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dtp entertainment - Chris Kellner interview

While the rest of the adventure world looks on with envy, the genre is beginning to flourish in Germany. It's tempting to write off this phenomenon to something in the water, but the answer can be largely attributed to something much more practical--aggressively marketing and promoting the games.

Spearheading this German renaissance is dtp entertainment, a publisher with ambition, focus, creative ideas, and a commitment to the development of high quality adventures. We can only hope that other publishers take note of their accomplishments, and begin using dtp as a blueprint for a successful publisher model. Adventure Gamers is fortunate to be joined for a live interview by Chris Kellner, the International Public Relations Manager for dtp, and an unabashed adventure fan himself. It's hard not to be motivated by his infectious energy and enthusiasm, as he shares his vision for the genre, and outlines dtp's upcoming lineup of Tony Tough 2 (new screenshots included), Nibiru, and Runaway 2.

LM: Hi Chris! Thanks for taking the time to talk with Adventure Gamers.

CK: Hello, Laura, and it is nice to meet you!

LM: Tell me a little bit about yourself. I know you used to work with the German press and then you came to work with dtp?

CK: Yeah, that’s right. I studied history and political science, and then worked as a junior reporter with the German Press Agency. The media business is very difficult to get into in Germany, and there weren’t many jobs for journalists. So I thought, why not do something else? I ended up combining my love for adventure games with what I had learned. And here I am PR Manager for dtp and responsible for their adventures. It is a fun job, because you can actually live the dream of a kid who wants to make a computer game. I am not a developer, but I have some influence over the games and what titles we pick up. It is something I dreamed of when I was around 15 or 16--getting into the games business. Creating games. The first titles I played, and my favorite, are the Broken Sword games.

LM: So let’s talk a bit about dtp. I have to ask, why focus on adventure games and why now?

CK: Well, there are several reasons. The first is that two years ago, the adventure was dead in Germany. All the people who loved adventure games in the past thought, "That can’t be right. They just can’t be gone like that." So someone had to find a really good adventure, take it, and see how it would sell. We did this with Runaway, which was a huge success in Germany. With this title, we just kicked things off. Now, adventures are coming back to a form of their old glory. It’s a development that I think we started in Germany.

LM: dtp has been described as guerilla marketers. In other words, you rely more on creative marketing tactics in promoting your titles over the standard money-intensive old school methods. Is this accurate? What do you do that is different than most publishers?

CK: I think we do more than almost any would do for an adventure title. We always watch the campaigns of our competitors to see what they do for their adventure games. For example, for Syberia II in Germany, we thought they did virtually nothing. Adventures are not that big; you can’t just sit back and say, “Well okay… they will sell no matter how few press releases we do or preview versions we send out.” That’s just wrong. You really have to bang a drum for adventures and go all out. Send press releases every week and tell people what they want to know about them, what the game is like, send off screen shots, send off wallpapers, do interviews. You have to do more and more and try to reach people every way that you can. You have to be creative about the channels you put your information into. We just don’t go out and say, “Okay, here’s an ad for the game and adventure magazines.” Perhaps we say, for this game we need the mystery magazines on the Internet who report on mystery books and related stories.

LM: I certainly agree with that sort of cross-identification with books, as do many out there in the adventure community. What does this mean for the games you sell?

CK: To be successful with adventure games, you have to be creative in marketing strategies and reach the people. And not just the usual people who are gamers. You need to reach those who wouldn’t go out and buy a gaming magazine or ever buy a shooter. These are people who don’t read anything about games. We go out and say we have games that are like interactive books--interactive stories, like Sherlock Holmes or even Black Mirror. Let’s do something, let’s work together. And it works. My mother, for example is a great fan of mystery novels and she started to play all these games.

LM: It appears dtp is extremely aggressive in this genre. What’s next? Are you thinking of moving into a more direct involvement in the development of games?

CK: Well, Tony Tough 2 was our idea from the very beginning. The first part was highly successful in Germany and we just loved small Tony. We thought, why not make a second part with modern graphics and techniques? Then we went to the developers and said, “Let’s do it; let’s do Tony Tough 2!” We were willing to finance it and got the international rights so we can sell it in foreign countries. It is our first adventure development project that we initiated.

Image #1

LM: What made you focus on Tony Tough? There were problems with the first game--the voice talent used, the non-linear gameplay, and sluggish sales that some attributed to being a cartoon-styled adventure. What made you decide a sequel was worth the cost?

