko/vertigo/mag01.jpg), or of the oppressive melancholy of Giorgio de Chirico's arcades (http://graphics.lcs.mit.edu/~fredo/ArtAndScienceOfDepiction/chirico.jpg).

I actually had this one cool idea for a puzzle involving reconstructing Chris's likeness using objects scattered about the space. Here, look at this Dalí picture (http://www.museummasters.com/art/dali/MAEWES_1lrg.jpg) to get an idea what I mean. In order to appease Chris just enough for him to let you pass you have to arrange the objects so that from a certain angle it looks like him, thus appealing to his ego.

[Jayel]

I want a 2D game with Gabriel Knight (the first one) type of graphics where the main character can see into the future, and then one day he sees something horrible happen to him and tries to change that.

Hmm.. sounds good. I think I'll make it myself!!! Look forward to its release sometime around 2005!!!11

[Jackal]

Very intriguing, Trep. Just to add a wrinkle, have you given some thought to how you would handle the conflicting desires of Chris' own subconscious? The "defensiveness and sheer hostility" are borne out of pain and rejection, of course, but those obscure the fact that his deepest longings are still for love and acceptance from David. Like most wounded people, he's subconsciously sabotaging that which he most wants, no?

The "dream" state is one that appeals to me, also, as there is simply NO limit to the creative possibilities.

But geez, man, add a spoiler tag to the end of of your own design docs, wouldja? ;)

[Intrepid Homoludens]

....have you given some thought to how you would handle the conflicting desires of Chris' own subconscious? The "defensiveness and sheer hostility" are borne out of pain and rejection, of course, but those obscure the fact that his deepest longings are still for love and acceptance from David. Like most wounded people, he's subconsciously sabotaging that which he most wants, no?

Singer, a lot of my personal writings - journal, short fiction - and articles and books I read deal with this stuff. Heh, you think I'm not thorough enough to have considered Chris' own dilemna? You should read my fiction. Link's in my sig.

[Jackal]

Glad to hear it!! :) It's one of my areas of focus, also. Actually, I'd have been surprised if you HADN'T thought it through. Just brought it up as you hadn't mentioned it. Fertile ground for a great game. Get writing. (And I'll be sure to check out your fiction soon).

[Ninth]

*sigh* Don't you ever read and then digest it? It was explained in my two posts!


Your english is rather elaborate and your posts are rather long, which doesn't make the task really easy for someone who learned english at high school.
Besides, I was asking for something specific (you know that, because you answered me below :sad: ).


Where's your imagination?


It has been better, but we're talking about you here. I'm trying to visualize your game, not to make my own based on your ideas.


Here, I'll hold your hand but for only a second:


Thanks daddy.
But since it's your imagination, it's only natural that you should guide me when I wish to visit, it, is it not?

So it sound really good.
Some game already featured this kind of "inside the mind" stuff, though, so your game would have to be careful not to trigger one of those déjà-vu mechanisms. But seeing how you like to emphasize your personality, I'm pretty sure a game that's a product of your mind would be original enough.

[Bard09]

Here, look at this Dalí picture to get an idea what I mean.

I love Dali and Magritte, Intrepid. Surrealism is incredible. Would you happen to know the title of the Dali painting you posted? The face one. I keep a collection of surrealist paintings I like and prefer to title them :)

As for my idea, well... here's a clipping from a random forum I was involved with a few years back.

<<There are a lot of posts about the relatively minor details people would like to see in a future version of the game. ie. walls, or bigger maps, I was just wondering if anyone has any grander ideas for how this genre could move forward. From my first post you'll understand I've thought of nothing else for the past 5 years, so here are a couple of my musings for you to comment on
1. My theory, for the perfect Fantasy Simulation:

You are no different to anybody else living in the world.

Consider building a house:
You, as a person could perform any physical task that anyone else could. You can pick up an axe and chop down trees, or you could saw lumber into planks, or you could design the plans for a small house, or you could forge nails and a hammer at a blacksmith, or you could build a small house if provided with all these items.
If you did all of these things yourself then obviously it would take a long time to finish the house. Also you could not be an expert in every field so the final house might not be as good as it could be.

To run a good construction business you need to build the house quicker. You need to persuade others to help do at least some of the tasks: friends might agree to help just because they see you need help, someone might agree to help because you saved their life 30 years ago. A slave would help to avoid being killed. Most of the time however it will come down to money, you pay the blacksmith to provide nails, and the lumbermill to provide planks, and an architect to design it, and the builders to knock it all together. To make sure you got a good house you would try to buy the best wood, and hire the best laborors etc.

As a village elder, organising all this would take more time than you could afford, so you would just hire one person/firm you trusted to take care of all the details. Just telling them how many houses to build, and where you wanted them.

As a Baron trying to cope with an expected influx of elven refugees you would percieve the need for additional housing and dispatch couriers to let village elders and town councillors in your fief know of the problem, making an assurance that taxes would be reduced next year for those settlements that helped solve your problem.

As a monarch you are the cause of the above refugees ... you disbanded the army defending the elven homelands because you couldn't afford to defend both the dwarves and the elves. (And put simply, you like dwarves better.)

The point being that as a player you could (eventually) choose to do any of these things. Starting off as a peasant with no one loyal to you and no money, everything you do is off your own back. You would slowly accumulate two major resources, money and influence.

You can become a king, a general, a demonic overlord, a high priestess. You just need to persuade everyone else in the realm you are the right man for the job.

So thats it. Thats all I want.
A game where you can do absolutely anything, and be absolutely anything. Not much to ask for is it?>>


This guy's quote is what I'd like to see in my perfect game. Ultimate flexibility and freedom. An entire, malleable world. Flexible and dynamic. The kind of thing you read about in pulp comic series (Has anyone here read the comic book Harsh Realm? It's about virtual worlds).

Now if I'd want to make my perfect ADVENTURE game... it would be something entirely different. It'd be heavily story-focused, 3D-into-2D for artistic style, and have some sort of original premise. I don't know. I tend to like the artistic fortitude of comic books, but it has already kind of been done in Toonstruck. I was thinking a Cool World/Who Framed Roger Rabbit?/Pleasantville visual style, modelled after perhaps different decades of fiction. You could have chapter in film noir, another chapter in the comic book Silver Age, where you can crawl out of a panel. Maybe a venture into a romantic novel?

I like the idea of having two protagonists who hate each other. I believe that is narratively possible. Perhaps one obsessive-junkie who appreciates the eras and another who absolutely rejects it. To play with gender roles you could always make the "nerd" a girl. It has its possibilites. And I could make them fall in love... aww...

Since I like items, it would be item-focused as far as gameplay is concerned. Per the adventure standard, items could be manipulated and combined. However, I would only implement such a solution *realistically*. I'd like to see bulges in characters' pants (no, not in that way...) or have my characters physicall carry around the gigantic ladder they want to move.

Those are some of my ideas. I'd love to make an adventure game someday. Then again, I just decided not to major in CS and head for a major in Drama/English. Maybe I'll be writing them, instead ;)

[ragnar]

Story for my game: OKAY, THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT TO READ! Sorry to make you go through the technicalities above, but I'd rather you read about my story for this game with an understanding of how it would look and function on your PC so you can visualize it better.

David, a young, successful, and upwardly mobile associate at a communications firm in New York, [snip]

This game sounds wonderful. When is it finished?

[Fairygdmther]

Intrepid, thank you for the kind words on my thoughts for a game. I think that some of our scariest moments, whether dream or reality, are those where the things that are most familiar to us change in some way unexpectedly. We come to know things and their usual behavior, or even people and their usual behavior, as in your story with the brothers, and mine with the fairy tales, but when circumstances change, we find ourselves doubting our whole world, and wondering if we really know anything or anyone. Fears we thought we had conquered a long time ago surface to confront us once again. This makes wonderful fodder for fiction, and for adventure games as well. I would like to see both our ideas be made into adventure games. While both have some facets that have been touched on in other games, our ideas are unique, in our presentations. I, too, would love to play your game.

[Intrepid Homoludens]

Fairygdmther, yeah, I'm in complete agreement with you there. As we're on the subject, read this post I made, from an excerpt from another thread:

" Emphatically, as a medium in general and a workable art form games are as every bit as legitimate as film, books, photography, painting, audio, live performance, and television in presenting ideas and issues while still preserving its value as entertainment. But as an interactive medium it has that unique advantage of involving the player in ways the other media can never achieve. The technology makes it all possible. The whole damn thing is SOOOO ripe with possibilities!! And yet part of the stigma comes from us gamers ourselves who dismissively say "Hey, what's the big deal? It's just a game, it's supposed to be fun!", or "Why should it be deep, it's just a game." These ejaculations from such gamers lack intelligence and a receptiveness to explore beyond the infantile boundaries of games as expressive entertainment media. To these lamers I answer "Pasolini's Salú (which dealt with the final days of Fascist rule in WWII Italy) was just a movie, then?", or "Why should Sophia Coppola's Lost In Translation deal with issues of displacement and loneliness, it's just a movie, it's supposed to be entertaining", or "Why should Gustave Flaubert's novel Madame Bovary have to be about desire, sexual repression, and fatal disillusions, it's supposed to be entertaining."