CK: We knew about the difficulties of the first title and we just said, okay, to place that successfully in the market, we have to do something special. So we engaged the top comedians in Germany as voice actors. Because this title is full of humor, they fit in. It worked out really well. The first game ended up performing well in our country, so we thought we could do this again. By applying modern graphics and techniques, so we wouldn’t get bashed in the ratings, we thought the second part would be even better.

LM: The look of the sequel is dramatically different from the first game, and has generated early positive comments. Who made the decision to go in such a dramatically different design direction?

CK: We said the new part has to look really different. The developers said, “Okay, we have this engine,” which they had used for another game that was never released in Germany. It is a modern engine that allows for pre-rendered background graphics and 3D character models. It is what they are calling 2.5D, similar to the Syberia engine. They said since we have this engine, we can use it for TT2 and be really creative about it. We didn’t tell the developers how to do the graphics style or what scenes they should use. They came up with this. When we saw it we thought, “that is Edward Hopper trying to make a computer game, so let’s do it--that’s fine!” Why should all adventure games look the same or tell the same stories about dark castles and knights of the Templar?

In the first game, more mature and aesthetically-aware graphics based on the 50s and The Triplets of Belleville were used. The intent was to stress that the game was an evolution both in taste and in gameplay. The developers were also trying to show that this product was not a shallow comedy for kids, and mock the fact that it was a genre that some viewed as challenging but appalling point & click gaming. The result was a misleading graphical approach that unfortunately hurt the first episode.

LM: Tell me about the story of TT2.

CK: It is based upon one day in Tony Tough’s life, when he is 13. It is his first case as a detective. He has to solve the mysterious abduction of his neighbor’s niece. It has something to do with the alien landing on Roswell. It is a very weird and strange story, and the story begins with Tony at his school. I don’t want to tell any more and spoil the game.

LM: Are there any recurring characters?

CK: There are a few references to them. There are no characters such as Jack O'Lantern and Pantagruel as the tapir. Pantagruel was originally a dog and a part of Tony's adolescent traumas. He will be present in his original form and there will be some connections to the first episode. But it will not be necessary to have played the first to enjoy this game.

LM: Is it going to have the same sort of inventory-based puzzles, like those in the first game?

CK: The puzzles will be a little bit easier than those before. They were very hard in that game. From what I have seen now, the inventories are managed very much like the last Broken Sword game.

LM: Oh, they will rotate like the inventory menu did in BS3?

CK: I think so, yes. I don’t know that this is final yet. It could change in the future, before the game is published. I also think the way the inventory is used is a new approach in gaming and design. You propose an action to Tony and he will decide if this action makes any sense or not and he will tell you. For example if the use of an item isn’t going to work, he will say something like, “You are stupid!” or something like that. If combining items will work, he will say, “Okay… I will do this.” It is a newer approach to the interface.

LM: This sounds like you have a pseudo A.I. going on here, where you get feedback from the main character, which clues the gamer into what to do next.

CK: There were little aspects of this in the first TT game. Tony would remark on things in the environment and say for example, “Oh, you have played a lot of adventure games, haven’t you?” or “Why would you do that? Are you playing with a walkthrough?” However, in the new game, Tony makes his remarks about the actions you are considering, rather than side comments about the environment.

LM: Is this going to be non-linear like the first one?

CK: Not exactly. You have several locations in this little town in New Mexico where Tony lives, and you can go from place to place there whenever you want. But the game itself progresses in a more linear direction. It is much more interactive than a strongly linear game, as you can choose to move between the locations when you like. This creates a much better atmosphere.

There are a few stages in the game where you can solve multiple puzzles at once. Tony Tough 2 is more linear than the first game, but less so than most other games. I think the balance will be just delightful. The developers wanted to evolve from past mistakes, yet still keep a desirable level of non-linearity to the gameplay.

LM: When can people expect to see this game in the stores?

CK: It will release in Germany around the first of May. Which means we will show it at E3. Several German publishers will be there and we will have our own booth as well.

LM: Will the worldwide release follow the German release date closely?

CK: It may be that other publishers will have the game for release in May. But, I think that would be a very early date. It is more likely it will release worldwide in early June through July of this year.

LM: Now, of your announced titles, Nibiru is actually being released first. I know that it is an original game that was first published a few years back. The developers, Unknown Identity, have now updated the game for a new worldwide release. I assume this means they modernized some features of the game?

CK: It is coming out the 15th of March. It is also being released in France and may come out there first. As for other countries, I don’t know if they have an English publisher yet. The story is essentially the same as in the original, but they used a totally new engine for this version.

LM: Then they completely re-built the game rather than just adding enhancements or improved cinematics?