And of course, "Why should Syberia explore the themes of death, loss, and spiritual rebirth? It's just a game!" http://mysmilies.creativesell.net/contrib/blackeye/hihi.gif "

Here's the thread (http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=934), if you're interested.

[Fairygdmther]

I've not only read the whole thread, I've read the article as well, twice, actually. It is refreshing to see an intelligent approach to gaming.

Developers need to see that gaming isn't just for 14 year olds, and begin to expand their repertoire. There are many who first used the PC for work, who "cut their teeth" on the online games, many of which are quite good, but are only for short bursts of time (I mean things like Collapse, Big Money, Word Whomp, etc.). Many are now looking for games with more substance. Not only do developers need to open their minds to the potential audience, they need to advertise to them, and then get the games where these people shop. Walmart is smart to be selling the old games redone, and they are selling them in large quantities. The market is there, and is ripe for more and better adv games, especially, but also for RPG's, and MMORPG's.

There is a huge reading public for Mystery and Horror books, why aren't these games sold in Walden Books, right beside the books of the same genre? The console game makers are starting to respond to this expansion of the market, but they are fighting a tough battle, as so many adults see consoles as for kids. But they are smart, too, and put them out for rent @ Blockbuster, and can catch the ones looking for movies, while they are there. PC and Video games are really in their infancy, just toddling through, with not much direction, yet, intellectually, nor in their market sense. They have a long way to go to be in the same realm as TV or Movies.

[Bard09]

Let me throw my name in and say I agree as well with the above two comments. Games, both on console and PC, have a history of screaming like a stuck pig "Wah! Look at us! We're not a medium for geeks and loners! We're a medium for everybody! Look at the statistics! The STATISTICS!" meanwhile rehashing a lot of our imbecile traditions that have existed for over 15 years.

I think it is going to be extraordinarily difficult for games to escape the stigma as an escapist medium (ha!). Intrepid and Fairygdmother, as I was reading your posts, I was considering the human effects of death in computer games. Not necessarily from a Doom-created-Columbine perspective, though. I was thinking more along the lines of that I haven't seen many games outside of a few that make death a significant, emotional event.

This is really something to consider in my opinion. People say they play games to escape. This is assumably why we have titled such as Half-Life or Grand Theft Auto, to vicariously kill or steal without having to do it in real life. Regardless that most of us probably do not *want* to kill or steal in real life, these titles treat the events in a mannner contrary to modern behavior. When someone dies in your life, be it due to your own hand (police) or a deceased relative, you feel something. Pain. Guilt. Perhaps anxiety. It is a very emotional event, something that games have yet to emphasize.

A huge problem with putting something as legitimately emotional as death into your computer game is that, again, a lot of people play games to escape. More of the general public goes to see commercial blockbuster movies instead of indie art-house films, for example. There is a similar distinction with gaming. Publishers know that a garish interpretation of death is more visceral and entertaining than an emotional interpretation. It's why we see movies like Bad Boys II more than movies like American Beauty.

I really don't see games escaping this for a long time. After all, not many people outside of adventure gamers think to themselves, "Boy, I wish I could play a deep and moving story that made me rethink the nature of life and death." No. They think, "Boy, I wish I could kill me some Nazis."

I just started a thread on this because I'm curious:
http://www.adventuregamers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22300#post22300

[Fairygdmther]

While I think that in games, as well as movies and books, there is both an age and gender bias, the escapism you mention is applicable to all. women are more apt to prefer a "Love, Actually" kind of flick over a "Fight Club", no surprises there, but in PC and video games, the differences are less prevalent, in my experience. Young women are as apt to go for FPS, as ADV, although more apt to go for RPG, or MMORPG, and almost never for RTS games. Young men, who traditionally have more gaming experience than any other demographic, are spread over the spectrum. Women over 30 are more apt to be adv gamers. Men over 30, unless avid readers, don't usually prefer ADV games. BTW this is totally my experience, and my opinions, no statistical evidence gathered. Why am I bringing this up anyway?

Well we have to look at just who is gaming today. G4TV often mentions a statistic of 43% of women play PC games. And this came from statistics of 2 yrs ago. When you think about all the little old ladies in nursing homes who don't even have access to computers, that means probably 70% of women 21 to 65 are playing computer games. After the age of about 22, women outnumber men. This is a huge figure of women who play games, and the computer industry has no idea what they like. Since it was a predominantly male area originally, male influence has dominated the preferences. G4TV admits they aim their shows at the 14-34 year old male.

When you make the assumptions that you did about what movies we like to see, or what we like in a game, it tells me you fit the 14-34 yr old male profile. Movie goers tend to be young, since older viewers tend to rent them. We all have our prejudices, likes and dislikes. What we need is some real demographic studies done in this burgeoning arena. Maybe there are many people who would like to see "real life" issues in a PC or video game. I don't know, but neither does anyone else out there, because no one has asked the right questions yet.

[Ninth]

I don't know, but neither does anyone else out there, because no one has asked the right questions yet.

How do you know that? :P

[Fairygdmther]

Well, I don't know it for certain, but I read the game magazines, watch G4TV, and read, and post in 5 game forums. If there was a massive survey done, don't you think someone would have mentioned it? There would be news about it even on the regular media. Games, PC and video are big business now, and some news is in the media almost daily, sometomes wrong or misunderstood stuff, but often correct things as well. The games industry in 2001 brought in more money in the US than movies. That makes it news to report on. We are at a crossroads in the gaming industry. It needs to either develop in quality, quantity, and diversity, or the mediocrity will swallow it up. The Madison Ave admen need to get off their butts, and do what they do best: survey us, create statistics based on age, sex, and choices of consoles vs PC, and sell us what we want. Even Wall St is saying technology is on the way to a big boom - guess where it is going to come from?

[Bastich]

I think part of what is missing from adventure games is apparent in your original post for this topic. Why did you simply have the choice of cartoony or realistic for graphics/atmosphere? I'm not saying you meant that it should just be those two, but subconsciously you narrowed it to that.

The one thing that I would like to see is a game that doesn't limit itself to either of those two. I want neither a cartoon nor realism. I want to see some of the artistic techniques that are prevalent in other visual media to come to the table.

Regardless of 2D or 3D, for the most part, everything is either a cartoon or a failed attempt at realism. Why not break the mold and have the character enter into a world drawn and animated in watercolor? Or to step into a children's coloring book and wander a world drawn in crayons? Or stepping into a painting where you can see each stroke of the brush on the screen? What about an imitation of Japanese Bunraku puppetry? Or what about a combination of film, stop-motion, claymation, and puppetry like the work of Jan Svankmajer. Ultimately, a computer is just a simulator of real world art tools, so with the exception of technology limits which are getting less and less, everything that can can be drawn, painted, sculpted, etc., in the real world can be done there as well, but with the exception of the Neverhood, and the cool looking Dark Eye currently reviewed on the home page, these ideas are largely ignored. There is so much potential for other styles of drawing and animating out there. What I would want for Christmas is just to see something along the lines I have described above. A completely different visual style than the utterly exhausted ones I have largely dealt with for the past 20+ years.

[Ninth]

Well, I don't know it for certain, but I read the game magazines, watch G4TV, and read, and post in 5 game forums. If there was a massive survey done, don't you think someone would have mentioned it? There would be news about it even on the regular media. Games, PC and video are big business now, and some news is in the media almost daily, sometomes wrong or misunderstood stuff, but often correct things as well. The games industry in 2001 brought in more money in the US than movies. That makes it news to report on. We are at a crossroads in the gaming industry. It needs to either develop in quality, quantity, and diversity, or the mediocrity will swallow it up. The Madison Ave admen need to get off their butts, and do what they do best: survey us, create statistics based on age, sex, and choices of consoles vs PC, and sell us what we want. Even Wall St is saying technology is on the way to a big boom - guess where it is going to come from?

BacardiJim mentioned something about this kind of survey, which showed that retired woman are the main buyers of adventure games...
The trouble is, I'm pretty sure retired woman son't expect the same thing in a game as I do. So a survey would do harm do my kind of game or theirs.

IMO, developpers have to think beyond surveys and markets, and try to gather a bit of courage sometimes. I give credit to Revolution for doing just that, with BS3, even though the game didn't convince me all that much. Giving people what they want is not a good way to do something great. You have to aim for greatness in itself, and then it will sell. A lot. Myst did that. Doom did that (I hate this game, but in its genre it was a masterpiece).

To get back to the topic at hand, my dream adventure game has already been created, a few times, by the guys at LucasArts and Legend. Now my dream is that one day I'll get to see games as good as those.