CK: It is the same engine as used in Black Mirror, but it has been totally enhanced. I believe it is called the Advanced Graphics Design System (AGDS) and was developed in-house. It has a higher standard resolution and you now have anti-aliasing available to make the character implementation into the backgrounds very smooth. You now have full 3D models rather than animated sprites, which means you can make these characters bigger on the screen, with more details--especially the main character, Martin. The game is so detailed you can spot every wrinkle in his jeans!

LM: Well, if they are nice jeans, that’ll be great!

CK: Ha ha, yes! This version has a high level of detail. The backgrounds are even more beautiful than those in Black Mirror. The length is also good, as I think there will be close to 20 to 25 hours of gameplay for an average adventure player.

LM: In what way are the puzzles different than what players might expect?

CK: I actually think the puzzle design is better than what you had in Black Mirror. You have to think a little bit more in this game. They are a little bit harder, I think, but the puzzle density is higher. I only played the first three chapters, which are fairly linear. You have to solve several puzzles in each location, including one or more larger ones. You also do not have to do much running between locations to solve them. One example would be this situation in the game where there is an old man sitting outside a library. You need to get into the library, but the clerk inside won’t listen to you. The old man has a way in but he is busy feeding birds. You will find a person who can give you something to help get his attention and will trade them something you have already picked up near there. Everything you need to solve this will be found in that immediate area.


Image #2

LM: Hmm, so there will be multiple parts you have to complete to solve the larger challenge, and you can complete those and locate the required inventory items all within the same basic environment where you find the main challenge?

CK: Exactly. Another kind of puzzle is where you have a password you need, and it is logically related to something in that place. You will discover it by searching carefully and examining things. There also might be some mechanical puzzles that are logically related. Examples might be that you will have to figure out some mechanized lock or make some strange device work. This actually created a problem for us here in Germany, because there were some symbols used in puzzle construction that are illegal to use in Germany--SS runes and swastikas were used in a few instances because this tunnel was built and used by the Nazis. But all of these emblems are illegal here. We had to have the developers insert a special section just for our version.

LM: The plot sounds very esoteric with all this talk about secret places, the Nazis, and supernatural overtones. What can you tell us about it?

CK: You play a young archeologist named Martin Holan. He is a young Czech studying in France. He is asked by his uncle, who is an archeology professor, to go study a tunnel that has been found by a construction company in western Bohemia. Apparently this tunnel had been built during the 2nd World War by the Nazis. They were doing some very strange research in this tunnel about a mysterious tenth planet alleged to exist in our solar system. It is called Nibiru. This name comes from the ancient Sumerians in Mesopotamia, who believed in the existence of this planet and gave it this name. Their legends claim that it is the beginning of all life on earth, and also has a source of unlimited power. So apparently the Nazis were after this power. However, when the 2nd World War ended, they had to flee this area and were never able to finish their experiments. Now it has been uncovered, and you shall investigate it. The first place you will go is to Prague to meet a contact person about all of these events. You go to meet her at her apartment, learn that she has been murdered, and that is where the adventure begins.

LM: How many characters would you say are in the game and how are the dialogues handled?

CK: I believe around 35 characters are in the game. Many of them have only minor roles in the storyline. But you do have to talk to and meet a lot of people as you play the game. The dialogue system is very similar to what was used in Black Mirror. There will be icons for each topic, but they will only show up as a possible choice if you can talk about it with that person. So if you see an icon about a building, then you know you will have questions available to ask that person about this.

LM: Are you saying that if there is nothing new to be learned from that person on that subject, then it won’t be available as an option from your dialogue choices?

CK: Yes. This way you won’t repeat dialogues. You just chat with them about what you want from all available topics and in the order in which you want. You do not waste time with something you really don’t need for the story. It’s a very basic dialogue system. But it works very well and it didn’t annoy me. We had criticism in another game about the dialogues being too long and that there were too many of them. Nibiru will definitely be at the other end of that range.

LM: There seems to be a number of supernatural-based games, like Nibiru, in the adventure genre. Do you think any particular type of adventure game does better than another?

CK: It may be different in other countries, but from our experience, I generally do not think comic adventures sell as well as other styles. The more realistic the adventures are, the more sales you have. You have to be careful with a comic style. It can be difficult. Runaway was an exception, because it had a comic look but the game itself had a realistic story, an adult story. There were funny parts in it, but not that many and not too many freaky funny parts. You also had this “they love each other, they hate each other” couple as the main characters. These are some of the reasons why the sales were so good for that title. On the whole, you can say that realistic titles sell better than comical ones.

LM: Runaway had really great characters in it as well. Is the sequel still scheduled to release the 2nd Quarter of this year?