[Fairygdmther]

You make a good point - a really good game should transcend age, and gender differences. That is true, and it will, within genres. My point, which I guess I didn't make clear, is that the older woman, (and I don't believe BJ said "retired", I believe he said something about 30-35 yr old, IIRC) is not going to like the same games as a 22 yr old guy (few of whom like adv games, most prefer FPS, RTS, sports [esp extreme sports], auto racing, etc.). That's the gist of what i meant - the genre split can be determined by statistics. Within a genre, I couldn't agree more with you.

[Ninth]

You make a good point - a really good game should transcend age, and gender differences. That is true, and it will, within genres. My point, which I guess I didn't make clear, is that the older woman, (and I don't believe BJ said "retired", I believe he said something about 30-35 yr old, IIRC) is not going to like the same games as a 22 yr old guy (few of whom like adv games, most prefer FPS, RTS, sports [esp extreme sports], auto racing, etc.). That's the gist of what i meant - the genre split can be determined by statistics. Within a genre, I couldn't agree more with you.

Maybe you're right, but then again look at the people on this site. A lot of them (like me :) ) are pretty young.
If a survey showed that in order to sell more games you have to make them all fit to please older woman (and BJ did say retired in the other thread about how do you like your adventure games...), we'll be screwed (Speaking of cussing : I wish I could play Orion Conspiracy, the hilarious Just Adventure's review was just too intriguing). Oh well... :frown:

EDIT: Rereading what you said about me making a really good point saying that good games should transcend age and gender, I feel stupid.
I guess I'm just doing the old typing-before-thinking stuff. I promise I won't do it again. Until tomorrow.

So let's rewind : I don't really get your point, mostly because of my limitation in english. What exactly is the genre split that can be determined by statistics?

[Ninth]

women are more apt to prefer a "Love, Actually" kind of flick over a "Fight Club", no surprises there

Yeah, that's why those movies are no good, really. Because they're giving a given audience what it wants. I'm sick and tired of not being surprised when I go to movies. That's why I don't see many Hollywood movies.
The same goes for adventure games. There used to be a personal touch in adventure games of old. Now it's a marketing touch. Baaaah. I'm just depressing myself on purpose. ;(
And there are some hopes, really. Sometimes a game shows flickers of genius. The Nomad Soul did. BS3 almost (I typed always... :rolleyes: ) did.
And maybe, for the time being, I can find the personal and magic touch that I used to find in Lucas' games in amateurs' or fans' games. 8-)

[Fairygdmther]

Ninth - Here's what I mean - not in any order

Young men:
FPS, RTS, auto racing, extreme sports, action, platform games

Young women:
RPG, MMORPG, quick online games, adventure games, FPS, action

Men over 30:
War games, RTS, auto racing, RPG, MMORPG, FPS, adventure games

Women over 30:
quick online games, adventure games, RPG

This, again, is merely my own observation, just a quick look at who plays what genre by age and sex. And of course there will be exceptions in every group. I'm in the over 30 women's group, and have played FPS (Halo, Max Payne), platform, GTA III, Tony Hawk 2X. But my preference is for adventure games. But I'd be very surprised if a valid statistical survey didn't agree with my observations.

[BacardiJim]

In the current thread I used the word "retired" specifically because I was responding to Curt, who was saying that "retirees" were a "huge untapped" market for adventure games. Thus I used the same word when explaining that not only is that market well-tapped (here in the US) but is the PRIMARY market for adventure games.

In the original editorial I generally spoke about women over 40. (I later said that 35 was probably more accurate.) Several surveys were cited that supported this. (All of them are suspect because of their methodology and because no PC game sales reports include online sales, which make up a HUGE chunk of total adventure game sales, but they bore me out regardless.)

Rather than depending solely on numbers to make my case, I also mentioned that I managed a retail outlet that sold computer games for two years, that I spent two years writing for (and thus getting to know the regular members of) an online mystery adventure game, I founded one IRC adventure gaming channel and was a regular in another one for years, I have played several MMORPG's, and I am a regular member of 4-5 different web forums. I think this combination has managed to put me in a good position to see who it is who is playing and purchasing adventure games.

I'm not trying to make any point here, other than that I knew what I was talking about when I made my original statements, and to clarify my use of the word "retired."

[James]

well i got Deus Ex: Invisible War in the post, and have Broken Sword: The Sleeping Dragon since release, so i think im set.

[Henke]

Ninth - Here's what I mean - not in any order

Young men:
FPS, RTS, auto racing, extreme sports, action, platform games

Young women:
RPG, MMORPG, quick online games, adventure games, FPS, action

Men over 30:
War games, RTS, auto racing, RPG, MMORPG, FPS, adventure games

Women over 30:
quick online games, adventure games, RPG



I'm a woman (with a little manhood hidden deep inside). Cool. 8-)

[ragnar]

Ninth - Here's what I mean - not in any order

Young men:
FPS, RTS, auto racing, extreme sports, action, platform games

Young women:
RPG, MMORPG, quick online games, adventure games, FPS, action

Men over 30:
War games, RTS, auto racing, RPG, MMORPG, FPS, adventure games

Women over 30:
quick online games, adventure games, RPG

This, again, is merely my own observation, just a quick look at who plays what genre by age and sex. And of course there will be exceptions in every group. I'm in the over 30 women's group, and have played FPS (Halo, Max Payne), platform, GTA III, Tony Hawk 2X. But my preference is for adventure games. But I'd be very surprised if a valid statistical survey didn't agree with my observations.

Ok, if this is anything to go by I'm definitely not a young man (despite my age and sex).

And I wonder why there is a need at all to define what types of game different groups of people? And why is sex and age so important? Why not define what types of games fat people play in difference to thin people, or hairy versus bald people, etc.?

[SamandMax]

My dream game would be like a combination of Silent Hill, Grand Theft Auto, Grim Fandango, and Ms. Pac-Man. Plus, the Tetris theme would continually play in the background.

Technology - 4D

Interface - You're actually in the game with virtual reality!

Gameplay/Puzzles - You explore the world by riding Ms. Pac-Man. Most puzzles require bizarre logic, like opening a door with a faucet and a sandwich.

Graphics/Atmosphere - Cel-Shaded, yet realistic and cartoony at the same time. And lots of neon.

Story/Theme - Mr. Pac-Man has been murdered by a zombie with a speech impediment, and you and Ms. Pac-Man team up to take down a gang of voodoo pop singers who have become celebrities with the hit song "Voodoo Doll of Love". And there's something with monkey cops in there, you always need them in a story.

[Fairygdmther]

The reason for defining age and gender issues in a nutshell, is that the needs of many are not being met. If you are a young male, you may not see this, but if you are in any other group, you would understand that you are virtually invisible to the game developers. For instance - name even one of the PC or video games magazines whose focus is on other than the 14-24 year old male. What age and sex do both the gaming channels focus on? Can you think of one commercial for a video or PC game that shows a woman playing it - a woman aged 35? NOT a retired woman, a young-middle aged woman. When you can answer these questions with positive responses, then I'll back off, and I'll feel as if I'm represented in the consideration of the game developers.

Okay, I'm off my soapbox! ;)

[Ninth]

This is a men's world...

I'm a older woman too, though. Beats me. I'll swear I was a young man last time I checked... :confused:

[Fairygdmther]

Qu'es ce que c'est? Je ne comprends pas. Il faut que vous faites un choix - un homme ou une femme, n'est-ce pas? Peut-etre vous avez une " identity crisis"? Ah, le pauvre! Pardonnez ma francais, s'il vous plait. Il y a quelques annes depuis les etudes.

[ragnar]

The reason for defining age and gender issues in a nutshell, is that the needs of many are not being met. If you are a young male, you may not see this, but if you are in any other group, you would understand that you are virtually invisible to the game developers.
I am a young male, but that doesn't make me think that the gaming market is any better. Also remember that it was young males that played adventure games not so long ago. I refuse to accept that ones taste is defined by what age and sex one is in. I very much think that the variations within those groups are much larger than between the groups.
For instance - name even one of the PC or video games magazines whose focus is on other than the 14-24 year old male. What age and sex do both the gaming channels focus on? Can you think of one commercial for a video or PC game that shows a woman playing it - a woman aged 35? NOT a retired woman, a young-middle aged woman. When you can answer these questions with positive responses, then I'll back off, and I'll feel as if I'm represented in the consideration of the game developers.

Okay, I'm off my soapbox! ;)

I just think it is the totally wrong end to look at things. You shouldn't think as much about what sex and gender it is geared towards, but rather what types of games. If there is no gaming magazine geared towards games you like, why not start your own? If you show to the gaming companies that there are lots of people (notice that I don't include age and sex here) with similar tastes there will be games you like.

Another thing is that game designer most often make games _they_ like. The result of game designers making games that they think someone else might like will mostly result in a poor game. There is a big shortage of female game designers and I think that it is this that is the big problem.

[Fairygdmther]

I don't have the money to start my own magazine. But how do you bring more people to buying games (instead of playing free games on the net), if they can't see themselves as the ones playing them? Someone needs to say to the public, that games are for everyone - you can't say that when all you show are teenage boys. A rare commercial shows some somewhat older guys playing football or basketball games. A few show teenage girls, and they're playing DDR (Dance, Dance, Revolution). And you think that I am type-casting!