CK: It will be out this year, but I think that Quarter two is a very optimistic date. I would say it is more accurate that it will be released in the fall of 2005. This is of course in Europe only. I am not sure it has a North American publisher now.

LM: So what will happen to Gina and Brian in the sequel?

CK: I can tell you that Gina is abducted at the beginning of the game. It’s up to Brian, of course, to rescue her, which will take him all around the globe. He’s a cooler guy because he has been through some character development since the last game. It will also be longer than the first one. The first part was quite short--around 10 to 15 hours. The sequel will be around 30 hours.

LM: Ah! That’s great. I really enjoyed the first one very much.

CK: Runaway is really a great game. I always say it is a model for how an adventure game should be. Maybe it has a comic look, but the controls, the puzzles--everything is done right with this game. Even the pace is right where it should be.

LM: It also has some of the most diverse and unique characters in a game since the Monkey Island games.

CK: Yes, this is a very strong part of the first game. Some of the old characters are in the new game, as well. So you will meet some friends like Sushi, and I believe, Oscar.

LM: I heard a lot of people e-mailed Sushi based on the address supplied within the game. Did this happen with you guys at dtp?

CK: We had e-mail accounts set up as well for Sushi and for Gina. Many people wrote these accounts. We really tried to answer them all as seriously as we could. This was sometimes difficult as we received a lot of mail from all these young guys who wanted pictures of Gina.

LM: Oh, that is funny! So how did you answer them?

CK: I wrote them as if they were talking to Gina! Sometimes I wrote that Gina was very sorry, but she had a contract with Playboy and so can’t give out any pictures. It never seemed like too much to do, though. We don’t have an arrogant attitude at dtp, and try to answer every mail that we get.

LM: Do you use any of this in your marketing for the new game?

CK: We made postcards at Christmas time with Gina wearing a Santa Claus hat and postcards from different places saying, “I’ll be back next year.” Stuff like that. I try to personally check in at all the forums and post on our behalf; answer any questions and things like that. I have even posted at the Adventure Gamers forum.

Image #3

LM: I know you don’t know a lot at this early stage in development, but Gina and Brian…do they ever get together?

CK: There were some allusions at the end of the first game. I assume their relationship will be difficult, because so much of the game’s strength comes from the sexual tension in the game. Like in Broken Sword 3. When I got to the end of that game, I was going, “Come on you stupid guy--kiss her!” But then, well, that was the end. I don’t think those two will get together in the 4th part either. It is the same way, I think, for Gina and Brian.

LM: There has been a great deal of web chatter about innovation and gaming. If you were going to make your ideal adventure game, what would you put in this game?

CK: Atmosphere. The most important thing in a game is atmosphere. So you think, I am looking forward to playing this evening and I am really drawn into this world. You should forget about everything else around the computer. I really like mysteries and great stories that create this feeling.

Also, there are many small mistakes even modern adventure game developers always do again and again. For example pixel hunting or having to cross over a large space time and again, and you can’t even make your character run. Nobody likes time-based puzzles and yet you will find them in adventure games. This just sucks! Nobody wants it. I would really love to have a conference with ALL the adventure game developers around the world and tell them, “Just get rid of these action sequences; get rid of time limit puzzles!” This is something very annoying. You always get very beautiful titles offered by adventure game developers. You think, “Oh, that is very nice!” So you play it and you say, “Okay, this will really work.” So then you are, say… ¾ of the way through, and then you have this very annoying time limit puzzle. You just think, “Oh my god, I hope none of the reviewers will get to this point and find out there is an action and time limit sequence in here.”

LM: Yes, I really hate those moments too. I don’t know why they do that, either.

CK: I don’t know any adventure players who like them, and if any action gamers play an adventure game, they don’t like these sequences, either.

LM: How do you address these common mistakes with the developers you're working with?

CK: We've created an in-house document that we send out to the developers, which was really my own idea. It is based on what we picked up over time from the Internet, from forums, fans of the genre, and game reviewers we were talking with. These are issues that seemed to come up all the time. So the idea came up to make this list of things that you should and shouldn’t do when developing adventure games.

These are just the things I hear every day. We, of course, read most reviews and previews very carefully and think about what they say. We try to answer the things that are raised in the previews, but often there is not enough time to do this. So we just try to make it better in the next game.

LM: You know it was just a few years ago that many in the industry declared adventure games to be dead. It is safe to say that with companies like dtp supporting adventure games, the genre looks stronger every day! I know you have to get back to the business of promoting adventure games, but I really am happy you took the time to chat with me. It was a real pleasure!

CK: It has been very nice talking to you, and I will say that adventure games are definitely alive!

 

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