I want to see a commercial that has Dad (40) in the living room, playing Halo; Mom (38) is the home office playing URU; middle daughter (11) in her room, playing Nancy Drew; sons (8, 9) in their room playing Super Monkeyball II; and oldest daughter (16) playing ICO in her room; youngest daughter (6) playing Pokemon. And yes, I've typecast them, too. But the theme could be that video and PC games are for the whole family, together or for each individual. Games are for everyone, not just kids anymore. This includes all three consoles, GBA, and PC. A commercial like this, put out by one of the gaming commissions, but shown on national TV would do wonders. Or, if this sounds too isolating, put them all in a "game room", a large family room, where each has their own area: Dad on the couch in front of big screen TV, Mom at her desk, youngest daughter on couch next to Dad, others in a corner of their own. This way, Mom and Dad could still supervise what all their darlings are doing.

[BacardiJim]

I refuse to accept that ones taste is defined by what age and sex one is in.And thus the entire market research and advertising industries grind to a screeching halt with the revelation that everything they have been doing and all the social science and statistics they have been applying to their fields for the last century is meaningless in the face of ragnar's disbelief.

In the wake of the discovery of "Ragnar's Theorem," all political polling is also abandoned as useless, quickly followed by polls of all types. The entire science of sociology becomes seen as occultism, with formerly repsected sociologists burned at the stake...

[Bard09]

If adventure gaming is looking for a "holy grail" to kick-start the funk it's in, I personally doubt demographic research is the solution.

If anything, statistics and demographic studies have ruined the mediums they ironically seek to improve. There have been innumerable clashes between directors and marketing companies, ultimately stifling innovation in film. Terry Gilliam's battle to save the "negative" ending of his movie Brazil is a great example. Another good one in the gaming industry is the Fallout I/II creators, Black Isle Studios, folding like a sack of bricks because Interplay pays for research showing the future of gaming to be in console development.

The best games, adventure or not, seek to bridge demographics, not define them.

[BacardiJim]

You appear to be using the word "success" in a manner with which I am unfamiliar. You seem to be defining it as "achieving something of artistic merit."

Look at any mass market form of entertainment. Britney Spears, John Grisham, Rob Schneider. None of them have achieved anything remotely like artistic success. Yet they have each made zillions of dollars for their respective producers/agents/managers. They have certainly been a financial success.

If the idea is to bring adventure games out of their "niche," then market demographics are exactly the ticket, because that way lies financial success. "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the public."

Of course, that means one in fifty games will actually be decent instead of one in ten. But there will continue to be those rare games (just like there are rare films and musicians) who are successful both artistically and commercially. Games like Syberia and The Longest Journey.

Or... to put it another way... ask Terry Gilliam if Brazil was a "success" and ask the bigwigs at Universal the same question and I bet you will get two completely different answers. Yes, I consider it one of my all-time favorite movies, and maybe the best movie released since 1985. But I was one of less than a dozen people in the theater when I saw it, and it was a commercial flop. And it remains very much a "niche" film.

[Bard09]

And it remains very much a "niche" film.

Sad but true. It totally bombed, despite accolades. I know we've gone off on a huge tangent to the original thread, though :P

I am idealistic, I guess. I think that the only way mediums can, at the very least, *become* successful is having quality on their side. DVDs never really took off until the Matrix DVD showed how neat of a format they could be. I think adventure games are sorely in need of at least one high quality title that can bridge or even destroy the existing demographic gaps.

It's just my opinion that this is not going to happen unless a developer gets it's act together to make it happen, despite demographic evidence. Uru is the only new title I see with the potential to make it happen, but word remains to be said on the results.

[ragnar]

And thus the entire market research and advertising industries grind to a screeching halt with the revelation that everything they have been doing and all the social science and statistics they have been applying to their fields for the last century is meaningless in the face of ragnar's disbelief.

In the wake of the discovery of "Ragnar's Theorem," all political polling is also abandoned as useless, quickly followed by polls of all types. The entire science of sociology becomes seen as occultism, with formerly repsected sociologists burned at the stake...

Reread that and read correctly Jim. I didn't say "There is no correlation between age/sex/fatness/whatever and what games you play", I said "I refuse to accept that ones taste is defined by what age and sex one is in.". I.e there is no implication that me being a certain sex/age makes me like a a certain type of game. Taken over the whole group there might be tendencies towards some types of games, but that doesn't say anything about specific individuals within the group.

I would find it more interesting to divide people by education level than what sex they are for example.

[Bastich]

DVDs never really took off until the Matrix DVD showed how neat of a format they could be.

I think you are quite mistaken on that one. I owned over 1000 DVDs by the time that came out. I don't even see what was so neat about it. And even though my friends weren't into films as much as me, the least of them owned about 40, with others in the 2-300 range. DVD was doing just fine before the Matrix. In fact, if the Matrix was never even made, neither the film industry nor the DVD format would be any less than it is today.

[BacardiJim]

I didn't say "There is no correlation between age/sex/fatness/whatever and what games you play", I said "I refuse to accept that ones taste is defined by what age and sex one is in."
That's a completely valid point, ragnar. And I would keep it in mind if I only wanted to sell ONE copy of a game. But the fact is that production and marketing of ANY product does rely on tailoring both the product and the advertising based on such things as gender, age, income, and, yes, education level.

It's the way business works. Those of us who live outside the demographic averages can rail about it all we want, but it is a fact of life. Do you think I am happy that Survivor is the most popular TV show in America? Or that they made a dozen Ernest movies? Not at all. But I have to live with it. Because that's what sells.

[Fairygdmther]

I feel URU won't be the savior of the adv games. Why? For every gamer who loved Myst games, there have to be 3-4 who wouldn't touch anything like them again with a ten-foot-pole. So many people view Myst and its clones as totally incomprehensible puzzles, wandering around a beautiful but empty environment, and an obscure story. Not enough action! Not enough interaction. And every third game that comes out is billed as a Myst clone.

It is possible that Syberia II could do it, though, followed by TLJ II. These both were third person games with good stories, characters that you cared about, the environments weren't empty, and you had things to do. Both games brought non-adv gamers to the fold. The sequels will no doubt bring more. And they are being done by the original writer. Benoit Sokal, and Ragnar Tornquist might not be household names to any but the most devoted adv gamer, but after the sequels, they will be able to write their own ticket to fame. Hopefully they both will continue to write unique adventures that can enchant the public, and draw more developers into seeing that the Egypt, Atlantis clones have had their day. It's time to branch into new areas. But developers, and financial backers need to see that it works first.

[ragnar]

That's a completely valid point, ragnar. And I would keep it in mind if I only wanted to sell ONE copy of a game. But the fact is that production and marketing of ANY product does rely on tailoring both the product and the advertising based on such things as gender, age, income, and, yes, education level.
Yes, I know that the marketing of things work that way. But there is no need for _us_ to fall into the same trap? I also think (as I said earlier) that it most often becomes rather bad if the game designers try to do a game that they think someone else will like (but wouldn't appeal to themselves very much). There need to be a more diverse range of game designers with tastes of all sorts. No marketing division in the world will be able to sell games to people with some specific taste if there isn't anyone to make the games for them.
It's the way business works. Those of us who live outside the demographic averages can rail about it all we want, but it is a fact of life. Do you think I am happy that Survivor is the most popular TV show in America? Or that they made a dozen Ernest movies? Not at all. But I have to live with it. Because that's what sells.
Survivor is very popular here in Sweden too (it is called Robinson though) and it was we who invented the bally concept.

[Ninth]

Qu'es ce que c'est? Je ne comprends pas. Il faut que vous faites un choix - un homme ou une femme, n'est-ce pas? Peut-etre vous avez une " identity crisis"? Ah, le pauvre! Pardonnez ma francais, s'il vous plait. Il y a quelques annes depuis les etudes.

:D Nice.
I'm a young man, but according to your post, I've got older women tastes, like most young men here. Thus my identity crisis.

[Fairygdmther]

Ninth - Here's what I mean - not in any order

Young men:
FPS, RTS, auto racing, extreme sports, action, platform games

Young women:
RPG, MMORPG, quick online games, adventure games, FPS, action

Men over 30:
War games, RTS, auto racing, RPG, MMORPG, FPS, adventure games

Women over 30:
quick online games, adventure games, RPG

This, again, is merely my own observation, just a quick look at who plays what genre by age and sex. And of course there will be exceptions in every group. I'm in the over 30 women's group, and have played FPS (Halo, Max Payne), platform, GTA III, Tony Hawk 2X. But my preference is for adventure games. But I'd be very surprised if a valid statistical survey didn't agree with my observations.

B]And of course there will be exceptions in every group. [/B] I brought down my own statement. Do you understand the concept of exception?

No statistical survey can account for any individual. It is the sum total of a groups facts. I can assure you, my intent was not to emasculate you.